Frank Howard - Judy - Excello  

Posted in the following cats/tags.... tags: Rare and Northern Soul Audio Clips Refosoul Rare and Northern Soul Clip library - v4.1 .. view refosoul post

Roger Hatcher was the big Soulful tune to own on this label.... I can't help but think that this was other one that I missed out on at the time (on the same label) ! Its got that Perfect Beat and a totally Soulful Vocal...........with a wonderful story (not unlike "sweetest girl in the world")

It was probably cut on the same day with the same musicians?

You are going to tell me that it was played at Stafford in 86...........................good, because that is what I would like to know!

Who played this first.............where.............when..................and why has it not become massive? .......... How rare and expensive is it?

It is quality....top draw..... "Northern Soul" IMO ....................and if somebody played it next week - I would be hugging the dancefloor!

dont rate this tune on this mp3 - its a really bad quality one 

It's been around a long time as a collectors record. I bought a copy blind off Adey Pierce in the 80s, and can't say I was that impressed by it. I don't think it will ever go 'massive' because it's not really good enough and I think it's actually impossible to dance to. Not a bad lead vocal but the backing singers coo-ing "Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy" ad infinitum still give me a headache.

The Roger Hatcher 45 was cut in Detroit. I'm guessing this may have been recorded in Nashville, although Frank Howard had other records on New York labels.

Sorry to sound negative. If we all liked the same tunes it would be strange. I wouldn't try to value it because my pricing has been way off the mark lately.

It's been around a long time as a collectors record. I bought a copy blind off Adey Pierce in the 80s, and can't say I was that impressed by it. I don't think it will ever go 'massive' because it's not really good enough and I think it's actually impossible to dance to. Not a bad lead vocal but the backing singers coo-ing "Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy, Judy" ad infinitum still give me a headache.

The Roger Hatcher 45 was cut in Detroit. I'm guessing this may have been recorded in Nashville, although Frank Howard had other records on New York labels.

Sorry to sound negative. If we all liked the same tunes it would be strange. I wouldn't try to value it because my pricing has been way off the mark lately.

Thats the way..... I really like it tho..............I dont know anything about the tune!

Dont feel bad about being honest about your oppinion on this 45 .... thats the point of posting a tune up on this site bud !

Apart from the RnB on this label (Slim harpo, Charles Sheffield, Lonesome Sundown...etc) I have not heard anything really uptempo and Soulful.(Apart from Roger Hatcher)

I really like It, its got a banging drum beat and a nice vocal.............and its NS in my book!

All oppinions and info on this 45 most welcome (anyone got one for sale?)

Edited January 31, 200817 yr by mossy

A great tune, yet to have it's day. I don't recall this being played at Stafford even though it was doing the tape swap rounds at the time and could be bagged for 20 quid.

The last time I saw a copy for sale in recent months it was 100 quid, so I assume that's today's going rate.

You should also check out Al Green's version from the Let's Stay Together album (he wrote the track), it's a bit more down tempo, but a gorgeous tune, and no mistake.

Perhaps its one of those tunes you love of hate! I love it!

Now ...........is anyone selling one?

Perhaps its one of those tunes you love of hate! I love it!

Now ...........is anyone selling one?

I have one for sale, had a mint demo and its was hummm great but, sold it and couldent live without it so got another VG+ a couple of pops hear and there but sounds better than the minty one I had.

Its yours if you want one a demo as well.

B-side is a good version if not great of Smokey Places.

Edited January 31, 200817 yr by Prophonics 2029

You should also check out Al Green's version from the Let's Stay Together album (he wrote the track), it's a bit more down tempo, but a gorgeous tune, and no mistake.

Frank Howard's version was the original - it came out in 1967 and Al's was issued in 1971. The song was written by Larry Lee, Nashville guitarist (who later played with Jimi Hendrix at Woodstock) before he joined Al Green's band. (I can't remember if he's on that live 1972 Al Green DVD.)

However, Al remembered the song's origin a little differently during this promo interview - Al Green talks about "Judy".

You should also check out Al Green's version from the Let's Stay Together album (he wrote the track), it's a bit more down tempo, but a gorgeous tune, and no mistake.

Frank's version doesn't even begin to compare with Al's, which IMO is one of the best tracks he ever cut.

Al's was issued on a single, too - but only in Jamaica, as far as I'm aware (I've posted a scan of the label up on here before...)

The Roger Hatcher 45 was cut in Detroit.

You 100% sure on that, Gareth?

Mossy, you may wanna check out the discs on Excello from the Exotics, Stacy Lane, the Avons and the Firebirds...I'm sure some will appeal to you.

Although I am a big Al Green fan in this case I do prefer the Frank Howard version. I do like a lot of the Excello stuff, love the Avons and have quite a few of their 45s as I collect a bit of girl group stuff...

I have no documentary proof Dave, it's based on hearsay and an educated guess. Roger's other material (like the Little Rodger Hatcher 45 on Dotty's and his 70s work on Black Soul & Superbad) is on Detroit labels and definitely recorded in the city. From time to time his material was leased to larger labels such as Brown Dog (an address in NY, I believe) or Columbia, or in this case Excello.

I remember Tim Brown including this on a tape compilation of Detroit productions appearing on non-Detroit labels, which featured things like Just Brothers and Honey Bees on Garrison, Tommy Neal on Vault, Marjorie Black on Sue etc.

I also have a distinct memory of someone (can't recall who) telling me that Sweetest Girl In The World was recorded at Golden World. Perhaps the soulfuldetroit forum can shed some light on this.

While some of the Excello soul product was actually recorded in Nashville a fair proportion of the releases were leased in from other locales: The Kelly Bros. from Chicago, Marva Whitney from Kansas City to name a couple of examples.

While some of the Excello soul product was actually recorded in Nashville a fair proportion of the releases were leased in from other locales: The Kelly Bros. from Chicago, Marva Whitney from Kansas City to name a couple of examples.

The Kelly Brothers may themselves have been from Chicago but almost all, if not all, of their Excello sides were cut in either Memphis, Nashville or Muscle Shoals. They also were actually under contract to Excello, not leased in (you were right about Marva, though, those tracks were leased in)...

Roger Hatcher's 70s recordings, such as "We Gonna Make It" were definitely cut in Nashville, with Bob Holmes at the controls. It's entirely likely that the Excello tracks were cut in Music City, too, esp. as Holmes was head of A & R at Excello in that period.

Excello didn't just cut their own sessions in Nashville. Only this morning I was playing Slim Harpo's "Mohair Sam" - cut at Royal Studios, with the full Hi Rhythm Section. After he split from J D Miller and signed directly to Excello in 1967, they also recorded him in Muscle Shoals and Baton Rouge. This is true of many other artists who were signed directly to the label rather than 'lease jobs'...)

I have no documentary proof Dave,

Same here, Gareth...was kinda hoping you did have something concrete for us.

I wonder if there were any clues on the master tape boxes/notes...pageing Mr.Croasdell or Mr.Rounce to reception, please!

The Kelly Brothers may themselves have been from Chicago but almost all, if not all, of their Excello sides were cut in either Memphis, Nashville or Muscle Shoals. They also were actually under contract to Excello, not leased in (you were right about Marva, though, those tracks were leased in)...

Roger Hatcher's 70s recordings, such as "We Gonna Make It" were definitely cut in Nashville, with Bob Holmes at the controls. It's entirely likely that the Excello tracks were cut in Music City, too, esp. as Holmes was head of A & R at Excello in that period.

Excello didn't just cut their own sessions in Nashville. Only this morning I was playing Slim Harpo's "Mohair Sam" - cut at Royal Studios, with the full Hi Rhythm Section. After he split from J D Miller and signed directly to Excello in 1967, they also recorded him in Muscle Shoals and Baton Rouge. This is true of many other artists who were signed directly to the label rather than 'lease jobs'...)

You are, of course, correct about the Kelly Bros. Tony, and I accept that We're Gonna Make It and Caught Making Love were indeed cut in Nashville, but I find it odd that Bob Holmes doesn't have his name on Roger Hatcher's Excello single.

From memory the arranger's credit is a presumed pseudonym Patience Prudence. I can see why he may have used that pseudonym if he was A&R director and also hoping to get a production/arrangement fee by using an alias, but similarly I can also see a scenario where this is not his work. It doesn't really sound like a Nashville production, even quite uptown and orchestrated material such as the Avons 45s.

I know Kent have compiled this side on Uptown Down South and wonder like Mr Flynn if there was any archive material along with the tape which might definitively pin down where the recording was actually made.

Perhaps its one of those tunes you love of hate! I love it!

Now ...........is anyone selling one?

HELLO. YES I HAVE ONE FOR SALE, ITS A STONE MINTER

IF INTERESTED PM ME

WAZZ.

I have no documentary proof Dave, it's based on hearsay and an educated guess. Roger's other material (like the Little Rodger Hatcher 45 on Dotty's and his 70s work on Black Soul & Superbad) is on Detroit labels and definitely recorded in the city. From time to time his material was leased to larger labels such as Brown Dog (an address in NY, I believe) or Columbia, or in this case Excello.

I remember Tim Brown including this on a tape compilation of Detroit productions appearing on non-Detroit labels, which featured things like Just Brothers and Honey Bees on Garrison, Tommy Neal on Vault, Marjorie Black on Sue etc.

I also have a distinct memory of someone (can't recall who) telling me that Sweetest Girl In The World was recorded at Golden World. Perhaps the soulfuldetroit forum can shed some light on this.

While some of the Excello soul product was actually recorded in Nashville a fair proportion of the releases were leased in from other locales: The Kelly Bros. from Chicago, Marva Whitney from Kansas City to name a couple of examples.

My understanding is that Roger Hatcher was Edwin Starr's cousin; wonder whether Edwin might have been the route to Detroit (and Golden World) for Roger Hatcher?

'Sweetest Girl in the World' is definitely (IMHO of course!) the best to have come out of Excello, followed closely by 'Just the Other Day' Little Johnny Truitt.

Brian

Edited January 31, 200817 yr by Brian Ellis

My understanding is that Roger Hatcher was Edwin Starr's cousin; wonder whether Edwin might have been the route to Detroit (and Golden World) for Roger Hatcher?

'Sweetest Girl in the World' is definitely (IMHO of course!) the best to have come out of Excello, followed closely by 'Just the Other Day' Little Johnny Truitt.

Brian

Brian

there's a separate thread running on the Roger Hatcher record and I posted about his relationship with Edwin Starr. It's not really a clear cut situation.

Brian

there's a separate thread running on the Roger Hatcher record and I posted about his relationship with Edwin Starr. It's not really a clear cut situation.

Thanks for this Gareth - I'll take a look at it.

So many threads running at the same time, virtually impossible to keep tabs on all of them; duplication/crossover ('No' 60's only people not the 'crossover' that arguments are made of!!) is almost inevitable!

Brian

Thanks for this Gareth - I'll take a look at it.

So many threads running at the same time, virtually impossible to keep tabs on all of them; duplication/crossover ('No' 60's only people not the 'crossover' that arguments are made of!!) is almost inevitable!

Brian

Gareth

Just checked out the other thread. Interesting post of yours.

I was never totally convinced of the genealogical lines (not that I ever studied it in depth - or studied it at all for that matter!); just a throw away line that as you infer, has become more folklore than perhaps fact.

Yet another soul myth becoming unravelled .

Brian

You are, of course, correct about the Kelly Bros. Tony, and I accept that We're Gonna Make It and Caught Making Love were indeed cut in Nashville, but I find it odd that Bob Holmes doesn't have his name on Roger Hatcher's Excello single.

From memory the arranger's credit is a presumed pseudonym Patience Prudence. I can see why he may have used that pseudonym if he was A&R director and also hoping to get a production/arrangement fee by using an alias, but similarly I can also see a scenario where this is not his work. It doesn't really sound like a Nashville production, even quite uptown and orchestrated material such as the Avons 45s.

I know Kent have compiled this side on Uptown Down South and wonder like Mr Flynn if there was any archive material along with the tape which might definitively pin down where the recording was actually made.

I was pretty certain Sweetest was cut in Nashville with Bob Holmes and maybe Ted Jarrett after he had moved there from Detroit. I've got a bunch of notes from interviews I did with Bob and the reason why he wouldn't include Roger's stuff in any deal was because he was very hard to work with, which I can concur with, he's one of the hardest people to do business with that I ever spoke to. So much so that we didn't in the end.

I was pretty certain Sweetest was cut in Nashville with Bob Holmes and maybe Ted Jarrett after he had moved there from Detroit. I've got a bunch of notes from interviews I did with Bob and the reason why he wouldn't include Roger's stuff in any deal was because he was very hard to work with, which I can concur with, he's one of the hardest people to do business with that I ever spoke to. So much so that we didn't in the end.

Ady

More great history; further exposure of the unrealistic utopian view many of us (me included) have harboured about our 'heroes'. As we are, they are mere mortals; some good, some not so.

I still think 'Sweetest Girl in the World' is a stunning record .

ian

Ady

More great history; further exposure of the unrealistic utopian view many of us (me included) have harboured about our 'heroes'. As we are, they are mere mortals; some good, some not so.

I still think 'Sweetest Girl in the World' is a stunning record .

ian

Absolute class which only shows that some of the most emotive and inspired artists/writers/musicians etc may not be the wonderful human beings we foolishly hope they are

Ady

More great history; further exposure of the unrealistic utopian view many of us (me included) have harboured about our 'heroes'. As we are, they are mere mortals; some good, some not so.

I still think 'Sweetest Girl in the World' is a stunning record .

ian

Interesting point, Brian.

Once or twice I've been amazed by new or unknown artists acting like superstars making ridiculous demands and throwing tantrums.

I once worked with a guy who got his sister to phone me, pretending she was his new lawyer, saying that if I didn't give in to his demands he would lock himself in his bedroom! We dropped him and wrote it off as a loss. He was signed to Capitol (USA) and Chrysalis/Cooltempo (UK) and they both dropped him too.

Ironically, I've found that most famous or successful people tend to be quite fair and easy to deal with.

I think age has a lot to do with it in most cases. Older people usually have more respect and manners, regardless of whether they are famous or not.

Best regards,

Paul

Interesting point, Brian.

Once or twice I've been amazed by new or unknown artists acting like superstars making ridiculous demands and throwing tantrums.

I once worked with a guy who got his sister to phone me, pretending she was his new lawyer, saying that if I didn't give in to his demands he would lock himself in his bedroom! We dropped him and wrote it off as a loss. He was signed to Capitol (USA) and Chrysalis/Cooltempo (UK) and they both dropped him too.

Ironically, I've found that most famous or successful people tend to be quite fair and easy to deal with.

I think age has a lot to do with it in most cases. Older people usually have more respect and manners, regardless of whether they are famous or not.

Best regards,

Paul

Great and thanks so much guys!, got a copy of Frank H Still unsure where it was cut mind

Great and thanks so much guys!, got a copy of Frank H Still unsure where it was cut mind

Could well here it at the Soulful Shack in Culcheth!!! 1st feb