Can anyone tell me whether the art of creating the "Bell Sound" stamp was possible by bootleggers i.e Is it possible to have a bootleg with the "Bell Sound" stamp in the dead wax.

TIA

Can anyone tell me whether the art of creating the "Bell Sound" stamp was possible by bootleggers i.e Is it possible to have a bootleg with the "Bell Sound" stamp in the dead wax.

TIA

Never heard of them doing this Steve.... and can't really see it.... but, hey, who knows eh!....

Anybody else know different ? ....

I have a w/d of Jerry Williams - If you ask me without the Calla label logo but it has the Bell Sound in the dead wax. Remember an old mate of mine, Martin Adams, insisting it was a boot.

I have a w/d of Jerry Williams - If you ask me without the Calla label logo but it has the Bell Sound in the dead wax. Remember an old mate of mine, Martin Adams, insisting it was a boot.

I seem to remember we had this query/chat on another forum re Voices of East Harlem.... the one with the "intro" and "fade" times on.... if you're the same Steve....

Edited January 12, 200619 yr by vaultofsouler

Has this 45' got the date on the label 1973, if yes then it is the reissue, slightly longer mix, with a modified instrumental break.

The original was released in 1965

Has this 45' got the date on the label 1973, if yes then it is the reissue, slightly longer mix, with a modified instrumental break.

The original was released in 1965

Thanks Brett. Its a re-issue then but still feel a bit peeved by the stamp. It makes me think that even the stamps are nothing to go by.

Thanks Brett. Its a re-issue then but still feel a bit peeved by the stamp. It makes me think that even the stamps are nothing to go by.

I don't understand what you're peeved about. First, it's a legitimate repress by the record company so it's entitled to have the name of the pressing plant where it was manufactured on the run off, surely? Because thats what the bell sound stamp is. Secondly, it actually says 1973 on the label so it's not going to be the 1967 issue.

I don't understand what you're peeved about. First, it's a legitimate repress by the record company so it's entitled to have the name of the pressing plant where it was manufactured on the run off, surely? Because thats what the bell sound stamp is. Secondly, it actually says 1973 on the label so it's not going to be the 1967 issue.

OK Pete, calm dowm m8. You've helped me by explaining the obvious that I stupidly missed - that its a legit re-issue. To my credit mate, I have never seen a re-issue with a stamp in the deadwax be it Bell Sound, Nashville Mains or what ever. Thanks for the info.

I don't understand what you're peeved about. First, it's a legitimate repress by the record company so it's entitled to have the name of the pressing plant where it was manufactured on the run off, surely? Because thats what the bell sound stamp is. Secondly, it actually says 1973 on the label so it's not going to be the 1967 issue.

Almost forgot Pete. How much should it sell for - the re-issue that is? Cheers.

souson tried his hand at a couple as we all know, but bell sound, no too difficult, too hot.

anything withi t on must be an official re-issue by the powers that run the show, all attemps to imitate stamps really are poor, look at mel brit. sousons MR all but worked but that seemed to appear on all and sundry records that never had the stamp in the first place. prob down to the pressing contractor anyway.

having said this there are some real dead ringer doo-wop rare items that are sup to be real counterfiets, down to the last ink shades, but i cant say ive seen any, they are too expensive.

is the virtue name done by stamp as well, because surly that must be the least difficult to copy, or is it?

i think besides all the bad copies (all??) at stamps most bootleggers are just too scared to go round imitating the mob, in many cases, and just don t cross that line for fear of concrete grensons, and then im sure if the demand enough the lou beatys of the record world issue, or re issue exact copies of their own tunes anyway.if timing permits.

bell sound are so connected with the industry giants that i feel it would be suicide

surly should read shirley

Bell Sound was not a pressing plant, it was a recording studio with a disc cutting room. The same applies to Virtue, Frankford/Wayne, Masterfonics, NRP, etc. These were studios and / or cutting rooms.

"Bell Sound" would be stamped onto most of the lacquers they cut, from which the negatives, positives and stampers were processed and made at various pressing plants - sometimes numerous plants pressing copies of the same record in different parts of the country. Most Atlantic 45s, for example, were pressed at three different plants: Specialty (east coast), Monarch (west coast) and Plastic Products (south).

All copies would have the "Bell Sound" (or whatever) stamp because each plant would use duplicate metalwork (plates or stampers) which originated from the same lacquers.

So if a repressed or reissued record has the "Bell Sound" stamp in the deadwax, it just means the plant has used the original (or duplicate) plates or stampers.

And yes, it would be possible to make a "Bell Sound" stamp which could fool collectors - especially if the new stamp was a bit blunt to make the impression look worn.

Anything is possible if someone is determined to pull a fast one.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Bell Sound was not a pressing plant, it was a recording studio with a disc cutting room. The same applies to Virtue, Frankford/Wayne, Masterfonics, NRP, etc. These were studios and / or cutting rooms.

"Bell Sound" would be stamped onto most of the lacquers they cut, from which the negatives, positives and stampers were processed and made at various pressing plants - sometimes numerous plants pressing copies of the same record in different parts of the country. Most Atlantic 45s, for example, were pressed at three different plants: Specialty (east coast), Monarch (west coast) and Plastic Products (south).

All copies would have the "Bell Sound" (or whatever) stamp because each plant would use duplicate metalwork (plates or stampers) which originated from the same lacquers.

So if a repressed or reissued record has the "Bell Sound" stamp in the deadwax, it just means the plant has used the original (or duplicate) plates or stampers.

And yes, it would be possible to make a "Bell Sound" stamp which could fool collectors - especially if the new stamp was a bit blunt to make the impression look worn.

Anything is possible if someone is determined to pull a fast one.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

the returns couldn't possibly justify the means, unless hedonism to the ninth...

and i still feel that the power held over the music business as a whole, has to be connected and respected- unions ???

bit cynical today, sorry

the returns couldn't possibly justify the means, unless hedonism to the ninth...

and i still feel that the power held over the music business as a whole, has to be connected and respected- unions ???

bit cynical today, sorry

Hello,

Most of the vinyl pressing plants that exist these days are small concerns and aren't mobbed up. There isn't a lot of money in pressing records, the margins are pretty tight.

And to make a small stamp, such as "Bell Sound", wouldn't be very difficult or expensive.

So anything is possible if someone is determined.

Paul Mooney

Hello,

Most of the vinyl pressing plants that exist these days are small concerns and aren't mobbed up. There isn't a lot of money in pressing records, the margins are pretty tight.

And to make a small stamp, such as "Bell Sound", wouldn't be very difficult or expensive.

So anything is possible if someone is determined.

Paul Mooney

[/quotei think that it would technicaly be hard to produce such a thing, dosent it have to be in reverse i.e contour wise to produce the correct result, wouldn't making such a thing invovlve metal etching processes, in reverse blah blah, and such a major part of the process guarded to die for (get it, die for)

Soussan used Monarch in the 70's, so this is where is where the confusion arises, you need to be aware of the delta numbering system etc., etc, covered on RSF and here several times, see the recent Tomangoes thread for instance.

OK Pete, calm dowm m8. You've helped me by explaining the obvious that I stupidly missed - that its a legit re-issue. To my credit mate, I have never seen a re-issue with a stamp in the deadwax be it Bell Sound, Nashville Mains or what ever. Thanks for the info.

Thats Nashville Matrix - Chris

Almost forgot Pete. How much should it sell for - the re-issue that is? Cheers.

OK Pete, calm dowm m8. You've helped me by explaining the obvious that I stupidly missed - that its a legit re-issue. To my credit mate, I have never seen a re-issue with a stamp in the deadwax be it Bell Sound, Nashville Mains or what ever. Thanks for the info.

Almost forgot Pete. How much should it sell for - the re-issue that is? Cheers.

Sold one last year £40.00 but have seen at £50.00

HB

The problem with all this is toofold. Firstly Stamps can be made no problem- you can order them from a reputable chasing tool company in the States.

Secondly the Stamps can create confusion about whether a disc is genuine or not. On aprevious thread there was questions around whether or not the Yum Yums had stamp in it and somesaid that all ABC demos had it when infact many did not - Come on by jay Traynor would be a good example. So the point is Just because it doesnt have a stamp is it genuine?

The answer is it very well could be depending on the pressing plant used as some majors appranlty used small local plants(often used to rush small quantities) who did not use the stamps. This is still the case today according to Peter Brown who I met last year in New York and does it for a living.

So overall unless you have some writen confirmation about where it was pressed /date etc otherwise known as providence then you cannot trust anything! even with 30 years or so in the business.

The problem with all this is toofold. Firstly Stamps can be made no problem- you can order them from a reputable chasing tool company in the States.

Secondly the Stamps can create confusion about whether a disc is genuine or not. On aprevious thread there was questions around whether or not the Yum Yums had stamp in it and somesaid that all ABC demos had it when infact many did not - Come on by jay Traynor would be a good example. So the point is Just because it doesnt have a stamp is it genuine?

The answer is it very well could be depending on the pressing plant used as some majors appranlty used small local plants(often used to rush small quantities) who did not use the stamps. This is still the case today according to Peter Brown who I met last year in New York and does it for a living.

So overall unless you have some writen confirmation about where it was pressed /date etc otherwise known as providence then you cannot trust anything! even with 30 years or so in the business.

I have loads of ABC demos without stamps, all originals and not all soul 45's either, and they are radio station stamped with dates, and no one would have a reason to re-press some of these tracks anyway as no demand.

Edited January 16, 200619 yr by Netspeaky