By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded.

Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.).

By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures.

But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ?

JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again.

This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then.

So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. 

ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records)  -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down. 

Edited August 9, 2024Aug 9 by Roburt

3 hours ago, The Yank said:

     According to the liner notes of the "Boy Meets Girl" album, recording sessions took place at the following studios- Fame Studios- Muscle Shoals, United Sound- Detroit, Terra Shirma- Detroit, Ardent Studios- Memphis.

Don Davis was listed as one of the producers on these songs- "Hold On This Time" - William Bell and Mavis Staples, "It's Unbelievable..." - Pervis Staples and Carla Thomas, "Strung Out" - William Bell and Mavis Staples. These are the ones I think are the most likely to have used Terra Shirma or United Sound. But any of the producers listed could have had their sessions in Detroit. 
 

I believe that more of the backing tracks were cut in Detroit, the lead vocals in Muscle Shoals ... I guess Don Davis would only have been credited as the producer if he did both the backing & vocal tracks (could be wrong though). 

Is it known -- in his STAX PERIOD -- how often Don Davis spent time darn souf (Memphis , Muscle Shoals) and for how much of his time he was just back in his home Detroit studio ?

I assume some Stax acts, the Dramatics for instance, cut most of their stuff in Detroit, though Ron Capone (a southern based producer) gets credits on some of their stuff. I'd also guess that other Don Davis associated Stax acts worked mainly in Detroit. However, Don Davis did loads of Johnnie Taylor tracks; many of them being Memphis cuts.

Outside the US, Stax had 'crossed over' to the white market but back in the States they were seen as being a BLACK RURAL SOUTHERN outfit, so white radio didn't play their stuff. Stax execs were determined to remedy that situation. I guess, with black Detroit tracks being big pop hits & getting extensive white radio plays, they saw that a Detroit / Memphis hybrid might held them to cross over to the American white market. THUS Don Davis would be a very valuable hire with his Motown, Golden World, Groovesville experience.

Davis was used to get that 'hybrid sound' on cuts such as Carla Thomas's "Pick Up The Pieces" 

 

Edited August 19, 2024Aug 19 by Roburt

Jumping back to a previous post ... 

Ila Vann was working in a NY studio with Gene Redd, the results of this being her Roulette 45 "Can't Help Lovin That Man Of Mine" issued in April 67. Around the same time she was singing with Gene's sister Sharon Redd on her Veep 45 "Half As Much", also an April 67 release. He'd been working for Musicor in NY with the Platters just a couple of months earlier. So it seems Gene was back in NY before the start of 1967. He seems to have started working with the Platters in NY around May 66 as he was responsible for their 45 cut "Alone In The Night (Without You)" which was released in August 66. The group's Nov 66 released 45 look like older recordings & their 'Detroit related work' came next with the 1st released results of this being "With This Ring" early in 67. So it seems Gene Redd was back working in New York  for other labels (not GW linked) by late spring / early summer 1966.

Jumping back to GW / Ric Tic ... is it known when J J Barnes contract was bought by Motown, as he was free of Motown and had his 1st Groovesville 45 out by early April 67. In June 66 he had been touring on a package with Motowner's Tammi Terrell & the Contours (with the Holidays also being part of that revue) ... Tammi having been signed by Motown early in 1966.

Edited August 22, 2024Aug 22 by Roburt

4 hours ago, Roburt said:

Jumping back to a previous post ... 

Ila Vann was working in a NY studio with Gene Redd, the results of this being her Roulette 45 "Can't Help Lovin That Man Of Mine" issued in April 67. Around the same time she was singing with Gene's sister Sharon Redd on her Veep 45 "Half As Much", also an April 67 release. He'd been working for Musicor in NY with the Platters just a couple of months earlier. So it seems Gene was back in NY before the start of 1967. He seems to have started working with the Platters in NY around May 66 as he was responsible for their 45 cut "Alone In The Night (Without You)" which was released in August 66. The group's Nov 66 released 45 look like older recordings & their 'Detroit related work' came next with the 1st released results of this being "With This Ring" early in 67. So it seems Gene Redd was back working in New York  for other labels (not GW linked) by late spring / early summer 1966.

Jumping back to GW / Ric Tic ... is it known when J J Barnes contract was bought by Motown, as he was free of Motown and had his 1st Groovesville 45 out by early April 67. In June 66 he had been touring on a package with Motowner's Tammi Terrell & the Contours (with the Holidays also being part of that revue) ... Tammi having been signed by Motown early in 1966.

Thanks Roburt, for that added  information about the timing of Gene Redd's new projects in New York.  Based on everything I read and heard, I would guess that Redd never gave up his residence in The New York Metro Area, and just rented a small apartment in Detroit, and commuted back and forth.  It seems that he didn't work more than a half year, at most, for Wingate.  And he must have made some short trips to New York  on several extended weekends, during that time.

J.J. Barnes, The Holidays, and Carl Wright were NOT Motown artists when that Howard Theatre show was held.  They, like Gene Chandler, were on the show's roster because they agreed to appear for an agreed upon price.  Gordy, in addition to purchasing The rights to The Golden World Records name, their  recording studio and office building and land it was on, all the Wingate labels' master tapes and old record stock, demo recordings, Myto Music Publishing Co.,  and the artist contracts of J.J. Barnes, Edwin Starr, and The Fantastic Four, and the songwriting and producer contracts of Richard Morris and Al Kent.  This sale was finalised on September 10, 1966.  Freddie Gorman returned to Motown around that time, but that move was unrelated, as he had left Golden World/Ric-Tic well before the sale.  Here is an announcement of the 50-year anniversary celebration of that event by Motor City Flashbacks from "The Soundtrack of Your Life" crew in 2016:

Robb, once again you've come up with important info.

As stated earlier on this thread  >> . Edwin  undertook a UK tour in October 66. It's said that when he left the US, he was a Ric Tic act but when he returned from his UK tour, he was a Motown act. That tour was organised by Roy Tempest and ran from the 14th to 29th October. However it seems he came across to the UK ahead of the 'official tour' beginning. Maybe Polydor asked him over for promotional purposes, they released 45's by him in April &  July 66 (+ December 66), These 45's did well for him here & continued to sell for months after each was issued (2 were released on a 'back to back' Polydor 45 as late as Nov 68). "Stop Her On Sight" was in the UK pop charts in May / June / July 66. "Headline News" in August / September 66. With those facts, it seems to me likely that Polydor had him come over to the UK in September 66, ahead of his full UK tour commencing.    

I'd guess that GW / Ric Tic's sale to Motown would have been kept under wraps while the negotiations were going on, so no doubt Edwin had no idea of what was happening in early September 66. It's stated on the net that when Edwin came over here for his 'October' tour, it was his 3d visit to the UK. No doubt his earlier ones were instigated by Polydor for promo purposes. I'd guess his 2 UK hit 45's would have had him jumping on a plane at short notice in an effort to boost the chart standings of his records. 

Did Edwin get to appear on the top UK TV music show  (RSG) on either of those earlier visits ? He certainly met Pete Stringfellow on one UK visit ahead of October (Pete being in charge of crowd control on RSG). I do know Edwin was on RSG in late October 66. It's also stated that Edwin played the Twisted Wheel in September 66 and he can't have done that if he was back in Detroit. I wasn't (yet) attending the Wheel, as my 'local' niter / dayer was Sheffield's King Mojo (till early summer 67). One of Edwin's first UK club dates was at the Mojo in mid August 66 (he played the niter session & had no hotel, so Pete S took him back to his mother's house where Edwin slept on the floor). On Edwin's early UK gigs he was 'usually' backed by the Senate. Anyone know that group's history from that period (they backed a lot of Tempest's visiting US soul acts -- Garnett Mimms, etc ).  

So Edwin being in the UK from September to late October 66 would give credence to him leaving the US as a Ric Tic act but returning home as a Motown act. 

Edited August 23, 2024Aug 23 by Roburt

Seems Ed Wingate selling GW to BG in September 66 was a good move as 1967 was a very turbulent year in Detroit.

Jobs were going as US car makers struggled to sell as many units as they had in the past. On top of that, racial tensions were really on the rise plus all the protests against black guys being shipped over to Viet Nam to die. The tensions  culminated in the famous July riots in the city. The Algiers Motel incident on the nights of July 25–26, 1967, happened due to the 12th Street riots occurring nearby. At the motel, 3 black kids were killed and nine other people abused by a combined force of Detroit Police officers, Michigan State Police officers, and Michigan Army National Guardsmen. It was the incidents on those nights & over the following weeks that made BG decide to quit the city & relocate to LA (+ his desire to get into the movie biz). 

Edwin Starr wasn't from Detroit, so must still have felt a bit like an outsider. Many Detroit based music biz folk upped sticks and moved to Chicago, LA & the like after the riots. I guess part of the reason that Edwin spent so much time in the UK in 67 / 68 was coz he could get lots of work here and things back in Detroit were in turmoil.

I know in lots of US cities hit by riots, both those in Detroit and other cities in 67 and the more widespread ones in April 68 (after MLK's killing), the night clubs / theatres had to shut down for a good number of weeks as it was too dangerous to open. Plus many potential audience members were too scared to venture out after dark.

Edwin was in the UK in September / Oct 66. He returned here to tour again in Jan / Feb / March 67, then again in May / June 67. He was here even more in 1968; 3 tours in all -- Jan / Feb 68 + May / June 68 + Sept / Oct 68.

He was on at the Wheel in Oct 68 (& during his earlier UK tours) ...

Many times we view the soul music / record biz in isolation and ignore the 'outside forces' that were changing it for non-musical reasons. 

 

Edited August 23, 2024Aug 23 by Roburt

Just wanted to make a minor correction to an earlier post . Tammi Terrell was signed to Motown in 1965, the company released her first single in November of that year (#27 on the list) -

 

Edited August 23, 2024Aug 23 by The Yank

Detroit 1967 before & during the time of the riots ...  

Edited August 23, 2024Aug 23 by Roburt

10 hours ago, Roburt said:

Seems Ed Wingate selling GW to BG in September 66 was a good move as 1967 was a very turbulent year in Detroit.

Jobs were going as US car makers struggled to sell as many units as they had in the past. On top of that, racial tensions were really on the rise plus all the protests against black guys being shipped over to Viet Nam to die. The tensions  culminated in the famous July riots in the city. The Algiers Motel incident on the nights of July 25–26, 1967, happened due to the 12th Street riots occurring nearby. At the motel, 3 black kids were killed and nine other people abused by a combined force of Detroit Police officers, Michigan State Police officers, and Michigan Army National Guardsmen. It was the incidents on those nights & over the following weeks that made BG decide to quit the city & relocate to LA (+ his desire to get into the movie biz). 

Edwin Starr wasn't from Detroit, so must still have felt a bit like an outsider. Many Detroit based music biz folk upped sticks and moved to Chicago, LA & the like after the riots. I guess part of the reason that Edwin spent so much time in the UK in 67 / 68 was coz he could get lots of work here and things back in Detroit were in turmoil.

I know in lots of US cities hit by riots, both those in Detroit and other cities in 67 and the more widespread ones in April 68 (after MLK's killing), the night clubs / theatres had to shut down for a good number of weeks as it was too dangerous to open. Plus many potential audience members were too scared to venture out after dark.

Edwin was in the UK in September / Oct 66. He returned here to tour again in Jan / Feb / March 67, then again in May / June 67. He was here even more in 1968; 3 tours in all -- Jan / Feb 68 + May / June 68 + Sept / Oct 68.

He was on at the Wheel in Oct 68 (& during his earlier UK tours) ...

Many times we view the soul music / record biz in isolation and ignore the 'outside forces' that were changing it for non-musical reasons. 

 

Good observation, Roburt.  Detroit was not the place to be between 1966 and 1968.  I'm sure that played a part in Edwin's long stays in Europe.  Lucky for him that the Motown-Detroit Soul craze was heating up right during that period, and he was in high Demand, especially in The British Isles and Western Europe.

Robb made mention of all the talented people who were working at / for Golden World ahead of BG buying Ed Wingate out. Just to reinforce that fact, below is a montage of just a few Golden World single releases put out over a short period ... people involved on these included Ed Wingate, Al Kent, George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Mike Terry, J J Barnes, Don Davies, J Bratton, Gene Redd, R Morris, Joe Hunter, K Peterson, Billy 'the Kid' Jackson (aka Gene Dozier) + Edwin Starr, the Fantastic Four, Laura Lee and many more.

While Edwin Starr was ALWAYS a big draw on live UK club dates, by 1967 the music scene in the UK was changing. Lots of soul cover bands were changing; going over to pop, progressive and blues rock material. So lots of clubs / venues that had booked loads of US soul acts were moving on to book new (or just renamed) Brit acts ... a  perfect example of this can be seen from the acts that Brian Epstein / the Beatles were booking @ the Saville Theatre in London ...  Garnett Mimms with Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Fairport Convention, the Who (no longer a mod group), Tim Rose, Donovan all mixed in with the likes of Jnr Walker, the 4 Tops and Edwin Starr (with Cream) ... 

 

On 09/08/2024 at 09:02, Roburt said:

By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded.

Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.).

By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures.

But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ?

JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again.

This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then.

So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. 

ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records)  -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down. 

As I understand it, based on the artists own comments in interviews, or what Motown and Detroit music industry insiders told me or commented in interview articles, or in their published books, most of the Detroit-based singing artists that worked for Motown and left, left because they were unsatisfied with the amount of their records that were issued, and with the amount of their contracted pay they were not getting (being held by Berry and parcelled out very slowly - saying it was for their benefit, and were unsatisfied with such little artistic control.  And a similar story was told by songwriters not getting enough of their songs recorded by top acts, or not getting enough of those that DID get recorded, issued and marketed with a decent push, and many left because they wanted to produce records, and weren't allowed to do so.  Several group members and single artists said that Motown wanted to sign them but they refused based upon what they heard from existing or former Motown artists, about the holding of money, and the company only pushing their favourite few single artists and groups in each category: female Poppish group, female rawer Soul group,  male pop/Soul crossover group, male dance/novelty group, falsetto lead groups, tenor and baritone lead groups, alto or soprano groups, etc.  Almost NONE of them were "fired" - or not offered a new contract when their previous one was up.  Most of them refused to re-sign because they knew they had no chance to break into the favoured group or favoured single artist status, or they would never be allowed to produce.  Don Davis, Don Juan Mancha, Mike Terry, J.J. Barnes, Emanuel Laskey, Wilbur Jackson, Jackey Beavers, Clyde Wilson (Steve Mancha), Richard Morris, Herman Griffin, Mary Wells, Brenda Holloway, Patrice Holloway, Marc Gordon, Ed Cobb, Norman Whitfield, Holland, Dozier, and Holland, Freddie Gorman, Popcorn Wiley, Tony Hester, Sidney Barnes, George Clinton, The Parliaments, Mickey Stevenson, Kim Weston, Jimmy Ruffin, The Spinners, Jack Ashford, Joe Hunter, Robert Staunton, Robert Walker, etc.  I could go on and on.  All of them left because of the reasons I mentioned above.  The only employees I can recall, who were actually "fired" were Eddie Singleton, and Robert Dobyne.  The only one I can recall whose contact wasn't offered a renewal, was Marv Johnson, and that was probably just because of the move to L.A. and Berry's need to concentrate on films, and so, have less artists.  I guess that Martha and The Vandellas, Junior Walker and The All Stars, The Contours, The Marvelettes, Velvelettes and most of the other secondary or lesser Detroit acts were not renewed during that 1969-73 transition period.

I seem to remember James Epps saying that The Fantastic Four refused to sign with Motown in the mid '60s when first scouted, and apparently when Motown bought out Golden World.  Motown bought their contract when they purchased The Second Ric-Tic label in 1968, and Wingate was allowed to hang on for a couple months after that to release 5 more records (mostly by The Detroit Emeralds and The Flaming Embers.  Motown gave the group some good material to record.  But they never put even remotely enough marketing push behind their issues.  So the group left to go to Armen Boladian's Westbound/Eastbound Records so they could help their career instead of being "sat upon" with no chance to break through.  Aretha Franklin was courted by Gordy.  Her father advised her against signing with Motown, and she became a mega star with Atlantic, because she was their most talented rawer style female Soul singer.  She was offered  the contract there before Gladys Knight came to Motown, and both before and after Gordy got rid of most of his "Bluesy" female singers like Mable John, LaBrenda Ben, Hattie Littles and Liz Lands.  I doubt that he'd have dropped Aretha at that time, however.

Gwen Owens, when she started out in the early 1960s said she refused to sign with Motown because she'd be lost in a sea of artists.  By 1972, her manager got her an interesting project with Motown, but teaming up with Fame Studios.  So she took it.  But Motown didn't put any serious push behind it, so it didn't come to anything worth much for her.  So she went on to other opportunities.  The Dramatics also mentioned something about not wanting to sign with Motown.  They got their breakthrough with Stax/Volt, and even working there with Detroit producers.  I remember lots of stories like that.  I can't remember all the groups and artists, but there were many.

By the way... You mentioned in the initial post that Berry Gordy was not interested much in The Fantastic Four (like J.J. Barnes) because they were too much like acts Motown already had that were doing well.  Barnes was too much like Marvin Gaye (and Marvin was his brother-In-Law) so that situation was a bit touchy.  But which Motown act were The Fantastic Four almost a clone???  I think they were very unique.  I don't think they were too much like The Four Tops or Temptations or The Spinners.  The Contours were just about disbanded by then.  I think Gordy could have made room for them on The Motown Pantheon.

 

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

. . . Gwen Owens, when she started out in the early 1960s said she refused to sign with Motown because she'd be lost in a sea of artists.  By 1972, her manager got her an interesting project with Motown, but teaming up with Fame Studios.  So she took it.  But Motown didn't put any serious push behind it, so it didn't come to anything worth much for her.  So she went on to other opportunities.  The Dramatics also mentioned something about not wanting to sign with Motown.  They got their breakthrough with Stax/Volt, and even working there with Detroit producers.  I remember lots of stories like that.  I can't remember all the groups and artists, but there were many.

 

 

Gwen teamed up with Terry Woodford / Wishbone Productions in Muscle Shoals (after Terry & his partner Clayton Ivey quit Fame to go on their own). That's how Gwen's "You Better Watch Out" was recorded. Then Motown signed up Woodford & Ivey as MOTOWN SOUTH. The pair had previously leased out there tracks to the likes of WB, Capitol, Polydor, etc. But Motown wanted them & their acts, so they signed. They worked with the likes of the Commodores, Supremes, GC Cameron, Thelma Houston, Tempts, etc + cut their own acts for Motown -- Reuben Howell, Bottom & Co. AND GWEN OWENS. Gwen told me she wasn't happy with the situation and insisted she be 'released from Motown' after none of her tracks were released after 6 months. So her 45 came out on Casablanca. 

BUT, Motown retained the rights to some tracks she'd cut & some of them escaped (years later) on a BBC Radioplay compilation LP (this has been discussed on SS in the past). 

Anyway, Woodford / Ivey soon teamed her with 2 other females in the disco group HOT and they went on to enjoy good sales & chart hits. 

P.S. ... the BBC Radioplay LP from Rudy Love was also a Woodford / Ivey production job. This album was leased to the BBC by Wishbone Prods themselves and not by Motown ( I believe it wasn't cut by Woodford / Ivey as part of their Motown deal).

Edited August 24, 2024Aug 24 by Roburt

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

As I understand it, based on the artists own comments in interviews, or what Motown and Detroit music industry insiders told me or commented in interview articles, or in their published books, most of the Detroit-based singing artists that worked for Motown and left, left because they were unsatisfied with the amount of their records that were issued, and with the amount of their contracted pay they were not getting (being held by Berry and parcelled out very slowly - saying it was for their benefit, and were unsatisfied with such little artistic control.  And a similar story was told by songwriters not getting enough of their songs recorded by top acts, or not getting enough of those that DID get recorded, issued and marketed with a decent push, and many left because they wanted to produce records, and weren't allowed to do so.  Several group members and single artists said that Motown wanted to sign them but they refused based upon what they heard from existing or former Motown artists, about the holding of money, and the company only pushing their favourite few single artists and groups in each category: female Poppish group, female rawer Soul group,  male pop/Soul crossover group, male dance/novelty group, falsetto lead groups, tenor and baritone lead groups, alto or soprano groups, etc.  Almost NONE of them were "fired" - or not offered a new contract when their previous one was up.  Most of them refused to re-sign because they knew they had no chance to break into the favoured group or favoured single artist status, or they would never be allowed to produce.  Don Davis, Don Juan Mancha, Mike Terry, J.J. Barnes, Emanuel Laskey, Wilbur Jackson, Jackey Beavers, Clyde Wilson (Steve Mancha), Richard Morris, Herman Griffin, Mary Wells, Brenda Holloway, Patrice Holloway, Marc Gordon, Ed Cobb, Norman Whitfield, Holland, Dozier, and Holland, Freddie Gorman, Popcorn Wiley, Tony Hester, Sidney Barnes, George Clinton, The Parliaments, Mickey Stevenson, Kim Weston, Jimmy Ruffin, The Spinners, Jack Ashford, Joe Hunter, Robert Staunton, Robert Walker, etc.  I could go on and on.  All of them left because of the reasons I mentioned above.  The only employees I can recall, who were actually "fired" were Eddie Singleton, and Robert Dobyne.  The only one I can recall whose contact wasn't offered a renewal, was Marv Johnson, and that was probably just because of the move to L.A. and Berry's need to concentrate on films, and so, have less artists.  I guess that Martha and The Vandellas, Junior Walker and The All Stars, The Contours, The Marvelettes, Velvelettes and most of the other secondary or lesser Detroit acts were not renewed during that 1969-73 transition period.

I seem to remember James Epps saying that The Fantastic Four refused to sign with Motown in the mid '60s when first scouted, and apparently when Motown bought out Golden World.  Motown bought their contract when they purchased The Second Ric-Tic label in 1968, and Wingate was allowed to hang on for a couple months after that to release 5 more records (mostly by The Detroit Emeralds and The Flaming Embers.  Motown gave the group some good material to record.  But they never put even remotely enough marketing push behind their issues.  So the group left to go to Armen Boladian's Westbound/Eastbound Records so they could help their career instead of being "sat upon" with no chance to break through.  Aretha Franklin was courted by Gordy.  Her father advised her against signing with Motown, and she became a mega star with Atlantic, because she was their most talented rawer style female Soul singer.  She was offered  the contract there before Gladys Knight came to Motown, and both before and after Gordy got rid of most of his "Bluesy" female singers like Mable John, LaBrenda Ben, Hattie Littles and Liz Lands.  I doubt that he'd have dropped Aretha at that time, however.

Gwen Owens, when she started out in the early 1960s said she refused to sign with Motown because she'd be lost in a sea of artists.  By 1972, her manager got her an interesting project with Motown, but teaming up with Fame Studios.  So she took it.  But Motown didn't put any serious push behind it, so it didn't come to anything worth much for her.  So she went on to other opportunities.  The Dramatics also mentioned something about not wanting to sign with Motown.  They got their breakthrough with Stax/Volt, and even working there with Detroit producers.  I remember lots of stories like that.  I can't remember all the groups and artists, but there were many.

By the way... You mentioned in the initial post that Berry Gordy was not interested much in The Fantastic Four (like J.J. Barnes) because they were too much like acts Motown already had that were doing well.  Barnes was too much like Marvin Gaye (and Marvin was his brother-In-Law) so that situation was a bit touchy.  But which Motown act were The Fantastic Four almost a clone???  I think they were very unique.  I don't think they were too much like The Four Tops or Temptations or The Spinners.  The Contours were just about disbanded by then.  I think Gordy could have made room for them on The Motown Pantheon.

 

Amazing insight and knowledge Rob, as always. Gordy is music's Don King of boxing.

I hope you're well and manging to relax a bit Robb my old friend. 

Best wishes

Peter

It seems not everything was plain sailing on the good ship Golden World ...

I asked Sidney Barnes ... what's the story behind this song / recording ... CAN'T SHAKE IT LOOSE by PAT LEWIS ... am I right in thinking the writers were George (Clinton), J J Barnes (not Sidney ?), J J Jackson & Rose M McCoy .. with you, George & Mike Terry producing .... . . . quite a combination ...

Sidney Barnes "Ok here I go setting the record straight on this one. Ed Wingate came into the room early one morning and said to me and George who were looking for something to do, said. I want you guys to write and produce a song on Pat, Pat Lewis who had been doing a ton of background work with us for a while. And he said I want the title to be "I'm Into Something I cant Shake Loose". This was something he would do often. So I sat down at the piano with George and we wrote the song. Then Mike came and wrote the arrangements. That next day we recorded it with Pat at that was that. Now me & George thinking everything was cool cause we had been doing things like this so often, and we were constantly busy. So it wasn't until the Supremes recorded and released it on their "Love Child" album did we noticed that some extra names had been added as writers on our BMI Statements. So here's what happened (since you asked). Joann Jackson was Ed Wingate's girl friend and President of Ed's publishing co. Myto Music. She had brought her friend Rose Marie Mcoy in from New York to write for the company. I met Rose Marie when I was in New York working with J.J. Jackson a few years before, and she was a good writer. But I'll never really know if they were trying to SCREW me around or made some sort of mistake while filling it. I finally straightened it out years later with BMI and collected my back royalties. But by then the damage had been done. It really upset me there for a while, because I was always honest and trusted everybody i worked with in the business. But, J.J. Barnes (bless his soul) had absolutely nothing to do with it, at all. Neither did Joann Jackson, or Rose Marie McCoy. George and I wrote it, and Ed Wingate named it". 

6 hours ago, Peter99 said:

Amazing insight and knowledge Rob, as always. Gordy is music's Don King of boxing.

I hope you're well and managing to relax a bit Robb my old friend. 

Best wishes

Peter

Thanks Peter,

Hi Peter,

Yes, I'm well, at least for my age of almost 80 years.  I'm semi-retired, just working on a few stories a year for Dutch Disney, doing some language translations for novels and comic book graphic novels with no work deadlines, so no pressure and I only work on them when I feel energetic.   And the work is enjoyable.  I should have written a book, each, about the development of Detroit's and Chicago's R&B and Soul music recording industries years ago, while I had the energy.  Now it's too late.  I'll leave that to others.  But it's good to do something enjoyable, and mind-challenging, to keep the grey matter from disappearing.  And It keeps my savings from melting away too fast. Which is good, because I have good genes, most of my father's family living well into their 90s, and a couple into early 100s, and my mother's family living well into their 80s, with several into their 90s.  I'm still very mobile and svelte, and take 2 long power walks most days. I can still run, if I need to, but it hurts my knees.  But, I'm happy to still be here, and happy for every morning I wake up feeling relatively good.  I hope it's similar for you.  

It's really nice that we still have educational threads like this periodically.  Unfortunately, this sort-of-thing is petering out (no pun intended 🤪) at Soulful Detroit.

 

Robb, good to hear you're keeping well. I know what you mean about having had to 'slow down' as I'm just a few years behind you (75 now).

It's obvious that a full book (s) is asking too much of you now BUT you do have amazing knowlwdge in many fields of interest to us here.

Brits only really stated to head over to the States to 'crate dig' from around 1970. My brother was in the merchant navy from the mid 60's to the end of that decade & sailed on a rotational basis from the UK to Argentina & the Great Lakes. As such, he would dock in places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc on a regular basis. I'd ask him to go to local record stores & pick me up any soul records he saw in the 'discount boxes'. Trouble was, he wasn't a soul fan (into folk music), so he had no idea what he was looking for. LP's were easier for him (due to the cover pics), so he did bring me back albums by Spyder Turner, Freddie Scott & the like (but just a handful).     

To get my fix, I had to do mail order to Randys & Ray Averys postal service. 

ANYWAY, back to my request. We know little or nothing about 'crate digging' in & around Chicago & Detroit in the 60's ... you know a great deal indeed.

It would be great to have you start a thread about your record hunting escapades in US cities back then.  

Edited August 25, 2024Aug 25 by Roburt

On 24/08/2024 at 23:24, Roburt said:

Robb, good to hear you're keeping well. I know what you mean about having had to 'slow down' as I'm just a few years behind you (75 now).

It's obvious that a full book (s) is asking too much of you now BUT you do have amazing knowlwdge in many fields of interest to us here.

Brits only really stated to head over to the States to 'crate dig' from around 1970. My brother was in the merchant navy from the mid 60's to the end of that decade & sailed on a rotational basis from the UK to Argentina & the Great Lakes. As such, he would dock in places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc on a regular basis. I'd ask him to go to local record stores & pick me up any soul records he saw in the 'discount boxes'. Trouble was, he wasn't a soul fan (into folk music), so he had no idea what he was looking for. LP's were easier for him (due to the cover pics), so he did bring me back albums by Spyder Turner, Freddie Scott & the like (but just a handful).     

To get my fix, I had to do mail order to Randys & Ray Averys postal service. 

ANYWAY, back to my request. We know little or nothing about 'crate digging' in & around Chicago & Detroit in the 60's ... you know a great deal indeed.

It would be great to have you start a thread about your record hunting escapades in US cities back then.  

 

That's something I'd like to see with others also talking about their experiences.  And we've had several of that type of thread here over the years.  But as for ME starting a thread like that now, it'll have to wait for a while, as I'm very busy on some projects right now, and it took me hours and hours just making the posts on this thread alone.  A big factor is the typing, as i'm terrible at it, using the hunt-and-peck system, and due to my shaky hand, I hit a LOT of double keys and wrong keys, and so I end up taking a lot of time editing typos, and always missing some, I have several look-throughs, noticing more.  Being a perfectionist, I end up doing a LOT of deep thinking, to make sure I've covered every pertinent aspect.  So, composing an account of my record scrounging in those 2 cities, plus Los Angeles (for 7 years), would take me a long time to think deeply, remember the various big strikes, or interesting happenings, like fighting with Steve Propes (the bloke who wrote the book on how to make Thrift Shop Finds) to get records from a find when we both arrived at the same thrift shop at the same time (and he claimed the thrift shops in Long Beach (CA) were HIS territory (as he had that area of town wrapped up first (and gave the workers pies)🤣.  He delivered pies for a pie bakery, and bribed thrift shop workers near his delivery route to not put out newly received records, saving them for him to see first.  He was incensed that they didn't always follow those rules (despite getting day-old pies regularly!  🤣  The adventures of a record scrounger!

You see how detailed I am on a note just to say I'm NOT posting now!  

It's much easier for me to avoid spending a lot of time posting when I'm busy with other things, if I'm just answering specific questions with a relatively narrow scope, or adding to someone's post to which I can add relevant information when I get such prompts, rather than having to think deeply and compose my thoughts and my writing piece.

So I hope you understand.  I'll be back when I have more time, or when others post on a subject that I can add relevant information fairly quickly from having a narrow scope or specific question.

Thanks for your interesting threads.

Edited August 26, 2024Aug 26 by Robbk

I asked Sidney for more info in relation to this thread's topic. As always, he was most helpful and came up with loads more interesting facts. 

SIDNEY BARNES:  Gene Redd was a very good friend of mine. I actually started working with him right after Motown (NY). Gene had a little Jazz group that he was grooming that became Kool & The Gang. He became a very busy independent producer in New York during the mid 60's. Gene talked many labels into funding his studio sessions, using Jean Carter and myself as his go to backing singers on a lot of his productions. Many times we would spend all day or even numerous days in the studio working on sessions with him. He was sly, slick and very smooth. All the blacks in the click back then were amazed that Gene could get major labels to give him a budget and an advance on an artist that he was working with. Gene was cool, soft spoken, and as talented and ruthless as they come. But I liked the guy a lot. We hung out together every chance we got coz he was into the music as much as I was. He was always coming up with a new act or starting another big project. I remember Gene booking 30 musicians plus Jean and I. We all recorded two whole days of tracks. Track after track, hour after hour, because he was a perfectionist. However, Gene couldn't make a deal on the artist he'd recorded and nobody got paid. It was a big mess, But we loved the guy, he was a genius of sorts. He recorded Shirley (J) Scott, a young lady that I later feel madly in love with. After that I never worked with Gene again. He got too ruthless and head strong. So I left him alone and stuck with just George (Clinton) and Mike (Terry) while working in Detroit. Gene was a very good producer though and a great guy with a good eye and ear for talent.  

As you can see from the above,  Sidney worked on many NY studio sessions in conjunction with Gene. These included sessions on Shirley's tracks. So Sidney got to know her well & he even fell in love with her. As he said he didn't work with Gene at all when they were both in Detroit, I asked about the sessions with Gene & Shirley and where they took place. Sidney confirmed that Shirley & his efforts were laid down in a NY studio ... but he thinks Gene may have had the instrumental tracks for her cuts done in Detroit.

Sidney wasn't too happy that nothing (commercial success) resulted from her recordings, as he wanted her to stay around. However, he tells me she returned home and wasn't heard of again (in the record biz). Guess Sidney was just someone she worked in the studio with & when her 45 did next to nothing, Gene Redd just moved onto his next project (the Platters for Musicor ?).

18 hours ago, Roburt said:

I asked Sidney for more info in relation to this thread's topic. As always, he was most helpful and came up with loads more interesting facts. 

SIDNEY BARNES:  Gene Redd was a very good friend of mine. I actually started working with him right after Motown (NY). Gene had a little Jazz group that he was grooming that became Kool & The Gang. He became a very busy independent producer in New York during the mid 60's. Gene talked many labels into funding his studio sessions, using Jean Carter and myself as his go to backing singers on a lot of his productions. Many times we would spend all day or even numerous days in the studio working on sessions with him. He was sly, slick and very smooth. All the blacks in the click back then were amazed that Gene could get major labels to give him a budget and an advance on an artist that he was working with. Gene was cool, soft spoken, and as talented and ruthless as they come. But I liked the guy a lot. We hung out together every chance we got coz he was into the music as much as I was. He was always coming up with a new act or starting another big project. I remember Gene booking 30 musicians plus Jean and I. We all recorded two whole days of tracks. Track after track, hour after hour, because he was a perfectionist. However, Gene couldn't make a deal on the artist he'd recorded and nobody got paid. It was a big mess, But we loved the guy, he was a genius of sorts. He recorded Shirley (J) Scott, a young lady that I later feel madly in love with. After that I never worked with Gene again. He got too ruthless and head strong. So I left him alone and stuck with just George (Clinton) and Mike (Terry) while working in Detroit. Gene was a very good producer though and a great guy with a good eye and ear for talent.  

As you can see from the above,  Sidney worked on many NY studio sessions in conjunction with Gene. These included sessions on Shirley's tracks. So Sidney got to know her well & he even fell in love with her. As he said he didn't work with Gene at all when they were both in Detroit, I asked about the sessions with Gene & Shirley and where they took place. Sidney confirmed that Shirley & his efforts were laid down in a NY studio ... but he thinks Gene may have had the instrumental tracks for her cuts done in Detroit.

Sidney wasn't too happy that nothing (commercial success) resulted from her recordings, as he wanted her to stay around. However, he tells me she returned home and wasn't heard of again (in the record biz). Guess Sidney was just someone she worked in the studio with & when her 45 did next to nothing, Gene Redd just moved onto his next project (the Platters for Musicor ?).

This situation is exactly what I had guessed - that Redd recorded all 3 of his Stephanye New York & Washington DC-based artists' vocals in New York; but, we can all clearly hear in the records that Mike Terry arranged the instrumentals, and mostly Motown musicians plus a few other Detroit musicians (George McGregor, Don Davis & others)played on those sessions at Golden World Studios in Detroit.  I think that George Kerr recorded most of his Maltese New York Metro -based artists' vocals in New York, other Than Rusty Day, who recorded at Terra-Firma in Detroit, while their instrumentals were recorded at Golden World.

Edited August 28, 2024Aug 28 by Robbk

As the subject has been touched on earlier in this thread ... I'll add some more details Sidney Barnes gave me that relates to the New York / Detroit connections at Golden World.

Shirley (J) Scott was New York based when recording with Gene Redd (& Sidney Barnes). BUT she wasn't from there. When her 45 didn't take off, she abandoned her plans for a singing career in the Big Apple & returned to her hometown of Jacksonville. Florida and disappeared. Sidney Barnes had fallen head over heals for her ('that young lady' he called her). I'd guess from his reaction, that she was quite a 'looker' back then. No idea if she continued singing when back in Florida, but she left Sidney heartbroken at the time. The NY studio session that Sidney did with Shirley & Gene was the last time Sidney worked with Gene. After that, he relocated to Detroit and worked in partnership with George Clinton & Mike Terry. 

 

Edited August 30, 2024Aug 30 by Roburt

On 25/08/2024 at 21:52, Robbk said:

That's something I'd like to see with others also talking about their experiences . . . .   composing an account of my record scrounging in those 2 cities, plus Los Angeles (for 7 years), would take me a long time to think deeply, remember the various big strikes, or interesting happenings, like fighting with Steve Propes (the bloke who wrote the book on how to make Thrift Shop Finds) to get records from a find when we both arrived at the same thrift shop at the same time (and he claimed the thrift shops in Long Beach (CA) were HIS territory (as he had that area of town wrapped up first (and gave the workers pies)🤣. 

ROBB, Just a quick question on this subject. Where were you trawling for discounted soul records back then (in Chicago & Detroit say). Was it just local black 'mom & pop' record stores, lots of thrift stores, strange locations (a furniture store that had bought out a closed record stores stock or the stock of a local record label). OR did the big 'chain' record outlets also have cheap soul 45's in cut-out boxes (coz the distributors salesmen were sourcing them with such 45's to keep them sweet) ?  

2 hours ago, Roburt said:

ROBB, Just a quick question on this subject. Where were you trawling for discounted soul records back then (in Chicago & Detroit say). Was it just local black 'mom & pop' record stores, lots of thrift stores, strange locations (a furniture store that had bought out a closed record stores stock or the stock of a local record label). OR did the big 'chain' record outlets also have cheap soul 45's in cut-out boxes (coz the distributors salesmen were sourcing them with such 45's to keep them sweet) ?  

I checked mainly the sources in bold above, plus Woolworth's and Walgreen's (discount stores) which periodically sold cut-out 45s for 10¢ each, and cut-out LPs for 50¢ each, later $1.00 each, plus United Record Distributors (I had a friend there who let me buy small boxes of 25, or five 45s of each record I wanted, at the wholesale price, which started at 35¢, and later, was 50¢ each).   I didn't buy records at "Big Chain Record Stores". The few of those that existed didn't carry almost any non-crossover Soul non-big hits.  Secondly, I don't remember ever going to big chain record shops, like HMV in London.  Maybe there were such US stores, but I don't remember any.  Maybe I just went to a few early, but saw there was nothing of interest to me, and just put them out of my mind forever, because I never found anything of interest in mainstream record shops specialising in Pop, C&W, and Classical music.  I don't recall distributors'  salesmen trying to push cut-out Soul 45s on Mainstream record chains, there would have been no market for them.  That type of chain wouldn't want to take up valuable space in their shops with records they couldn't move with low profit margins- even IF they could move them.  I'd be shocked to find out that was happening in Chicago or Detroit.  Maybe that happened for a short while in New York-New Jersey, and Philadelphia Metro Areas.  But, I doubt even that.  Where did you get that idea?

I agree - if the big chains did carry cutout Soul 45's there might be a small table with a few hundred 45's sealed in plastic or you could buy a mystery box  of 45's at a better price - 

 

Thanks for the answers. . . .  I used to get long lists from a NY area record (cut-out) warehouse from around the late 60's. Oldish (4 months+ 45's) by acts who'd had hits or were on 'important labels' like Motown, Atlantic, Okeh would be on offer at 25c or 50c each. The more obscure label / artist's 45's would be on offer at 10c each. There would be many pages to each list; 1000's of 45's to choose from. I seem to recall that if I went for a big bunch of 10c 45's, the post & packing to the UK would be as much as the records themselves.  

Edited September 2, 2024Sep 2 by Roburt

34 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Thanks for the answers. . . .  I used to get long lists from a NY area record (cut-out) warehouse from around the late 60's. Oldish (4 months+ 45's) by acts who'd had hits or were on 'important labels' like Motown, Atlantic, Okeh would be on offer at 25c or 50c each. The more obscure label / artist's 45's would be on offer at 10c each. There would be many pages to each list; 1000's of 45's to choose from. I seem to recall that if I went for a big bunch of 10c 45's, the post & packing to the UK would be as much as the records themselves.  

Those warehouses didn't have any way to get advertising to individual record collectors.  If I'd been offered listed, individual obscure non-charted small label records at 10¢ each, I certainly would have bought them, just as I bought them from Woolworth's, Walgreens, and people like Ray Avery, Music Man Murray, etc.  Those stores and outlets were also customers of those record warehouses.  I was not able to come up with lots of cash to look up the record warehouses, and go buy from them in volume.  Also, I was still in school, so had no time to hawk and sell my extras to finance original big purchases.  Also, I didn't want to end up as a record seller to make a living.  I was taking a heavy science major course in high school, to be able to have a career in environmental science.  So had no time to make record collecting/rare record selling my life's work.  By the end of the 1970s I had become disillusioned in the environmental consulting business, as government agencies and politicians were ignoring my reports.  So I  started attending art school to work towards becoming a cartoonist and animation artist, while becoming a co- owner in Airwave Records, and working for them, as well.  I didn't scrounge for records much, at all, after 1972, when I moved part-time to The Netherlands, and was otherwise started working on vaulted recordings projects at Motown, starting in 1974.  I assume that some of those warehoused records were the source of Woolworth's and Walgreen's 10¢ /$1.00 sales, and the record walls at Ray Avery's and Music Man Murray, and maybe even John Hillyard's stock. 

14 hours ago, The Yank said:

I agree - if the big chains did carry cutout Soul 45's there might be a small table with a few hundred 45's sealed in plastic or you could buy a mystery box  of 45's at a better price - 

 

I never found anything good in Woolworth'sn 3 for $1.00 pack.  They usually put common charted records as the 2 outside viewable records, and the 3rd was usually a fairly obscure Pop artist - nothing I could even trade.  Why should I have paid 35¢ apiece for records I couldn't use, when I could pay then same price for a rare an absolutely new mint obscure Soul record at United Distributors.  I was averaging maybe 17¢ a record overall, with my quantity buys at a set low price and thrift store finds at 10¢ apiece, and record stalls at flea markets, and junk and furniture stores.  I used to find whole collections of old R&B inside the old record album folders (not just 78s, but also 45 folders of that same '40s style album books).  Some collections went from the late '40s into the early '60s.  The '60s Soul 45s in those old late '40s and early '50s album folders looked strange, but I got some great records that way.

I did much better with Woolworth's loose individual 45s for 10¢, often getting over 100, sometimes even over 200 if I hit the sale right after they were put out.   They were sitting upright in long bins.  Having all those loose 45s in record jackets, and my buying over 100 allowed me to scarf up VJ, Chess, Motown, and other company covers, to build up a surplus, so I could always put proper covers on my records in my collection.  Back in the earlier times, it allowed me to stay ahead with Specialty, Imperial, Jubilee, Modern, RPM, Flair, Crown, Duke, Peacock, King, Federal, DeLuxe, Regent, and many of the rare 50s company record jackets.  I did the same thing at the "record wall" places.  That took away time from perhaps hitting one more record site, but I was a perfectionist, wanting my collection to look good.

I also remember those Sutton Golden Hits.  I never saw anything I wanted on the outside front and back.  

8 hours ago, Roburt said:

Thanks for the answers. . . .  I used to get long lists from a NY area record (cut-out) warehouse from around the late 60's. Oldish (4 months+ 45's) by acts who'd had hits or were on 'important labels' like Motown, Atlantic, Okeh would be on offer at 25c or 50c each. The more obscure label / artist's 45's would be on offer at 10c each. There would be many pages to each list; 1000's of 45's to choose from. I seem to recall that if I went for a big bunch of 10c 45's, the post & packing to the UK would be as much as the records themselves.  

Did you find out about them from an advert in a record collector newsprint fanzine-type magazine?  - like the US magazine, "The Record Collector"?  Or did they advertise in a UK magazine or fanzine?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just heard the sad news that Pat Lewis has passed RIHP lovely lady

https://soultracks.com/news-motown-singer-pat-lewis-dies/

Edited September 3, 2024Sep 3 by Blackpoolsoul

20 hours ago, The Yank said:

I agree - if the big chains did carry cutout Soul 45's there might be a small table with a few hundred 45's sealed in plastic or you could buy a mystery box  of 45's at a better price - 

 

One of Global Record's owner Ed Balbier job lot purchase that he sent back here in a shipping container was a few hundred large boxes of 10 singles in a sealed plastic bag much like the top one in the above photo. Over a month or so when all the shop orders had been dealt with I was given the job of opening each bag and sorting the records by title. A pattern soon became obvious, every bag had a couple of Tommy James and the Shondels titles and a copy of Peggy Scott and Jo Jo Benson - Pickin' Wild Mountain Berries. The other records were not that great, the only ones I remember were about a dozen copies of Shane Martin- I Need You, about fifty of Esther Philipps -Nobody But You and one copy of Herb Ward- Honest to Goodness. All the records were major labels and I don't think they were drilled. I can see why Robb and The Yank didn't pay any attention to these bags.

15 hours ago, Robbk said:

Did you find out about them from an advert in a record collector newsprint fanzine-type magazine?  - like the US magazine, "The Record Collector"?  Or did they advertise in a UK magazine or fanzine?

Robb, we're talking about what I was doing as a teenager some 55 years ago, so lots of the detail is lost to me. Those big warehouses didn't advertise in UK music mags, though big importers such as F L Moores & Oldies Unlimited obviously knew of them and bought from them. I used to work for the railways here, so got a good number of free train trips each year. I'd use my freebies to travel down to F L Moores (based in a small town about 50 miles north of London). I probably came across the details of the ONE record warehouse I got lists from while silting thru the stock at F L Moores and coming across a card or listing. Again the exact timing is lost to me now but F L Moore started small (working out of his house), soon tapped into the UK soul collectors market & learnt there was demand he could meet -- his Motown / Atlantic / Stax / Mercury soul 45's suddenly jumped from 5/- each (25p) to 65p / 75p / 99p each when he learnt guys were going to him on a Saturday morning, buying a load of such 45's and selling them for £1+ each that same night at places like the Twisted Wheel. He was soon making decent money & moved to a commercial property above shops in the High Street of his town. The last time I actually went down to his place was a few days after Tammi Terrell died as I bought a TT 45 on that visit (so that would make it March 1970). So I guess my first visit to his house location would have been in 1967/68.

However I managed to get the details / address of the NY / NJ record warehouse, I am really guessing at these days .... BUT as soon as I had it, I posted off an enquiry to them and was duly added to their (monthly ?) mailing list. As soon as the lists started arriving, I began ordering from the place. As well as the postage though, we Brits had to pay import duty on such packages, so you had to know exactly what you were buying to make it worthwhile. I guess I missed many 45's that were soon to be big NS spins ... BUT at the time of the list arriving as was unaware that this obscure artist name & song was pure gold and not some crap pop / C&W thing. OUR LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE back then was quite restricted.

One opportunity I never took up with the warehouse (that I later regretted) was ... the most obscure 45's or those that they only had a few copies of weren't worth putting on their listings (as they had so many to go at that most buyers would be at least vaguely familiar with). These OBSCURE 45's were packaged together & sold as a 'tea chest' full of soul 45's that worked out at around 2c / 3c a copy. But you had absolutely no idea what you'd be getting. ALSO I had just started my first job & so didn't have the spare cash to buy 1000+ 45's at one go.       

I soon had family responsibilities, so my postal orders to NY came to an end & the packages of 45's stopped arriving. After I'd not bought for a while (about 3 lists arriving without a new order) the lists stopped coming. A couple of years later, newbies to the scene from my hometown started calling around at our house to check what 'current' hot 45's I had stashed away in my already extensive collection. Then they'd offer me a good sum to tempt me to sell such 45's to them (but they'd offer me say £2 for a 45 I'd paid 20p for -- though it would be selling @ the Casino for around £5+ -- however I didn't know that). After a while guys such as Snowy asked how I'd picked up so many good US soul 45's and I showed him the old warehouse lists I'd kept. His eyes lit up and he took them away with him. No idea if he contacted the place (if it was still in business) and started to buy from them himself.     

By the way, I also bought from Woolies and from Tandys (Record Shack in the US). But their record sales (45's / LP's) only happened once / twice a year and if you didn't get in early, all the good stuff had gone. 

 

F L Moore didn't really know what the soul collectors scene was all about, being an 'outsider' not a soulster himself. BUT getting lots of orders in for a certain non-hit 45 as soon as it appeared on his listing, he soon learnt that there was demand for certain DISCOTHEQUE HITS (see ad above). So the price on his Motown / soul dance cuts soon went up from 25p to £1 each. 

It was while they were still @ 25p each that I took a risk on 'unknown to me' tracks such as the Soul Brothers Six "You'd Better Check Yourself" which I came across on his shelves  -- mind you, with the group name of the SB6, it wasn't much of a risk. In his original premises (the house), you were allowed to just roam the place going thru the stock on his shelves. By the time he moved to the place above the shops, he had a counter &  you had to stay the customer side of it. He'd show you lists of his stock or you'd ask for stuff by a certain artist or on a particular label -- as soon as he got a lot of requests for a certain title, it's price would increase. 

Does anybody know why Dickie & Ebb Tides is so hard to find on Golden World? I'm assuming the Fleetwood release was first.

The only thing I can think of is that the song title is One Girl, One Boy on Fleetwood but One Boy, One Girl on Golden World.

I guess that would be enough to get it pulled.

Thanks.

3 hours ago, daveh said:

Does anybody know why Dickie & Ebb Tides is so hard to find on Golden World? I'm assuming the Fleetwood release was first.

The only thing I can think of is that the song title is One Girl, One Boy on Fleetwood but One Boy, One Girl on Golden World.

I guess that would be enough to get it pulled.

Thanks.

   The Fleetwood  release was very likely first- Fleetwood was based in Massachusetts and the group appears to from the East Coast.

    I don't think the title had anything to do with the record being  so hard to find. It looks like the record was released in late July/ early August of '66 which was when Motown started talks with Golden World.  Golden World probably decided not to promote it. 

8 hours ago, The Yank said:

   The Fleetwood  release was very likely first- Fleetwood was based in Massachusetts and the group appears to from the East Coast.

    I don't think the title had anything to do with the record being  so hard to find. It looks like the record was released in late July/ early August of '66 which was when Motown started talks with Golden World.  Golden World probably decided not to promote it. 

From the Biddeford-Saco (York County) region of Souther Maine, Dickie Waite led this mid-sixties rock and roll band that was a true fan-favorite of the Greater Portland/Southern Maine region.

Dickie & The Ebb Tides released two 45-RPM singles on Golden World Records; in October of 1966, they released  I've Got A Shadow/One Girl, One Boy with One Girl, One Boy receiving moderate air-play in the Greater Portland market.  That single was followed by I Don't Want Your Love/It's Better Than Making Believe with It's Better Than Making Believe also receiving some air-play from Southern Maine's pop radio stations: 1310-WLOB & 1440-WJAB of Portland and 1400-WIDE from Biddeford/Saco.

     The band played all the local dance halls and venues, including The Palace Ballroom (Old Orchard Beach), St. John's Hall (Portland),  The Expo (Portland), City Hall (Portland), and Clifford Park (Biddeford).  The band opened for The Turtles and The Barbarians (featuring "Moulty" the drummer), both in OOB, as well as The Dave Clark Five and The McCoys, both at City Hall in Portland.  The band broke up due to the Vietnam War draft. 

https://nighttrain04011.tripod.com/id62.html

On 09/08/2024 at 17:02, Roburt said:

By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded.

Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.).

By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures.

But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ?

JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again.

This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then.

So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. 

ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records)  -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down. 

I found this article

https://vancouversignaturesounds.com/hits/and-the-heavens-cried-by-ronnie-savoy/

It quotes the following ?

"Meanwhile, Savoy’s brother Bob Hamilton was inspired to create a record label in Detroit that could rival Motown. Hamilton created Golden World Records and the label Wingate."

12 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I found this article

https://vancouversignaturesounds.com/hits/and-the-heavens-cried-by-ronnie-savoy/

It quotes the following ?

"Meanwhile, Savoy’s brother Bob Hamilton was inspired to create a record label in Detroit that could rival Motown. Hamilton created Golden World Records and the label Wingate."

This refers to Bob Hamilton's (more detailed) goals for Golden World, after JoAnne Bratton, with Ed Wingate's approval, hired him to be chief producer and A&R Man for the company.  She and Ed had, of course, more general goals.  She was new to the business, and needed someone who had already been in the business, to run its nuts and bolts everyday operations, while she supervised, at least until she was well-versed enough to run it herself.  Of Course, the original idea for starting the company was hers, with Ed Wingate's  approval and backing (and he had the final say in things). 

This was somewhat analogous to Mickey Stevenson's position with Motown, with Berry Gordy leaving him overseeing daily operations, but keeping watch on things from above, and having final say in all major decisions.  

Edited September 5, 2024Sep 5 by Robbk

On 24/08/2024 at 18:44, Roburt said:

Sidney Barnes "Ok here I go setting the record straight on this one. Ed Wingate came into the room early one morning and said to me and George who were looking for something to do, said. I want you guys to write and produce a song on Pat, Pat Lewis who had been doing a ton of background work with us for a while. And he said I want the title to be "I'm Into Something I cant Shake Loose". This was something he would do often. So I sat down at the piano with George and we wrote the song. Then Mike came and wrote the arrangements. That next day we recorded it with Pat at that was that. 

Well, it wasn't really the end for Sidney, George & Pat ... here the three of them are singing "Can't Shake It Loose". . . . . RIP Pat ...

Edited September 7, 2024Sep 7 by Roburt

Anyone here have knowledge of Gene Redd returning to Detroit to work in a studio there in the 70's ?

Gene was the producer for the female trio (?) Shalong who had 2 x 45's out in 1973/74. Both of their 45's were released on his Red Coach label. Initially, that would seem to point to them being New York recordings as Gene Redd left Detroit (returning to NY) in 1966. He had been associated with Kool & the Gang since the mid 60's and was in control of their recording sessions thru into the 70's. BUT the other names involved with the group's work (song writers, etc) had strong Detroit links and their 45's were played on Detroit area radio stns. Their 1st 45 even gaining a high chart position on WJLB in late September 73. It seems from this that they were a Detroit based outfit.

Redd was also working with the NY based Carstairs in 1973 & they included ex-Detroit based Cleveland Horne in their line-up, so he obviously had links back to Detroit. Before he'd worked @ GW, he was responsible for the Tommy & Cleve duet 45 that escaped on Checker (Boo-Ga-Loo Baby -- 1966). He also oversaw the duo's 2nd Checker 45 later that year. Tommy & Cleve were Tommy Bullock (a New Yorker) & Cleveland Horne (Detroit based at the time). The songs they cut had strong Detroit connections. Redd had worked in Motown's NY office till it was closed down by BG in 64. After that, he initially kept working in NY on tracks such as the  Delacardos - "Dance little gypsy" (an Impressions sound-alike track).

So did Redd return to Detroit to work on the tracks he cut on Shalong ?

 

WITH REGARD TO .... 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

The guy who cut them @ GW was Gene Redd (not hard to deduce from later posts) ... this was the group in question, playing a club date (see below) ... they broke up on returning from Detroit as their leader didn't want to wait to see if Gene Redd delivered for them. So they never actually got to enjoy any record releases ... What became of their GW master tape over in NY or DC is anybody's guess now ...  

3 hours ago, Roburt said:

WITH REGARD TO .... 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

The guy who cut them @ GW was Gene Redd (not hard to deduce from later posts) ... this was the group in question, playing a club date (see below) ... they broke up on returning from Detroit as their leader didn't want to wait to see if Gene Redd delivered for them. So they never actually got to enjoy any record releases ... What became of their GW master tape over in NY or DC is anybody's guess now ...  

Gene Redd would have had to pay The Fantastic Four for their back-up work, and the musicians for the session, so, unless he made a deal with Wingate for renting the studio for that time, making them partners in the session, he'd have entered the session in the books as "His" as a rental, and paid for the studio time (or just paid the session workers) and kept Wingate from knowing about it.  But the latter would have risked his relationship with Wingate, who would surely dislike being "stabbed in the back", taking a subordinate partner in, who is using his facilities for just his own profit, and not giving him the option to participate in it.  My guess is that Redd wouldn't have wanted to risk his good situation with Wingate, and so told Wingate about the session, played the tapes for him, and asked him whether or not  he'd want to participate in the project and the group.  As it went nowhere, my guess is that Wingate decided that he had enough artists to handle, and he'd stay out of this one. Redd would simply pay for the sessions (the regular studio rental fee) and deal with that group on his own, back in New York.  I'd bet that Wingate got a little peeved that Redd went ahead with the recording session, without consulting him first, and setting up a "tryout" session that HE would also attend.  I'd bet that that incident, plus his sitting on the phone discussing his own private deals on long distance phone calls to The East Coast(Long Distance calls out-of-state cost LOTS of money back in those days), was a good part of the reason Ed ended their partnership, in addition to his being pissed about Redd making a play for JoAnne.

The master tapes would have stayed in Redd's hands.  So we'd have to do research into what happened to his personal master tapes.  Did anyone contact him, or his children, back in the '80s and '90s when The NS DJs and regular US trip-making NS record dealers and scroungers were looking up the 1960s producers?  Is he still with us?  If not, I wonder if someone contacted his kids.

Edited September 11, 2024Sep 11 by Robbk

A picture of the group who cut @ GW under Gene Redd ... 

(we're away on a cruise from today) ... so another update -- telling much of this story as it relates to the group & their lead singer's GW experiences will have to wait till we get back on the 24th.

 

Edited September 12, 2024Sep 12 by Roburt

1 hour ago, Roburt said:

A picture of the group who cut @ GW under Gene Redd ... 

(we're away on a cruise from today) ... so another update -- telling much of this story as it relates to the group & their lead singer's GW experiences will have to wait till we get back on the 24th.

 

I don't remember "The Ankara" nightclub in Detroit.  Was it in Pittsburgh?

 

On 04/09/2024 at 13:29, The Yank said:

   The Fleetwood  release was very likely first- Fleetwood was based in Massachusetts and the group appears to from the East Coast.

    I don't think the title had anything to do with the record being  so hard to find. It looks like the record was released in late July/ early August of '66 which was when Motown started talks with Golden World.  Golden World probably decided not to promote it. 

There was a New York group who recorded for Madison records during the late 1950s through the very early 60s.  Could Dickie and The Ebb Tides hsave morphed out of them?

8 hours ago, Robbk said:

I don't remember "The Ankara" nightclub in Detroit.  Was it in Pittsburgh?

 

There was a New York group who recorded for Madison records during the late 1950s through the very early 60s.  Could Dickie and The Ebb Tides hsave morphed out of them?

I think you are spot on Robb and it was a mob joint

https://www.pressreader.com/usa/pittsburgh-post-gazette/20200809/282359747060974

9 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I think you are spot on Robb and it was a mob joint

https://www.pressreader.com/usa/pittsburgh-post-gazette/20200809/282359747060974

So, as Roburt stated, The 4 + 1 were from Pittsburgh, and made local appearances there.

On 12/09/2024 at 16:57, Robbk said:

 

I think most thought that Maltese was a sub of Golden World but this article from Record World on 4th December 1965 seems to suggest that although Irvin worked as General Manager they were only associated by his connection 

Yes, Four + 1 were Pittsburgh based. The '+1' was Chuck Corby. As I told Robb, Chuck panicked when he hadn't heard back from Gene Redd in just over a month. He went to his local record contact, the guy wanted in on a deal & sent him to NY to cut the 2 original tracks they'd laid down @ GW. Thus a 45 featuring "Man Loves Two" was put out on the SOUND label and then picked up for national distribution by Veep (Little Milton also covered Chuck's song for Chess). The 45 on Veep did OK but Little Milton's version (with Chess pushing it) became the bigger hit).

Chuck has no idea what became of the GW master tape that contained the group's 4 tracks.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2024Sep 16 by Roburt

18 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I think most thought that Maltese was a sub of Golden World but this article from Record World on 4th December 1965 seems to suggest that although Irvin worked as General Manager they were only associated by his connection 

I was aware of this article.  It adds nothing to my guess that Maltese Records was either a partially-owned subsidiary company of Golden World, or an independently-owned label, which had so many production and operational ties to Golden World that it could be defined as a member of The Golden World family of labels.  Whether or not it would be found to have been partly owned by Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton, or Golden World Records, along with New York-based owners, Granoff and Biegel. I do know that much of its operations were handled by Golden World staff, and the label had a production/mastering/pressing/marketing/and distribution deal with Golden World, handled through their normal channels. probably ALL of their background music tracks were recorded by Golden World producers in Golden World Studio, and only some vocal tracks of their East Coast artists were made in New York.  

5 hours ago, Robbk said:

I was aware of this article.  It adds nothing to my guess that Maltese Records was either a partially-owned subsidiary company of Golden World, or an independently-owned label, which had so many production and operational ties to Golden World that it could be defined as a member of The Golden World family of labels.  Whether or not it would be found to have been partly owned by Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton, or Golden World Records, along with New York-based owners, Granoff and Biegel. I do know that much of its operations were handled by Golden World staff, and the label had a production/mastering/pressing/marketing/and distribution deal with Golden World, handled through their normal channels. probably ALL of their background music tracks were recorded by Golden World producers in Golden World Studio, and only some vocal tracks of their East Coast artists were made in New York.  

This article from George Kerr Rob

On 15/08/2024 at 21:35, Wilxy said:

I'd be very interested to learn more about the Don Davis material and moreover which of his tracks were recorded where, and furthermore the 1969 Stax project (Boy meets Girl), as this again is a topic that intrigues me, particularly from a collecting perspective. I was under the impression that the Stax/Volt material under the Groovesville "repertoire" was for example recorded at United Sound, but would like any information to either confirm this or otherwise? Similarly those Stax/Volt  releases also recorded at Terra Shirma?

I recall Carla Thomas saying she didn’t like singing over pre recorded tracks under Don Davis ,preferring a live with band situation .

Chess did well with their cover version of "Man Loves Two" ... (by Little Milton). So a few years later, they returned the favour & signed Chuck to a deal. 

He had a 45 out that he hoped would be a breakthrough release for him. Unfortunately, Chess didn't promote it so his creer didn't take off due to this single ... 

4 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Chess did well with their cover version of "Man Loves Two" ... (by Little Milton). So a few years later, they returned the favour & signed Chuck to a deal. 

He had a 45 out that he hoped would be a breakthrough release for him. Unfortunately, Chess didn't promote it so his creer didn't take off due to this single ... 

Now I know why he sang in the Ankara "Mob" joint in Pittsburg. He even admits himself to the "Mob Boss" connection in his book