Robbk

As far as I know, the only Pac-3 studio was located in Dearborn. But that's a western suburb of Detroit, so, I guess that's why it was listed with the Detroit studios. Maybe they also had a Detroit P.O. Box, to benefit from having a Detroit Address, to get on listings of Detroit recording studios.

Even without having Groovesville Productions credit printed on the record, the link to Detroit still could have been Don Davis. But, Davis had bought United Sound in 1971, and THAT was his primary recording studio for his entire producing career, anyway. So I doubt that Davis was heavily involved in that Hot Sauce production. But, maybe Hot Sauce's producers wanted to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound" regardless of Davis' non-availability for whatever reasons (maybe Davis and his United Sound were solidly booked up, and so they checked out other Detroit studios, or were referred to PAC 3 by Davis, or someone else). 1972 was BEFORE Davis' falling out with Stax. So, Davis COULD potentially have been involved in some way.

Velgo recorded at Sidra and Ernstrat/Terra Shirma, a lot of Don Davis' Thelma productions were recorded at United Sound. Mike Hanks' D-Town and MAH's recorded in his own Pig Pen, but he DID record a few of his latest recordings at Golden World, and even had Golden World distribute them. Most of Don Davis' Groovesville, Groove City, and his and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound/Revilot labels recorded mainly at United Sound (Including The O'Jays). Drew recorded at Sidra, Carla and a lot of Ollie McLaughlin's labels productions were recorded in Chicago, but some recorded in Detroit before 1965 were recorded at Motown's Snakepit, and later at Golden World ("Cool Jerk" being one). Impact and Inferno recorded at Golden World, Kool Kat recorded at Golden World. Mike Terry recorded most of his projects at Golden World, some at Sidra. Popcorn Wylie at several different studios, including United Sound, Golden World, Sidra and Terra Shirma. A lot of Detroit Soul productions were recorded at United Sound Systems, by both small and large labels. There were several other smaller studios around the city: Correc-Tone/Magic City, Pioneer Recording, Artie Fields Productions, Bumpshop/GM Recording, Master Recording, Mickay's Recording, Northwest Sound, Fortune Records, Diamond Recording, Detroit Sound, Continental Recording, Carrie/LaBeat Recording, Sound, Inc., Tri-Sound Recording, JVB Recording, Special Recordings, Sound Patterns, McCoy Recording Co., Jackpot Recording Co., Rainbow/Ernstrat Recording, Temple/TCB Recording, Blue Star Recording, Viney Recording Studio, Northwest Sound, Gold Soul Studios, Dotty's Recording Co., Golden Hit Productions, Tower Recording. Many of these recording studios were owned by record producers, as you know from their Northern Soul records on labels of the same name.

Must be a Lowrider.

Thanks. I understand the context now, and what Mal meant.

Clearly, you used that as a symbolic idiomatic phrase. You explain it as "making a loud noise" (sort of like "He dropped a bombshell! ) So, which post contained the "mic drop" to which you refer?

What's a "Mic Drop"? I've never been a "Hep Cat", in The In Crowd. 🤔

I bought 2 mint copies (One for my friend) of "Love's Gonna Do You in" in 1968, for 10 cents each, from Joker's owner. I bought $50 worth of 10 cent mint records that day.

Yes, I found all 3 of the Stephanye 45s in The Chicago Area. They got national distribution through Wingate's distribution channels. As I stated before, I've read in several places that Stephanye was not only distributed by Golden World, but was a partnership, half-owned subsidiary of Golden World. I think that the reason they had only the 3 releases was because of the early falling out between Wingate and Gene Redd. I think Maltese Records only got regional distribution in The Northeast, and probably also in Detroit/Southeastern Michigan and Toledo/Northwest Ohio.

Thanks Yank, So it appears that George Kerr met Biegel while both were at Motown in Detroit, and when Barnes and Kerr decided to leave Motown, and Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, and approached Wingate (probably with the help of Biegel (who also left Motown), Kerr needed an outlet for his talents. So, maybe he asked Biegel to find a financier to back a new record company that Kerr could run the day-to-day record producing operations. So, Biegel found a New York financier, so that the new label could have operations both in New York and Detroit (so Kerr could still spend time where his family and friends were, and still produce in Detroit as well, to take advantage of "The Motown Sound"). Biegel probably found Granoff through his connections with New York Area national distributors. My bguess is that Kerr kept his house in New Jersey, and just rented a small apartment in Detroit, because he had no guarantees that he'd be with Motown a long time. As was born out when he found out that Gordy wanted him as a songwriter, but didn't want to pay him to be a producer. Clinton was in that same situation. Biegel had a similar situation with Motown, having to face a ceiling, blocking him from moving higher up. So he left to get a more powerful job and more money with Wingate, and also had a chance to not only handle the business end of a new record label, but also participate in its profits as a junior partner. The interesting thing is that he could do that benefitting from using Motown's musicians, and what he had learned from the inside, about the way of operating that brought success to Gordy's operation (so he thought). But, his tenure with Wingate wasn't very long, and Maltese Records had very little success, if any. I don't remember seeing that ANY of their releases charted, even on the R&B charts. I don't recall seeing any Maltese records on The West Coast. I don't think I saw any in Chicago record shops. I think I found most of mine in Detroit bargain bins and thrift shops. Maybe some made the Woolworth sales (even in Chicago). Yank. Do you remember seeing any Maltese records in Chicagoland?

So, was Biegel still headquartered in New York, and travelled nationally? Or did he move to Detroit? Or was he born and raised in Detroit, and working in Detroit before Barney hired him? If it was the latter case, then Biegel must have known about Clinton, Barnes, and George Kerr leaving Motown and going to Wingate, and decided there was an opportunity for him with Wingate, and either HE, or Kerr (more likely Kerr) got Granoff involved to form a new label (for Kerr to run a record label as an outlet to use his songwriting and record production skills to continue earning a living), as his former partner, Barnes had decided to team up with Clinton.

I like Les McCann's original version best. It was a big hit on KGFJ and KDIA, and they only played the very best fast and mid-tempo Jazz instrumentals. They stayed away from slow, bluesy instrumentals. Eddie Harris' version was played and charted nicely, too. I think WVON and WBEE played them in Chicago, too. I was really big on Blue Note and Atlantic Jazz at that time, as well as Afro-Latin Jazz. Luckily, very few of the Soul collectors were competition for me -especially for the 45s. Getting mint Jazz LPs for discount rates , or mint DJ LPs at thrift stores or in bargain bins was much tougher. Funny thing, I'm the only one I ever knew who generally liked the shorter marketing 45s' 3 minute versions of Jazz LP title and featured songs, than the 5 to 10 minute album versions. The compact 45 versions were much more structured and thus, to me, tighter. The much longer LP versions rambled all over the place, and often had enough time to have a slot for a long solo for each major instrument with a lot of improvisational wandering away from the general track of the song. (which many, many, if not most Jazz fans like). And I do appreciate them; but I like the tighter, structured tunes much more. After all, who wants to listen to 9 straight minutes of only drums, while waiting, hopelessly, for the music to come back?????!!! 😝

Thanks for uploading this article, BlackpoolSoul. Now I know what all readers of Sidney Barnes' book knew, - that Maltese Records was totally owned by Bud Granoff and Irv Biegel, without ownership participation by Ed Wingate or Golden World. So, Biegel, working part time in Detroit, had his A&R man, and chief producer, George Kerr, record background tracks at Golden World Recording Studio, had them produce his masters, and ordered pressing of Maltese's commercial issues at Columbia Midwest (Terre Haute, Indiana), ostensibly through Golden World's account there. Of course, Biegel used Maltese's own funds to pay for that, and Granoff probably kept the masters when Maltese shut down. What I also didn't know before this revelation, was that George Kerr worked on his Maltese productions in Detroit, including writing some songs, and recording some vocal and some music tracks there. I had known that several (if not most of their music tracks) had been recorded in Detroit, but I thought they had been produced by Wingate's producers using Motown musicians and arrangers. I didn't know that Kerr had stayed in Detroit after leaving Motown, and migrated from Motown to Wingate's operations along with George Clinton and his crew, Sidney Barnes, Gene Redd, Jr., and, it seems, Irv Biegel. I had thought Kerr had returned to New York (where he had never left, but bounced between the 2 cities), and just produced songwriting, demos, and vocal recording on their NY artists there, using Richard T. and his band, who stayed in New York, not being brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy in late 1964, after the closing down of Jobete Music, NewYork, as George Clinton, and Kerr and Barnes were. Now I know that George Kerr worked in Detroit for Maltese, as "Mr. Lucky", and although Irv Biegel acted as a business manager for Golden World/Ric-Tic, while also running Maltese, in a similar manner, using Wingate's operational channels and connections, Maltese was NOT a subsidiary of Wingate's Golden World. But, clearly, it was related enough to consider it a member of Golden World's "family of labels. However, this doesn't effect my belief that Gene Redd Jr.'s Stephanye Records was a partly-owned subsidiary of Golden World, (as I have read that in a few places) Unfortunately, I can't remember the sources for that. However, I'm sure that Redd kept the masters for their 3 releases. I'd like to know where Irv Biegel was stationed when working for Motown, and exactly what he was doing. My guess was that he was hired, originally, by Miss Ray, to manage the business end of Jobete Music, New York office, and operated solely out of New York. The article about him made it sound like he had been working for Motown in Detroit after Jobete NY was shut down. I'd be shocked to find out that that had happened. I'd have guessed he'd not have been kept on, and brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy, after the latter shut down the New York operations, like he brought George Clinton and The Parliaments, and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes. I assume that Bud Granoff hired and partnered up with Biegel to operate his new (Maltese) record company, taking advantage of the newly-available talent that had operated Motown's New York operation. And When Clinton, Kerr and Barnes decided to leave Motown in Detroit, they were either approached by Wingate, or went to see about hooking up with his rising Detroit label, which was starting to rival Motown. Upon reaching production agreements with Wingate, they decided to try to bring in their Motown New York colleague, Gene Redd, Jr., and Kerr, now alone, after Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, convinced Biegel to get his partner Granoff to make him Chief producer and A&R man of their new label, and to team up with Wingate, to continue to take advantage of the burgeoning popularity of The "Detroit Sound", using Detroit's musicians and arrangers and songwriters (most of whom had recently worked (or still were working) for Motown Records.

I was aware of this article. It adds nothing to my guess that Maltese Records was either a partially-owned subsidiary company of Golden World, or an independently-owned label, which had so many production and operational ties to Golden World that it could be defined as a member of The Golden World family of labels. Whether or not it would be found to have been partly owned by Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton, or Golden World Records, along with New York-based owners, Granoff and Biegel. I do know that much of its operations were handled by Golden World staff, and the label had a production/mastering/pressing/marketing/and distribution deal with Golden World, handled through their normal channels. probably ALL of their background music tracks were recorded by Golden World producers in Golden World Studio, and only some vocal tracks of their East Coast artists were made in New York.

So, as Roburt stated, The 4 + 1 were from Pittsburgh, and made local appearances there.

I don't remember "The Ankara" nightclub in Detroit. Was it in Pittsburgh? There was a New York group who recorded for Madison records during the late 1950s through the very early 60s. Could Dickie and The Ebb Tides hsave morphed out of them?

Gene Redd would have had to pay The Fantastic Four for their back-up work, and the musicians for the session, so, unless he made a deal with Wingate for renting the studio for that time, making them partners in the session, he'd have entered the session in the books as "His" as a rental, and paid for the studio time (or just paid the session workers) and kept Wingate from knowing about it. But the latter would have risked his relationship with Wingate, who would surely dislike being "stabbed in the back", taking a subordinate partner in, who is using his facilities for just his own profit, and not giving him the option to participate in it. My guess is that Redd wouldn't have wanted to risk his good situation with Wingate, and so told Wingate about the session, played the tapes for him, and asked him whether or not he'd want to participate in the project and the group. As it went nowhere, my guess is that Wingate decided that he had enough artists to handle, and he'd stay out of this one. Redd would simply pay for the sessions (the regular studio rental fee) and deal with that group on his own, back in New York. I'd bet that Wingate got a little peeved that Redd went ahead with the recording session, without consulting him first, and setting up a "tryout" session that HE would also attend. I'd bet that that incident, plus his sitting on the phone discussing his own private deals on long distance phone calls to The East Coast(Long Distance calls out-of-state cost LOTS of money back in those days), was a good part of the reason Ed ended their partnership, in addition to his being pissed about Redd making a play for JoAnne. The master tapes would have stayed in Redd's hands. So we'd have to do research into what happened to his personal master tapes. Did anyone contact him, or his children, back in the '80s and '90s when The NS DJs and regular US trip-making NS record dealers and scroungers were looking up the 1960s producers? Is he still with us? If not, I wonder if someone contacted his kids.

I don't understand your point, as the only photo that shows up is a scan of her early to mid '60s Gold Record. There is no photo of a Human. From the sound of her voice, which doesn't project very well (e.g. more from mouth than diaphragm, i'd guess that it isn't a "trained" voice. And I'd also guess she might have been somewhere between 15 and maybe 22 or 23 years old (also helped by the girls' groupish-sounding background chorus behind her. I doubt very much that she was a jazz singer.

Thanks, Chalky, for this comment. YES, I confused ALCO pressing plant with Alcor Records. So, Alcor Records was just a subsidiary division of Everest Records. I have a definite data overload from over 70m years of looking at, and trying to process record information.🤪

But Alcor Steel operated a pressing plant in L.A. that made stampers for the entire Western US, and they were the 2nd largest pressing plant (after Monarch) to use the triangle icon in front of their pressing code. The were a natural to start a record label, and Alcor Records had an L.A. address, and their label design is a design used by an L.A. pressing plant during that Alcor label's existence. I doubt very much that that is a coincidence. As Alcor Records was identified on their labels as a division of Everest Records, maybe Everest was a partner (co-owners) with Alcor pressing Plant in that subsidiary of Everest Records? Maybe Everest's staff handled production, marketing and distribution for Alcor. I have a really nice Eddy Williams single on the label in addition to the Priscilla Page. Williams was a lead singer of two well-known LA R&B groups during the 1950s, The Aladdins and The Capris

Thanks for this photo, Blackpool Soul. It adds a bit to our knowledge of Detroit's music industry during the '60s. I wonder why Ady listed Alcor Records as being operated out of New York. That was probably the corporate headquarters of Alcor Steel, who ran a record pressing plant in L.A. and manufactured stampers used by a lot of other pressing plants. Alcor was one of the several minor L.A. pressing plants that used the triangle symbol before its pressing code numbers, along with major L.A. plant, Monarch. Alcor Records was a division of L.A.'s bigger label, Everest Records. I wonder if they were also owned by Alcor Steel? - or if they were just a co-owned subsidiary? I also wonder how (and WHY?) Rose G's owners got their record leased by tiny L.A. label, Alcor. I always meant to ask Popcorn Wylie about that, and the several other small Detroit labels he worked for when he was freelance producing during the early to mid '60s, but never got the opportunity. I wonder if Graham Finch interviewed him in one of those taped interviews he has been uploading, and Popcorn discussed that period with him?

This refers to Bob Hamilton's (more detailed) goals for Golden World, after JoAnne Bratton, with Ed Wingate's approval, hired him to be chief producer and A&R Man for the company. She and Ed had, of course, more general goals. She was new to the business, and needed someone who had already been in the business, to run its nuts and bolts everyday operations, while she supervised, at least until she was well-versed enough to run it herself. Of Course, the original idea for starting the company was hers, with Ed Wingate's approval and backing (and he had the final say in things). This was somewhat analogous to Mickey Stevenson's position with Motown, with Berry Gordy leaving him overseeing daily operations, but keeping watch on things from above, and having final say in all major decisions.

Did you find out about them from an advert in a record collector newsprint fanzine-type magazine? - like the US magazine, "The Record Collector"? Or did they advertise in a UK magazine or fanzine?

I never found anything good in Woolworth'sn 3 for $1.00 pack. They usually put common charted records as the 2 outside viewable records, and the 3rd was usually a fairly obscure Pop artist - nothing I could even trade. Why should I have paid 35¢ apiece for records I couldn't use, when I could pay then same price for a rare an absolutely new mint obscure Soul record at United Distributors. I was averaging maybe 17¢ a record overall, with my quantity buys at a set low price and thrift store finds at 10¢ apiece, and record stalls at flea markets, and junk and furniture stores. I used to find whole collections of old R&B inside the old record album folders (not just 78s, but also 45 folders of that same '40s style album books). Some collections went from the late '40s into the early '60s. The '60s Soul 45s in those old late '40s and early '50s album folders looked strange, but I got some great records that way. I did much better with Woolworth's loose individual 45s for 10¢, often getting over 100, sometimes even over 200 if I hit the sale right after they were put out. They were sitting upright in long bins. Having all those loose 45s in record jackets, and my buying over 100 allowed me to scarf up VJ, Chess, Motown, and other company covers, to build up a surplus, so I could always put proper covers on my records in my collection. Back in the earlier times, it allowed me to stay ahead with Specialty, Imperial, Jubilee, Modern, RPM, Flair, Crown, Duke, Peacock, King, Federal, DeLuxe, Regent, and many of the rare 50s company record jackets. I did the same thing at the "record wall" places. That took away time from perhaps hitting one more record site, but I was a perfectionist, wanting my collection to look good. I also remember those Sutton Golden Hits. I never saw anything I wanted on the outside front and back.

Those warehouses didn't have any way to get advertising to individual record collectors. If I'd been offered listed, individual obscure non-charted small label records at 10¢ each, I certainly would have bought them, just as I bought them from Woolworth's, Walgreens, and people like Ray Avery, Music Man Murray, etc. Those stores and outlets were also customers of those record warehouses. I was not able to come up with lots of cash to look up the record warehouses, and go buy from them in volume. Also, I was still in school, so had no time to hawk and sell my extras to finance original big purchases. Also, I didn't want to end up as a record seller to make a living. I was taking a heavy science major course in high school, to be able to have a career in environmental science. So had no time to make record collecting/rare record selling my life's work. By the end of the 1970s I had become disillusioned in the environmental consulting business, as government agencies and politicians were ignoring my reports. So I started attending art school to work towards becoming a cartoonist and animation artist, while becoming a co- owner in Airwave Records, and working for them, as well. I didn't scrounge for records much, at all, after 1972, when I moved part-time to The Netherlands, and was otherwise started working on vaulted recordings projects at Motown, starting in 1974. I assume that some of those warehoused records were the source of Woolworth's and Walgreen's 10¢ /$1.00 sales, and the record walls at Ray Avery's and Music Man Murray, and maybe even John Hillyard's stock.