Owd Codger

I asked a major Motown CD compiler if there is a backing track for ALL vocal in the Motown vaults. He replied; Absolutely if the 2-3-4-8 or 16 track tape is in the vaults which I would say covers 99.9 per cent of Motown recordings then there is a backing track

here are the credit details courtesy of DFTMC Baby A Go-Go (Richard Jacques-Ronald Miller) published Stein & Van Stock alt title: Baby Don't Leave Me Barbara McNair; recorded Hitsville, completed 26-May-66 ; produced by Brian Holland, Lamont Dozier 03-Jun-02; CD (M): Motown 544 619 2 A Cellarful Of Motown! [UK] details of alternate lyrics...again from DFTMC Countin' On You, Babe (Richard Jacques-Ronald Miller) Barbara McNair; recorded L.A. (?), completed by 08-Mar-66 ; produced by Brian Holland, Lamont Dozier 26-Jan-04; CD (S): Motown 017 554 2 Barbara McNair - The Ultimate Motown Collection [UK]

Mal C We are talking about Barbara McNair. Are you getting mixed up with another recording By Brenda Holloway

Same track..but not sure it exists without vocals as a released item

There is no version that I know of.

Just come across this thread. I raised this on another forum years ago, got no response, so I thought I'd imagined it! I had to laugh when in the first show, full of "genuine" tunes from about 1968 played in the club ( or so the show portrayed) , they featured a Four Tops track , possibly Clip My Wings, that didn't surface until about 2005. Talk about Up Front.

Just heard Four Tops/ Supremes "Knock on my door" on TV show Dinner Date ( wife's choice...I'm waiting for Test Match highlights).

The same tape has "count the times" c/u as "Sims twins"????

Probably a 'tape swapper' cover...not a DJ thing. Some tape swappers were keen on including the odd cover up, which amused and annoyed me in equal measure.

Thanks...yes I'm certain that it is Timi Yuro

Can anybody please help me to identify a track I have on an old tape, c/u as Cookie Jackson. It's actually That's Right, walk on by....but I can only find a cover version by Kiki Dee. Early 60s female. ...written by Clyde Otis, Joy Byers thank you

Just dug out my Fantastic Four CD, which is a reissue of their album released on Soul after joining Motown. This album contains Ric Tic masters, and I thought I'd check out the liner notes. Interestingly, all the groups singles on Ric Tic are mentioned. Unfortunately, the text is in Japanese, so there may well be some interesting info, but alas I can't read it.

That is correct. TMG release due to UK demand. But in the USA, after buy out, there was no real demand , so Motown didn't release anything on him from his Ric Tic masters. JJ Barnes tells the story that Eddie Holland told him he was too similar to Marvin Gaye....the likeness on his Ric Tic 45s is uncanny on some of them. Motown did record things on him at Hitsville, but again they never issued these tracks. CFOM in the UK features some of them.

There are reports that Ed Wingate wanted to get out of the music business, and he actually approached Berry Gordy with an offer to sell GW. Motown wanted the studio, as by 1966 they were running at maximum capacity. So it was a good business move to buy GW. It solved many problems. I personally don't think that Gordy was worried by " competition" on a grand scale. In 1966, as we know, dozens of Detroit labels were issuing records. Yes GW/ Ric Tic was the major Detroit competition and locally, were getting attention. But Nationally and in crossover pop terms, not much of a worry to Motown. Producers might have been annoyed that some musicians were MIA...recording elsewhere....but not that big a problem. It made a few good lines in the SITSOM movie....rather like old footballers/Cricketers telling stories at Sportsman' s dinners. Of course, it's only my opinion, but I think the pressing need to stop GW is a myth. By 1966, The Marvelettes alone had more "hit "records than the entire GW set up. Mr Godin pushed this story in B& S. That probably gave the story more credence than anything else. But as they say, if the myth becomes the story....print the myth. BTW I love many of the GW/ RT tracks as much as anybody on this forum so I am not in any way anti GW.

Regarding Motown's " Cavalier " approach to these GW masters, this was at a time when Motown were discarding things of quality like " Suspicion "," Forever in my heart" , " Reconsider ", " it's too late for you and me".. " Love starved heart" ..the kind of unreleased tracks that ignited the NS scene years ago. So it can be seen that these GW items were not a priority...hence their shoddy treatment

It would suggest that only the tracks that have been PREVIOUSLY issued on comps, 45s etc will used again...unless UMG have proof of ownership...eg Harlem, I have faith in you etc and other Ric Tic items were on the Soul Master expanded CD. Therefore it's most unlikely to get tracks never issued by Motown before. I can only think of The Reflections, on GW, being used by Motown ( TMG) . So, this supports my theory that Motown saw potential value in old "hits" and took the masters. Others on GW were ...well, who knows..still rolling down Davison. Look at it this way..it seems that.in 1966 , Motown didn't really want to take these masters if they didn't have value. They MAY have taken them all, but the above answer suggests that some were lost, misplaced ...and paperwork proving legal ownership was badly handled. Whilst these brilliant records had Clubs up and down the UK drooling in 1972, most of the GW tracks were of no use to Motown. The artists above...yes, some sales potential. But you couldn't imagine an LP on Gordy/ Motown of " A collection of16 Big GW flops" being issued. ( taking commercially here). So , unless UMG are prepared to put a lot of effort into it, then no future Official comps will appear. Years ago, such a comp would have been the holy grail. If it was possible, some reissue company would done it. The fact that nobody has tells you that it can't be done...it would prove virtually impossible to prove ownership.

Of course..his first record on Desert Island Discs was Dobie Gray!

I contacted a compiler of many Motown CDs , so his contacts, knowledge and access to the vaults and it's contents should be well regardrd I would think Here is his reply As far as I can gather all aspects of the sale of RT/GW are very very woolly - a number but by no means all of the catalogue tapes were passed over but the paperwork was so tenuous that U believe discovering what Universal owns and doesn't own is next door to impossible - and nowadays they are so edgy regarding litigation that this has become a minefield for them. Which is why you will see tracks that have already been released by Motown in the past being available and not really ever seen any unreleased. It is just impossible to work out legally who owns what - even possesion of the tapes doesn't signify ownership as far as I can see. If we wind the clock back to the original UK - Ric Tic LP - I am almost positive that some of those tracks were 'needle drops' and in the case of Mark III Trio– G'Wan (Go On) I know that to be true. It almost explains then why some bootleggers have got away with releasing material on 'independent' labels and never been proscecuted - as it's too diffciult to prove ownership.

Surprised there was no sign for " Wigan Pier"

Went to local theatre last night.. "Around the world in 80 days". Interval background music... Marvelettes Beechwood 45789 Temptations...I gotta find was to get you back ( Denis Edwards version) Epitome of Sound...You don't love me

In an attempt to locate the story of Dave Godin and Barney Ales ( which for the life of me I can't locate), I discovered I was in error regarding the closing of TMAS magazine. But in reading about this period, it clarified things that I had long ago forgotten. TMAS published the magazine until January 1966. Then , abruptly, Dave Godin explained to readers that the TMAS would fold, to be replaced by non Motown centric Rhythm & Soul USA ( 4 copies). Regarding the tour, after 2 years of promoting Mary Wells & Motown, he contacted Motown regarding his plan to form a Motown fan club. This led to Gordy sending him an invitation to Detroit to meet the Motown staff and artists , with a view to gain knowledge of the UK scene. Reading these early articles, and the over enthusiastic promotion of Motown in the magazine, it is easy to see how Gordy gained a false impression about Motown's UK popularity . However, a very close relationship was formed, and TMAS were given full support and crucially financial backing ( EMI also helped funding) However, it seems an ever confident Gordy was hell bent on the 65 tour ( Mary Wells & Supremes had big UK hits late 1964) and was keen to promote the label launch. It seems that the reality hit home to Godin, who saw that the stories of UK popularity had been over egged, and the exhausting tour details brought some reality to the situation. Godin now backtracked, and tried to advise Gordy that it was too early for such a big undertaking. Gordy ignored him, his support and promotion seemingly not needed as much as before. However, Godin was now in a situation ,where against his better judgement, he had to be seen to be as supportive as before....the TMAS bears this out. Relations were strained over a period in time, and any warnings from Godin were ignored. The tour was the expected financial disaster . TMAS funding was withdrawn by Detroit and EMI and Godin was now virtually broke , as he told a friend he was up to his balls in debt! So, it seems his relationship was soured by the ignoring of his advice, blame for the early over optimistic approach and the removal of his funding. Now where did I read the Barney Ales story?

I think volume 1 is available for £12

one used copy on Amazon....£160.00

nicked?? Who would do such a thing?

Hello I could be confusing UMG offices being New York, where members of Motown Treasures forum have met HW I think. It would make sense that the tapes were housed outside Manhattan. Did HW give any indication of the storage of GW tapes. Presumably he is aware of UK interest? I have no knowledge of the policies of record companies releasing material. The recent " All turned on" CD prompts questions. Is it cheaper to re-issue tracks already released years ago....perhaps like a TV show repeat.....thus " All turned on" is on there but not " Makin' up time" for examplr. All a mystery to me.