Tlscapital

Hush now. OK here are my 2 cents on it. IMO worth less than an American original ABC-Paramount copy which should be the most desireable format. Am not british so I don't care for those UK releases penny to penny. Here playing at 33rpm that is an early seventies pressing in an "art-sleeve" with likely what is a poor mastering. The only bonus is 'what kind of fool' maybe...

Sounds like one of the typical crap eVilbay is regulary pulling lately. Whipping you off your feet most unexpectadly for no valid blame. Regulary I mean more so lately than ever before in my experience. Same applies to other sites like Datcogs FWIW. That since Covid where their respective customers "service" has become a total joke. I think the success they had with people being locked-indoors because of the authorities incapacity to stop international human flux whi then compensated by purchasing online gave them the big head. Leaving them to believe that could suddenly treat their old customers like newcomers willing to be treated like "unsignificants". Like Masters treating their slavs if you will. For real. Or at other times by not being available making you feel like unimportant when you need them. Because now ot is you who need them. Not the other way around. I can't foresee what you can do there. It seems like an 'automated' implemantation they have there. And a worrying one. Often I await later to pay for my purchases awaiting other auctions from a same seller to end to finaly pay on combined shipping costs. Now I wouldn't want that to impair further potential winning auctions. If ever you get some enlightement on that matter from them eVilbay customer "services" please let us know. Good luck with it.

Ok thanks for that. I'll try to ask Paul if he can recall anything if ever he did ask... Those single sided white label pressings are still floating around BTW. That would be fab to have both Duke Hall and Daniel Goldstone versions in parallel for everyone to make up where lies the truth... Likely intertwined.

Found them there. Thanks for the lead. They are responsible for the 2019 reissue of the Deceptions 45 that they offer at a price (!!!) with the lead singer signature if wanted. Cute. Now I might be so bold to ask them what's the bitter story behind that Black & Blue 45 but not without a purchase. To do that I'll have wait a little to figure how to fly it over here without breaking the bank.

Nah ! I still think that it was a drunk bet between two rich idiots to get into the GUINESS BOOK OF RECORDS never to be dethroned 🤡

OK, we can say that Duke Hall is definetaly not Duke Stone. We agree on that. Daniel 'Duke' Goldstone as singer and composer worked together with Duke Hall on the Black & Blue 'of all the hearts' project but something went wrong between those two along the process. Duke Hall the producer of the record then pulled the sheets all to his side (as composer) while Daniel Goldstone took it on his term and went to claim to the world that this composition was actualy his by singing it anytime (4 times) he could set foot in a recording studio.

😱

Rarer as promo IME. Black NOS were floating everywhere long ago I admit but promos not...

The Broadways £600 !!! GUINESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORD CONTEST 🤪

Every since I got my old copy from Dave Whiters 30 years ago it remained a firm favorite for my 'home alone' music sessions as with guest it doesn't get the attention it deserves I find. A nod to the best... Idiots. Now I finally manage to get one or two spare copies (cheap enough for them to take home) and get use to the magic of this magistral tune on their system. Next time I'll play it they'll go Yeah ! Yep they know I'm a record pusher man. And now they tend to follow a bit more my recommandations as opposed to their previous few years ago you had a copy of that for sale would by any chance... My expected annoying answer always ; NO ! OK now but the Black & Blue composition credits go to a Duke Hall whose name reapears on the presumably single issued a year before by the O'Kaysions 'watch out girl' on Cotillion. So is it likely that this Duke Hall is Daniel 'Duke' Goldstone under an older pseudo ? For some reasons I'm sceptical on that possibility. But could be proven wrong. The Duke Hall things all took place in North Carolina where the Deceptions 45 hailed from Virginia... But then even though what's behind the composition credit change ? Then the registered BMI publisher's right even differs. Daniel Goldstone singing it 4 or 5 times through 5 decades implies it's his indeed !

Always seem logical to me that the Black & Blue was to be first in line as they sing the song as it was their own. They totaly embody it naturally. While the Deceptions version is plainly deceptive. Only hardened collectors without better ear discernement won't hear that. Now the Deceptions group re-birth name Peace, Justice & Equality versions does it modern and better. But my question now surrounds who does the song belongs to ? As no name nor the licence registration in the credit matches. Like there must be a story behind the tune and respective recordings and releases... Supposedly the Game dates from 1971, the Brooks from 1972 and the Stone Gold 1976.

Mmh, Surinamers were more into bootleging I've always understood than this presentation suggests (obeying politicaly correct crap-trap of DatCogs). The Surinamers were a "niche" market. And it's true that many of the Surinamers bootlegs I've seen are baring the SABAM (Belgium State (back then - not anymore...) copyrights registration 'badge' but then what ? Call the police ? These records all seem to have been pressed in Holland if you ask me. Baring the SABAM logo could have been just a fluke. And the cheap company sleeve (colors of the Dutch flag) an extra bonus. Finally I haven't seen much of these in Belgium but have come across them in bigger numbers in Holland. Without paying much interest into what they are, true. But I'll ask people there next time.

It's actually taken from the "image" of the discogs entry page for that record. It was added by a British contributor and seller in 2017. Robbk is a member on site since 2010. The post of his in the link follows this quest actually hoping to reach others with other knowledge...

You mean the paper clip is from 1992 ?

Sticking to our last theory implying that Gil Roberts would be one of the 'G' on the G&G label enabling him to benefit from his disitributor position at Arc-Jay-Kay to distribute discretely the said record we have to conclude; Knowing that Gil Roberts went to WEA at one time somewhere in 1974 after being at Arc-Kay-Jay this would mean that the G&G release would actually date between mid to late 1974 ! While Gil was still working there. But not later as Gil's position at WEA would simply not allow him such a "quirk" move. I believe at least. And by 1977 Gil retired from the business anyway. All that is still most plausible but then condemning the 1983 theory.

That Gil Roberts like a vietnam "battlefield" misadventure brother in arm story theory for that label's name combined with 'The Yank' post pointing that distribution at Arc-Jay-Kay position for Gil post mid 1974 sounds plausible as meaningful for Gino's character in that industry and his ways to explain tha G&G label's name. Still 1971 for that G&G release I doubt it seriously.

Would Gil and Gino meet again later after their Vietnam "trip" and took the opportunity of that "distribution" position of Gil as 'sales manager' at Arc-Jay-Kay to make that one-off G&G (Gino or George (Sir) for that matter & Gil) label re-release split 45 of two previously existing 'A' sides of Gino's any time somewhere after 1974... ?

Nice one. Very true but the poster of that image on discogs is British ! Even though the "hand writing" date is more typical of the north American continent. On that I agree. FWIW in Canada you always had plenty of American imports too. Nothing of irrefutable evidence but like many of the hints we got here it gives us good leads !

As far as I'm aware the stock copies are styrene and only the withe promos are vinyl. Same typos on both pressings.

Was just noticing that the 'window' in time involving the financial implement of W. Glenn into those Gino's projects involved (when credited but maybe also when not) the A & R participitation of both these guys... FWIW Mike T's work with Gino dates back to 1965 with his musical arrangements for 'when you're lonely' B/W 'Romeo' first released on Creed.

Now that we got some hint as to where to place that G&G release in regard to Gino's discography, we get to go indeep with Gino's financial contributers... Great, I love it. Always loved some of his records but once I got to lay my hands on his sole album on ATAC (that prior the internet days when I never knew of it's existance) it reminded me what he meant to me that I had forgoten. Took me on a quest to have all that I love of him, learn what he did, how, when and with who... Now about that Glenn "banker" guy's name it actually only appears on Perecta AT2880 but not on Perfecta SW2870. At least as far as I can tell since I don't have that very 45 so I can't say if a G+G appears in the run out matrix though. But what seems to be more of a common "match" is the involvement of Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey on those sessions with that W. Glenn productions. At least if not credited on the label on the matrix G+G. All seem to date around 1970...

FWIW I've managed to finally dig out my G&G copy (with the hope I will secure me that Perfecta copy - deal still in progress...) and read exactly all the same in the runout groove as Robbk described. It's all scratched in rather 'sparcely' and 'lenghty' going from 9 O'clock down to 3 O'clock ! Using the original masters template for that 'I lost you girl' featured here as the 'B' side. Then for the flip 'flying high' (counting 4 different releases !!!) it bares a G&G matrix but wait... It's the same runout groove matrix as the flip of my copy of Gino's 'Im so in love' on ATAC Internarional AT2828 ! And the runout matrix for the 'flying high' tune on both my copies read exactly like this ; 243 High-High G+G 000.1 archer dxm Although that G+G 0001 runout matrix could have been used prior on earlier ATAC releases. Like indicating another partnership for Gino or what have you. Anyway it still makes it all more confusing as I'd have place my AT2828 release prior to the G&G one. But was it now ? But we must also try to get a Tim Dougherty's matrix AT2879 (the first release for 'flying high' we are lead to believe. But is it really ?) and the AT2930 runout matrix too then. My bet is that they all will be the same. Gino was pressing his own records just as he wanted when he wanted. Begging the question was the G&G initial project something peculiar or special to him ? And who was G&G ? Funders like Robbk implied ? The only tune of his that he kept on publihing 4 times ! A tune part of at least more than a pair with the short in time involvement of Theodore & Coffey.

While on discogs they vaguely set the Mala in 1968 and both ATAC's in 1969, on 45Cat they set the local ATAC release in Orober 1968 and the Mala in November 1968. That's a pretty tight schedule for a major label to notice a minor or greater release success localy, pick it up, make a deal, re-master, re-release, distribute and promote it IMHO. FWIW I've always understood and accepted (maybe am wrong I admit) that Gino's Mala was first. Just like the Vivian Copeland 'so nice, I had to kiss you twice' first released on Mala in October 1967 and later re-released as 2 "split" singles on DORO (pressed localy then for national distribution by and for the Atlantic Group) somewhere in 1969... If this Vivian Copeland chronolgy of release can be verified this could attest that the Amy-Bell-Mala group was sometimes there and then seeking to make deals with "promissing" producers lo lease a not yet marketed product while leaving the producers as the owner of the recordings and the publishing rights on the material afterwards. And so goes my theory in belief (only that though - am seeking the truth) for this Gino Washington wonderful 45. The Mala release sales and national airplay did poorly in regard of it's potential I understand. Leaving Gino's wanting to take it "localy" into his hands with it's own first release on his own new label ATAC for instant greater results. And he did make it a better job judging by the number of copies foating around. One could say the same for the worn out Mala copies too but these were pressed up in larger numbers as well. IME they are both as "rare". Baring in mind that one is a national realese and the other a local one. Then comes the RPR. The "rarest" maybe but the least sexy too. I could then see this Gino's first ATAC release succes sending "airwave" to L.A. with RPR executives showing interest in a further release with him. Seing the release of his forthcoming 45 'doing the popcorn'. Borrowing a pre-existing 'what can a man do' (Washpan) tune for the flip. Then pushing up a re-release of 'I'll be around' under new longitudes... But once again with this RPR venture 'doing the popcorn' the curse failed Gino's success. Pushing Gino to re-release 'doing the popcorn' on his own locally but to even smaller success... This is all only "speculative" or 'theorical' if one will. Am more always than pleased to be proven wrong to get the factual chronology with historical backgrounds on it ! On a side note, I "recently" (years ago) got me a copy of his Mala 45 to compare the masterings as I once got me in a RPR press and found that the mastering on both sides were that inferior to the local ATAC one I had "forever" that I went to get me a Mala and compare the masterings... The 'I'll be around' on the Mala is 'sparce'... Not good IMO ! But for the first time I heard 'like my baby' BIG ! Prior that I never liked that side of his. On the Mala yes ! It becomes "orchestral" almost. Where it is a much better fit for the tune and especially the musical arrangements. I now have both the Mala and my old local ATAC copy. Each have their 'play' side. I very rarely keep 2 presses of the same record...

I've asked Mark Forest if he'd be willing to share his pre-release matrix on here... Wait and see. Once I had the RPR distributed ATAC of Gino but was so put off by the mastering (I knew that the pickring guitar intro was shorter on this pressing for 'I'll be around') that lacked all the necassary Ooomph that the local ATAC has there ! Indicating that it was completely re-mastered for that press. From memory all even the vinyl looked like Monarch. Begging to very seriously doubt that theory (somehow 🎃) of the vinyl pressed up at Archer and re-mastered there too. Then sent to L.A. for a labeling at Monarch... I don't have that RPR distributed ATAC 45 anymore but I can ask the friend who I sold it to to bring it along for his next visit. But like you I can't make up why the 'ARCHER' matrix on this RPR... Interesting though. Bringing me back to another question I had in chronology ; Gino's 'I'll be around' came out first on Mala. But then what ? ATAC local or distributed by RPR ? On ATAC/RPR first came 'doing the popcorn' 101 then 'I'll be around' 102 while on the local ATAC 'I'll be around' came out first then 'doing the popcorn'. Putting the ATAC/RPR first. And we know that the RPR distributed deal didn't work too much for Gino. Even less than the Mala deal I believe judging by the number of stockers of Gino's on RPR. Especially the 'I'll be around'. But sadly there's nothing to be found ou there that tells the miserable commercial story of this fabulous 'I'll be around' tune and the 3 consecutive pressings it received.

Hi Mark, would you be so kind to pull out your pre-release copy and check if your matrix reads exatly the same as the one given by Robbk from his Perfecta copy ? His reads "AT 2880" - "Archer 243" - "Detroit" etched in the runout groove. What about yours ?