Roburt

Robb made mention of all the talented people who were working at / for Golden World ahead of BG buying Ed Wingate out. Just to reinforce that fact, below is a montage of just a few Golden World single releases put out over a short period ... people involved on these included Ed Wingate, Al Kent, George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Mike Terry, J J Barnes, Don Davies, J Bratton, Gene Redd, R Morris, Joe Hunter, K Peterson, Billy 'the Kid' Jackson (aka Gene Dozier) + Edwin Starr, the Fantastic Four, Laura Lee and many more. While Edwin Starr was ALWAYS a big draw on live UK club dates, by 1967 the music scene in the UK was changing. Lots of soul cover bands were changing; going over to pop, progressive and blues rock material. So lots of clubs / venues that had booked loads of US soul acts were moving on to book new (or just renamed) Brit acts ... a perfect example of this can be seen from the acts that Brian Epstein / the Beatles were booking @ the Saville Theatre in London ... Garnett Mimms with Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Fairport Convention, the Who (no longer a mod group), Tim Rose, Donovan all mixed in with the likes of Jnr Walker, the 4 Tops and Edwin Starr (with Cream) ...

Detroit 1967 before & during the time of the riots ...

Sounds good. I'll have to try to get along there (hope there'ill be 45's on offer as were as the albums).

Seems Ed Wingate selling GW to BG in September 66 was a good move as 1967 was a very turbulent year in Detroit. Jobs were going as US car makers struggled to sell as many units as they had in the past. On top of that, racial tensions were really on the rise plus all the protests against black guys being shipped over to Viet Nam to die. The tensions culminated in the famous July riots in the city. The Algiers Motel incident on the nights of July 25–26, 1967, happened due to the 12th Street riots occurring nearby. At the motel, 3 black kids were killed and nine other people abused by a combined force of Detroit Police officers, Michigan State Police officers, and Michigan Army National Guardsmen. It was the incidents on those nights & over the following weeks that made BG decide to quit the city & relocate to LA (+ his desire to get into the movie biz). Edwin Starr wasn't from Detroit, so must still have felt a bit like an outsider. Many Detroit based music biz folk upped sticks and moved to Chicago, LA & the like after the riots. I guess part of the reason that Edwin spent so much time in the UK in 67 / 68 was coz he could get lots of work here and things back in Detroit were in turmoil. I know in lots of US cities hit by riots, both those in Detroit and other cities in 67 and the more widespread ones in April 68 (after MLK's killing), the night clubs / theatres had to shut down for a good number of weeks as it was too dangerous to open. Plus many potential audience members were too scared to venture out after dark. Edwin was in the UK in September / Oct 66. He returned here to tour again in Jan / Feb / March 67, then again in May / June 67. He was here even more in 1968; 3 tours in all -- Jan / Feb 68 + May / June 68 + Sept / Oct 68. He was on at the Wheel in Oct 68 (& during his earlier UK tours) ... Many times we view the soul music / record biz in isolation and ignore the 'outside forces' that were changing it for non-musical reasons.

He's mainly remembered these days coz his big hit was used in the movie 'DIRTY DANCING' ,,,

Robb, once again you've come up with important info. As stated earlier on this thread >> . Edwin undertook a UK tour in October 66. It's said that when he left the US, he was a Ric Tic act but when he returned from his UK tour, he was a Motown act. That tour was organised by Roy Tempest and ran from the 14th to 29th October. However it seems he came across to the UK ahead of the 'official tour' beginning. Maybe Polydor asked him over for promotional purposes, they released 45's by him in April & July 66 (+ December 66), These 45's did well for him here & continued to sell for months after each was issued (2 were released on a 'back to back' Polydor 45 as late as Nov 68). "Stop Her On Sight" was in the UK pop charts in May / June / July 66. "Headline News" in August / September 66. With those facts, it seems to me likely that Polydor had him come over to the UK in September 66, ahead of his full UK tour commencing. I'd guess that GW / Ric Tic's sale to Motown would have been kept under wraps while the negotiations were going on, so no doubt Edwin had no idea of what was happening in early September 66. It's stated on the net that when Edwin came over here for his 'October' tour, it was his 3d visit to the UK. No doubt his earlier ones were instigated by Polydor for promo purposes. I'd guess his 2 UK hit 45's would have had him jumping on a plane at short notice in an effort to boost the chart standings of his records. Did Edwin get to appear on the top UK TV music show (RSG) on either of those earlier visits ? He certainly met Pete Stringfellow on one UK visit ahead of October (Pete being in charge of crowd control on RSG). I do know Edwin was on RSG in late October 66. It's also stated that Edwin played the Twisted Wheel in September 66 and he can't have done that if he was back in Detroit. I wasn't (yet) attending the Wheel, as my 'local' niter / dayer was Sheffield's King Mojo (till early summer 67). One of Edwin's first UK club dates was at the Mojo in mid August 66 (he played the niter session & had no hotel, so Pete S took him back to his mother's house where Edwin slept on the floor). On Edwin's early UK gigs he was 'usually' backed by the Senate. Anyone know that group's history from that period (they backed a lot of Tempest's visiting US soul acts -- Garnett Mimms, etc ). So Edwin being in the UK from September to late October 66 would give credence to him leaving the US as a Ric Tic act but returning home as a Motown act.

Jumping back to a previous post ... Ila Vann was working in a NY studio with Gene Redd, the results of this being her Roulette 45 "Can't Help Lovin That Man Of Mine" issued in April 67. Around the same time she was singing with Gene's sister Sharon Redd on her Veep 45 "Half As Much", also an April 67 release. He'd been working for Musicor in NY with the Platters just a couple of months earlier. So it seems Gene was back in NY before the start of 1967. He seems to have started working with the Platters in NY around May 66 as he was responsible for their 45 cut "Alone In The Night (Without You)" which was released in August 66. The group's Nov 66 released 45 look like older recordings & their 'Detroit related work' came next with the 1st released results of this being "With This Ring" early in 67. So it seems Gene Redd was back working in New York for other labels (not GW linked) by late spring / early summer 1966. Jumping back to GW / Ric Tic ... is it known when J J Barnes contract was bought by Motown, as he was free of Motown and had his 1st Groovesville 45 out by early April 67. In June 66 he had been touring on a package with Motowner's Tammi Terrell & the Contours (with the Holidays also being part of that revue) ... Tammi having been signed by Motown early in 1966.

The Baltimore chart was printed in Billboard. It was the Balto radio chart -- based on the stns in the city (pop & soul). Billboard printed such charts for around 16 cities in most editions of the mag. I don't doubt that WWIN were on the 45's case much earlier as they were the top black stn in the city.

Seems Eddie's Parkway 45 "Don't Stop Now" was expected to do well (chart wise) as it was a BREAK-OUT 45 in certain cities. However, that didn't happen; it's popularity didn't spread out right across the US. MIND YOU, at the time it seems that Detroit & LA were the hot cities for breaking new releases ... I'd guess though that was coz 'little indie labels' in the 2 cities were putting out great 45's at the time. So singles by the likes of the Capitols & Shades of Blue had got their 1st radio exposure in their 'home towns'. From there, they'd spread out right across the US, making the R&B and pop charts in the process. Maybe his new 45's lukewarm reception in many markets was the reason he was still out promoting "This Can't Be True" even after it's follow-up was in the shops. Mind you, Pittsburgh was one of the few cities it had done well in, so maybe that was the reason he was still promoting it there in summer 66.

More Eddie Holman related stuff ... the Parkway 45 items all dating from April / May 66. Eddie obviously believed "Don't Stop Now" was a good song as he cut it again for ABC & it got released on 45 again ...

I believe that more of the backing tracks were cut in Detroit, the lead vocals in Muscle Shoals ... I guess Don Davis would only have been credited as the producer if he did both the backing & vocal tracks (could be wrong though). Is it known -- in his STAX PERIOD -- how often Don Davis spent time darn souf (Memphis , Muscle Shoals) and for how much of his time he was just back in his home Detroit studio ? I assume some Stax acts, the Dramatics for instance, cut most of their stuff in Detroit, though Ron Capone (a southern based producer) gets credits on some of their stuff. I'd also guess that other Don Davis associated Stax acts worked mainly in Detroit. However, Don Davis did loads of Johnnie Taylor tracks; many of them being Memphis cuts. Outside the US, Stax had 'crossed over' to the white market but back in the States they were seen as being a BLACK RURAL SOUTHERN outfit, so white radio didn't play their stuff. Stax execs were determined to remedy that situation. I guess, with black Detroit tracks being big pop hits & getting extensive white radio plays, they saw that a Detroit / Memphis hybrid might held them to cross over to the American white market. THUS Don Davis would be a very valuable hire with his Motown, Golden World, Groovesville experience. Davis was used to get that 'hybrid sound' on cuts such as Carla Thomas's "Pick Up The Pieces"

Though De-Lite put out their 1st 45 in October 1967, Gene Redd only seemed to get involved with them from August 69. That was when the 1st Kool & the Gang 45 came out on De-Lite. That 45 had made a very brief appearance on Gene's Red Coach label just before it's De-Lite appearance. 'His' 2nd 45 on De-Lite was the Appointments in October 69. As stated earlier, he was involved with the Platters LP (Musicor) in 1967. There were also Detroit related tracks on both the groups 1968 LP (Sweet Sweet Loving) and 1969 LP (I Get The Sweetest Feeling) + a Gene Redd part written song on the later. So I guess Gene Redd was involved with the Platters & Musicor into early 69 at least. Incidentally, Popcorn Wylie & Sonny Sanders oversaw the group's "Sweet Sweet Loving" track (& others).

In the US, a radio DJ would pick up an old 45, like what he was hearing & start to feature that cut on his show. Lots of times, his audience would react favourably and the single would start to sell again. This happened on numerous occasions & most have been well documented. OTHER TIMES, a locally distributed 45 would eventually find it's way into another area, a radio DJ there would play it (not realising it had been issued weeks / months ago ... AND AGAIN, the 45 would take off and start selling in that area. HOWEVER, it wasn't common (to my knowledge, for a release by a known artist on a well known nationally distributed label to take off and still be selling 6 months after it had been first released. Some 45's would catch on slowly, becoming popular in one city at first. DJ's in other areas would see it listed as doing well (in say Baltimore) & they'd start playing it. It's popularity would then slowly spread with the last area in which it became popular being some time after it had first took off in the first city. BUT Eddie Holman's Parkway 45 release (THIS CAN'T BE TRUE) from September 1965 was still charting in Baltimore & Boston over 6 months after it had first hit record shop shelves. I can believe it may have taken time to reach & become popular in Boston BUT Baltimore is only just down the road from Philly (just 100 miles away). The chart's below are from the end of March 1966 . . . at the time it was still in the top 30 national R&B chart & at #66 on the Hot 100 pop chart. ALSO, I have been told that Eddie was out doing live shows (in places such as Pittsburgh -- 300 miles from Philly) to promote the 45 in summer 1966. Eddie's follow up 45 (which included "Eddie's My Name" on the B side) had been released in April 66, so I guess he should really have been promoting "Don't Stop Now" at the time. Cameo were placing ads in the US music press to promote DSN in early May 66. It was also on the LA chart & bubbling under the Hot 100 at the same time. Anyone know why / how this would have happened ?

ALSO Gene Redd had been appointed an A&R guy by Musicor & put in charge of the 'Platters update' project -- the initial 45 from that was released in February 67 & the album ('Going Back To Detroit') in August 67. Gene still seemed to be involved with GW in 1966 & he must have started work with Musicor in New York before the end of that year. So his sacking / leaving must have been sometime around late summer / fall 1966. By 1966 Edwin Starr was just about GW / Ric Tic's top act. He'd been enjoying hit 45's since July 65. So he was in demand for big US package tours. In April 66, Edwin Starr was touring with the Miracles, Contours & Velvelettes. In June66, hen was touring on a package with new Motown act Gladys Knight & Pips. Edwin undertook a UK tour in October 66. It's said that when he left the US, he was a Ric Tic act but when he returned from his UK tour, he was a Motown act. That tour was organised by Roy Tempest and ran from the 14th to 29th October -- so the sale of GW acts contracts to BG / Motown must have been around that time. That would seem to tie in with when Gene Redd 'left' GW.

The 45 in question ...

Thanks for the reply; very informative as always.

ELECSTAR -- This label was active in the 1980's and put out a confusing mix of stuff by different types of people (singers, comedians, studio based outfits). One of the labels main 'employees' seemed to be song writer (& producer) Bob Puzey, along with the likes of John Velasco, Derek Livesey, Phil Da Costa, John Allen, etc. Puzey was responsible for the VALERIE songs & recording session. He worked before & after his time on Elecstar stuff with an even greater mix of people -- pop groups (Nolans, Dooleys, Fortunes, Dana), footballers, Japanese artists, disco acts (Shy Flack), comedians (Russ Abbott), pop soulsters (Haywoode, Billy Ocean, Sharon Benson) and more. So he seemed to work with anyone who'd hire him. ANYWAY, back to ELECSTAR. They had Danny Williams signed to them but in general, never put out anything more that would interest us here. . . . HOWEVER, a 45 that isn't listed on DISCOGS is worth a listen ... VALERIE -- Crest Of A Wave / Is Our Love Over VCL 003. . . . 1985 The label operated between 1983 & 1988, so the Valerie 45 wasn't one of the 1st things they'd released. Other stuff they were involved with was cut @ Jacobs Studio, Surrey -- Jacobs Studios Ltd, Ridgeway House, Runwick Lane, Farnham, Surrey . . . BUT I have no idea if the VALERIE tracks were also cut there. Anyone know anything about VALERIE (full name, etc. and if she had anything else out at all . . . or this label ? .

Robb, many thanks for your answer. As I said in my first post, I'm in touch with an 'outside singer' who was sent to Golden World by a contact back in his home city. That contact then broke off his relationship with GW, so by the time 'my guy' got there, using his 'contacts' name was no longer a help to him. But luckily, he (& his group) had a demo tape with them. Gene Redd bumped into them & intrigued, took them into an office in the building to listen to their tape. He liked what he heard, so took them to meet Ed Wingate. He also liked their stuff (2 self written sings) & arranged for them to have time in the studio. They cut 4 songs & Gene Redd held onto the master tape. He then told 'my guys' that he'd shop their tracks to labels in New York and left, saying he'd be in touch in about a month. Seems Gene Redd (or more likely Ed Wingate) paid the hotel & food bills for the guys while they waited to get into the GW studio; they also never paid for their studio time or the musical / backing singers work ... so I guess the results of their studio session would have been 'owned' by Ed Wingate). ANYWAY, after the session was over & they returned home, things got complicated & a deal via Golden World or a New York label for the 'GW tape' never materialised. What happened to it, 'my guy' has no idea (they weren't given a copy either). ANOTHER QUICK QUESTION ... I guess Wingate always thought he'd hire out time in his new studio & that would bring in fees that would help pay for the facility. He had to sell out to BG, so I have to assume the amount he made from GW / Ric Tic releases & the money he made from outside session fees never met his original expectations. To your knowledge, is that so .... I.E. that the 'outside work' the studio got & therefore the fees from hiring out GW studio time wasn't actually as much as Wingate had originally expected ? SORRY to be so cryptic in part BUT my article that deals with all these matters isn't finished yet (but will be published in the very near future).

I believe the BOY MEETS GIRL project was Stax's way of trying to find male / female duet partnerships ala Otis & Carla, William Bell & Judy Clay ... the tracks were cut at different times (as artists became available) & in different studios. Think backing tracks were mainly done in Detroit, vocal tracks darn souf. I bought the UK single LP when it was issued & didn't realise the US version was a double LP till much later (no tintanet, etc.). Lots of Detroit / Memphis / New York / Chicago stuff from that period (mid 60's to early 70's) is a confusing mix. FOR INSTANCE, Sonny Sanders quit Detroit in November 65 ... BUT ... his name is on the Detroit cut Bobby Williams Sure-Shot 45's from Oct 66 & Feb 67. In similar fashion, Gene Redd's name is on the Atco Darrell Bank's 45's issued in March & May 67. After Gene R left Detroit, he was appointed as an A & R guy @ Musicor. He was put on the project to update the Platters sound. No doubt he had a big hand in getting the 'old' backing tracks from Detroit that formed the base of the cuts on the spring 67 album 'GOING BACK TO DETROIT'.

I'm a sucker for that Impressions sound ... so I'd have to go with "That New Girl" too. Though lots of their 70's tracks were top notch too.

So it seems we've identified why Carl Davis left Okeh and how he came to be at Brunswick, poaching talent from all around Chicago & Detroit to join him in making 'new hits'. We just have to sort out similar details / reasons for Gene Redd quitting his time with Golden World and his re-emergence on the funky foot @ De Lite. Seems none-Motown Detroit recordings had some success after GW was taken over & left the scene, but it never seemed to be on the same scale as it was around 1965/66. Don Davis was still a main player but he was soon recruited by Stax and split his time between Detroit & Memphis (for finished recordings). Ed Wolfrum @ United Sound Studio, Detroit & Russ Terrana, Jr. @ Terra Shirma Studio, Detroit were both hired to work on Stax's 1969 released 'BOY MEETS GIRL' project. Dale Warren, Johnnie Allen, Rudy Robinson & Pat Lewis also worked on tracks cut for the project. Don Davis overseeing some of the tracks too. After Motown moved to LA & Don Davis hooked up with Stax, a lot less great tracks on Detroit indie labels appeared. Westbound eventually took on a major roll in the city but again, they had left the 60's Detroit sound behind too.

Carl Davis came to Brunswick from Okeh & as soon as he got there he hired a talented team to help him (Sonny Sanders, Gerald Sims, etc). BUT I don't think it's ever been fully explained why he left Okeh so suddenly. Pieces from the US music press through 1965 paint a picture of both sides (Okeh / Epic & Davis) being happy & Davis hiring staffers and getting promotions ... something obviously happened in the August / September 65 period to sour the relationship and prompt Davis to jump ship to Brunswick. He probably had a falling out with the Epic execs in New York, but why / over what is probably lost in the mists of time. The Mary Wells track he worked on ("Dear Lover") returned her to the US charts and was reviewed by Cashbox the same week as the ladies who seemed to take her place @ Motown also had their new 45 reviewed.

Robert Pruter in 'CHICAGO SOUL' writes ... by the time "Dear Lover" was released in February 66 ... Davis credited as producer ... the song was written by Carl Davis and Gerald Sims & arranged by Sonny Sanders, who had recently been brought to Chicago from Detroit. Seems he got the release date for "Dear Lover" wrong. It came out at the end of December 65 and was reviewed in the US music press that was published in mid January 66. Mary had signed with Atco around October 65 & I guess it made sense for the label to team her with an ex Detroit guy. So it seems likely that the track was cut in late November / early December 65 and rush released. So it seems Sonny Sanders was working with Carl Davis in Chicago as early as December 65.

A few 70's Lamont Dozier LP's were works of genius. Ashford & Simpson's 'Send It' is pretty special as well.

Three of my all time faves (from back in the mid 60's) are Marvin Smith "Have More Time" & the Artistics "I'm Gonna Miss You / Hope We Have" ... Sonny Sanders worked on them all .... talented or what.