Having looked through the recent 'Top 3 Modern tunes' thread on here and trawled through Refosoul listening to lots of the tracks mentioned I would like to argue that listening to Willie Nelson singing 'Always on my Mind' comes closer to what soul should be about than many of the soul-less tunes from the 80's and 90's do, just because it's got a beat and a decent voice over it don't make it soul.

I would argue that soul should have feeling and emotion, something to conect with the listener and I just don't get the feel from later music that you get from the likes of Otis, Aretha, Levi, Smokey, Marvin...I could go on.

Listen to Willie and you'll get the idea, he sounds like he really feels the pain of heartbreak when he sings, surely that's what it's all about.

So he may not be Northern, Rare or Crossover but does Willie have soul? I think so.

TAXI!!!!!!

have to agree, as soon as i saw the thread i thought of 'YWAOMM' . the same could be said about Roy Orbison, very soulful voice.

Having looked through the recent 'Top 3 Modern tunes' thread on here and trawled through Refosoul listening to lots of the tracks mentioned I would like to argue that listening to Willie Nelson singing 'Always on my Mind' comes closer to what soul should be about than many of the soul-less tunes from the 80's and 90's do, just because it's got a beat and a decent voice over it don't make it soul.

I would argue that soul should have feeling and emotion, something to conect with the listener and I just don't get the feel from later music that you get from the likes of Otis, Aretha, Levi, Smokey, Marvin...I could go on.

Listen to Willie and you'll get the idea, he sounds like he really feels the pain of heartbreak when he sings, surely that's what it's all about.

So he may not be Northern, Rare or Crossover but does Willie have soul? I think so.

TAXI!!!!!!

Gabriel Garcia Marquez and A.L. Kennedy probably have more soul than any living (or dead) human beings, they don't make soul music or anything remotely connected with this genre of music so I don't expect to discuss them here.

I truly despair sometimes, what is the world coming to.

Last time I checked the strapline at the top of the page, it said "a rare soul sort of thing". Willie Hugh Nelson is indeed a "rare soul", and fully deserving of any thread that anyone wants to open about him, anywhere on this forum.

As a singer, he is unique and he ranks with any of the greatest African-American vocalists that we discuss, day in day out, on SS. As a songwriter, he penned some of the finest songs of the mid 20th century. And even now, in his 70s, he's not content to rest on his past achievements, and is always creating interesting music.

Can't say that about too many of the people who get namechecked on here with sometimes monotonous regularity...

Edited June 26, 200915 yr by TONY ROUNCE

Last time I checked the strapline at the top of the page, it said "a rare soul sort of thing". Willie Hugh Nelson is indeed a "rare soul", and fully deserving of any thread that anyone wants to open about him, anywhere on this forum.

As a singer, he is unique and he ranks with any of the greatest African-American vocalists that we discuss, day in day out, on SS. As a songwriter, he penned some of the finest songs of the mid 20th century. And even now, in his 70s, he's not content to rest on his past achievements, and is always creating interesting music.

Can't say that about too many of the people who get namechecked on here with sometimes monotonous regularity...

Very dodgy logic, even for a Western fan like you. I am not going to try and tell you about music, you are one of the people who has genuinely forgotten more about it than most of us will ever know, but regardless of above statement he, and millions of others like him, talented or not, have f*** all to do with soul music, as you very well know. You liking him will never change that. If you want to debate the meaning of soul, outwith the very well documented musical genre, no matter what you say this is not the place for it. In my very humble opinion, of course, which just happens to be right this time

I can't keep up with all the soul stuff I want to listen to or read about, it may make me a bad person, it definitely makes me a soul snob and proud of it, but thats why I only come to a couple of soul forums as that is always what I want to discuss and listen to.

Lots of other places you can go, and I genuinely agree he is a talent, but this shouldn't be one of them. So put your cowboy hat on, stick that in your pipe and smoke it, this gentleman is not for turning and you know I am right.

Feel free to name me in one of your non-soul liner notes as a heretic, any sort of recognition does it for me.

Edited June 26, 200915 yr by jocko

Mods, how more off topic can this go, to Freebasing with it and don't spare the horses.

You seem to be confusing soul music with black music, Jock. The two are not mutually exclusive, and never have been.

Soul, to me, has always come in a variety of colours and styles. This thread - which I will point out was not started by me, but by Bicks - is titled "Willie Nelson Got Soul". I would argue that he has, and in abundance.

If you can't hear it or feel it, that's your prerogative. Others on here obviously can, and they deserve their say. Particularly in a part of the forum called "all about the soul" rather than "all about the Northern/Modern/Crossover/whatever"...

You may not be for turning. But right? No, I don't think so...

"If you want to debate the meaning of soul, outwith the very well documented musical genre, no matter what you say this is not the place for it. "

Surely a forum about soul music is the perfect place to debate what constitutes soul.

For the record I'm not a huge fan of Willie Nelson, I was just trying to suggest that when he sings he has what I personally would regard as 'soul'.

Sorry, I don't think my browser is set up for this new style Soul Source so cannot edit my posts at work.

What I should have said at the end of the previous post is:

For the record I'm not a huge fan of Willie Nelson, I was just trying to suggest that when he sings he has what I personally would regard as 'soul', compared to some of the rather over produced soul-less offerings that do get recognised under the banner of 'soul'.

I'm not saying he is a 'soul singer' in the way that Otis Redding would be regarded.

Having looked through the recent 'Top 3 Modern tunes' thread on here and trawled through Refosoul listening to lots of the tracks mentioned I would like to argue that listening to Willie Nelson singing 'Always on my Mind' comes closer to what soul should be about than many of the soul-less tunes from the 80's and 90's do, just because it's got a beat and a decent voice over it don't make it soul.

I would argue that soul should have feeling and emotion, something to conect with the listener and I just don't get the feel from later music that you get from the likes of Otis, Aretha, Levi, Smokey, Marvin...I could go on.

Listen to Willie and you'll get the idea, he sounds like he really feels the pain of heartbreak when he sings, surely that's what it's all about.

So he may not be Northern, Rare or Crossover but does Willie have soul? I think so.

TAXI!!!!!!

what a great record that is,got it in my collection but never told anyone till now

kev

Edited June 26, 200915 yr by SoulKev

He's currently on a tour of baseball venues with his buddy bob dylan. now there's a pair, and both very soulful they are too. donde est¡ mi abrigo?

You seem to be confusing soul music with black music, Jock. The two are not mutually exclusive, and never have been.

Soul, to me, has always come in a variety of colours and styles. This thread - which I will point out was not started by me, but by Bicks - is titled "Willie Nelson Got Soul". I would argue that he has, and in abundance.

If you can't hear it or feel it, that's your prerogative. Others on here obviously can, and they deserve their say. Particularly in a part of the forum called "all about the soul" rather than "all about the Northern/Modern/Crossover/whatever"...

You may not be for turning. But right? No, I don't think so...

i would make a distinction between 'soul music' and 'soulful music'. there are a bazillion singers and songs in other genres that i would call 'soulful' (including willie nelson) but including them in a soul forum would clog up the place. willie nelson was 'soulful' and he had 'soul' but he did not make 'soul music'. that is also different than a race argument, as obviously many white singers did make 'soul music.' i would prefer 'all about the soul' be confined to actual 'soul music' and not just any singer that was soulful. my 2cents.

You seem to be confusing soul music with black music, Jock. The two are not mutually exclusive, and never have been.

Soul, to me, has always come in a variety of colours and styles. This thread - which I will point out was not started by me, but by Bicks - is titled "Willie Nelson Got Soul". I would argue that he has, and in abundance.

If you can't hear it or feel it, that's your prerogative. Others on here obviously can, and they deserve their say. Particularly in a part of the forum called "all about the soul" rather than "all about the Northern/Modern/Crossover/whatever"...

You may not be for turning. But right? No, I don't think so...

i would make a distinction between 'soul music' and 'soulful music'. there are a bazillion singers and songs in other genres that i would call 'soulful' (including willie nelson) but including them in a soul forum would clog up the place. willie nelson was 'soulful' and he had 'soul' but he did not make 'soul music'. that is also different than a race argument, as obviously many white singers did make 'soul music.' i would prefer 'all about the soul' be confined to actual 'soul music' and not just any singer that was soulful. my 2cents.

i would make a distinction between 'soul music' and 'soulful music'. there are a bazillion singers and songs in other genres that i would call 'soulful' (including willie nelson) but including them in a soul forum would clog up the place. willie nelson was 'soulful' and he had 'soul' but he did not make 'soul music'. that is also different than a race argument, as obviously many white singers did make 'soul music.' i would prefer 'all about the soul' be confined to actual 'soul music' and not just any singer that was soulful. my 2cents.

You're absolutely right. What I was basically alluding to was that a lot of the stuff I heard from the 'top 3 modern tunes' thread, to me, didn't deserve the term 'soul' as it seemed a bit bland.

In my kack-handed manner I was just saying that something clearly not 'soul music' (Willie Nelson) was, to me, infinitely more soulful than much of the stuff on the thread.

I just thought it might get a few people thinking a bit deeper than the 'top 3's' and 'what's your favourite' threads (not that there is anything wrong with them, I enjoy those too), it is a forum after all.

My next thread will be "What's your Top 3 Dolly Parton Tunes?".

Got to go now Jolene's calling me back to the 9 - 5, and remember, I will always love you.

You're absolutely right. What I was basically alluding to was that a lot of the stuff I heard from the 'top 3 modern tunes' thread, to me, didn't deserve the term 'soul' as it seemed a bit bland.

In my kack-handed manner I was just saying that something clearly not 'soul music' (Willie Nelson) was, to me, infinitely more soulful than much of the stuff on the thread.

I just thought it might get a few people thinking a bit deeper than the 'top 3's' and 'what's your favourite' threads (not that there is anything wrong with them, I enjoy those too), it is a forum after all.

My next thread will be "What's your Top 3 Dolly Parton Tunes?".

Got to go now Jolene's calling me back to the 9 - 5, and remember, I will always love you.

My Top 3 Dolly Parton tunes:

1. Down From Dover (she's with child and unmarried, baby dies of shame during childbirth rather than face life as a bastard)

2. The Bridge (she's with child and unmarried - again, throws herself off the bridge where she first met the bloke who knocked her up rather than face life as an unmarried mother)

3. The Party (she and husband go off to a party, leave kids asleep and unattended at home, house burns down with kids in it)

Brilliant, all three. Dolly was a sensational songwriter in her early years.

My Top 3 Dolly Parton tunes:

1. Down From Dover (she's with child and unmarried, baby dies of shame during childbirth rather than face life as a bastard)

2. The Bridge (she's with child and unmarried - again, throws herself off the bridge where she first met the bloke who knocked her up rather than face life as an unmarried mother)

3. The Party (she and husband go off to a party, leave kids asleep and unattended at home, house burns down with kids in it)

Brilliant, all three. Dolly was a sensational songwriter in her early years.

STOP!!!!!! right now before the moderators get wind of this.

I've met Willie a few times, and been to any number of his shows in Britain and Europe, an' I think he'd find it very amusing to know that his soulful credibility is inciting such fevered debate.

I happen to fall into the camp of "Boy, has Willie Nelson got soul..." and I can testify to that. His duets with Timi Yuro, his duets with Ray Charles, his duets with BB King, his impossibly eclectic and varied musical style that has seen him do covers of Jimmy Cliff songs, his close association, and working partnership with Booker T...among others. Have you seen the way he plays? His mastery of the fretboard. Can think of only 2 guitars whose identity is known the world over... BB Kings Lucille, and Willie's Trigger.

Just to seal the deal I'm posting a little musical interlude for you folks, so you can see what I'm getting at...

Anybody who says he ain't got soul after seeing this, just don't recognise soul.

Incidentally, Ray Charles chose two people to be at his bedside when he was dying. One was Quincy Jones, the other was... well can you guess...?!!

I've met Willie a few times, and been to any number of his shows in Britain and Europe, an' I think he'd find it very amusing to know that his soulful credibility is inciting such fevered debate.

I happen to fall into the camp of "Boy, has Willie Nelson got soul..." and I can testify to that. His duets with Timi Yuro, his duets with Ray Charles, his duets with BB King, his impossibly eclectic and varied musical style that has seen him do covers of Jimmy Cliff songs, his close association, and working partnership with Booker T...among others. Have you seen the way he plays? His mastery of the fretboard. Can think of only 2 guitars whose identity is known the world over... BB Kings Lucille, and Willie's Trigger.

Just to seal the deal I'm posting a little musical interlude for you folks, so you can see what I'm getting at...

Anybody who says he ain't got soul after seeing this, just don't recognise soul.

Incidentally, Ray Charles chose two people to be at his bedside when he was dying. One was Quincy Jones, the other was... well can you guess...?!!

if you read my post, i actually said that willie nelson had "soul" and was "soulful". he also would probably be a cool dude to hang out with (especially if you smoked weed) but he isn't a "soul music" artist.

either way, I missed the point of the thread that bicks was making about the other modern thread because i didn't see the other modern thread.

Don't have time to answer this properly yet, but can say meanwhile what Bob says, times 2.

And yes the clip you put up proves my point perfecttly, thanks for that.

As a little aside to your point it would appear there was a doctor and a few useless friends with Michael Jackson when he died, does that mean they are all great dancers................

PS If the Dolly Parton fan club come googling by surely thats the clincher for Freebasing, cmon Mods you know you want to!!

PPS Bicks, do you want to debate Lee Fields, Stan Mosely and Norman Connors new CD's over in Freebasing, could do with a chat.

Who's next,Rod Stewart

think im going under

I was listening to a documentary on Radio 4 the other day about the amazing Chris Barber, who had the house band at the Marquee in the late 50s and early 60s and later. Chris was into New Orleans Jazz first and foremost but he brought over from America people like Muddy Waters, Earl Hines and over the years worked with most of the RnB artists we respect on here. As a consequence the club and other clubs like it were frequented by bands like The Rolling Stones and Van Morrison who later went on to create RnB influenced pop music and rock and roll. No one would argue that The Rolling Stones played anything even near to soul music, but it can't be denied they started as a white RnB band immitating their American heroes, like most white bands of the early 60s. So my point is, just because artists are bluesy and influenced by rhythm and blues doesn't make them 'soulful'. Soul has more in common with gospel with some rhythm and blues influence for me, rather than directly growing out of Jazz, blues and RnB. I think you can argue that singers like Willie Nelson, Van Morrison, Johnny Cash and Elvis are certainly infuenced by rhythm and blues, but soul? No.

I agree with Bob and Jock, rhythm and blues influenced singers and bands, while brilliant, are not soul. In my opinion. As for whether or not he deserves to be discussed on here, well i doubt we ever stick to discussing 'soul' music when we talk about 'northern soul' on a regular basis, or when we discuss RnB, how much of that is actually soul?

Just my twopennuth... slow Sunday morning and all that.

Edited June 28, 200915 yr by Matt Male