Roburt

Really enjoyed the TV show. Seeing / watching the audience's reaction just added to the experience.

90 minutes of great TV .... . . . good songs, good musicians, good singers. Best thing on the box this year.

Looking forward to watching this TV show tonight.

To get a feeling for what the Overtown club scene was like back in the 60's (& the hotel scene on Miami Beach), go to my old thread 'OLD MIAMI SOUL SHOWS' (posted in 2012) .... www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/228600-old-miami-soul-shows/#comments Some ads for shows from those times ... BTW, lots of music history books have the beginnings of Sam & Dave wrong. Sam Moore was born in Miami whilst Dave Prater moved there from Georgia in 1957. Both performed solo in local clubs up until 1960 (LOTS OF SOURCES SAY 61) when Sam came to Dave's assistance on a club gig at the KING OF HEARTS CLUB and their duetting commenced ........ I have copies of a couple of ads when they were starring as a duet at the King of Hearts Club in 1960. At the time they were still being billed under their solo performing names ... Sam Moore & David / Dave Prater; but as a duo performing together.

The Overtown club scene was just about destroyed by the local politicians in the late 60's. The area had been a thriving black enclave, with loads of housing, shops & clubs. But the politicians drove freeways through the area (the I- 95 & 195) to ensure 8 / 10 lane freeways reached the city centre. The majority of the housing (tightly packed 'ghetto' tenements) was swept away with lots of the shops. With no resident audience, the clubs soon struggled & then closed. The 2 big 'black hotels' went a similar way -- so the soul acts playing Miami Beach hotels had nowhere to stay (they wouldn't let them eat or stay in the hotels they were 'starring' in). The vibrant club scene that had developed acts such as Sam & Dave, Frank Williams' Rocketeers, Betty Wright, Little Beaver, the Twans, the Marvels, etc was destroyed in a single stroke. Miami's Overtown & what the freeways did to it (I put a post up about this some years ago, can't recall the thread name though) .... first pic is 1967, 2nd dates from 1970. If you drive along the I-95 today, you can see the little that remains of the area.

Looking forward to listening to this & what Richard has to say ...

Yes, Ray Avery had rare soul records, I just don't think the guys there realised they were rare (as jazz, do-wop & early R&B was their thing in the main). But any record shop, that hovered up local soul 45 releases like they did, would end up with lots of rare LA / Calif label stuff. I don't think they'd have been that great on rare Houston, Nashville, Chicago & Detroit labels though (unless they swopped 45's they had multiple copies of with similar shops in those cities).

Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, I recall Bobby saying he toured the UK back in the late 60's as the travelling backing musician with the Vibrations. The Vibrations were always popular (as a live act) with UK audiences coz of their dynamic stage dancing). They'd toured here in 1965, 66 & 67 to a great reception. Bobby Eli didn't hook up with them (as a backing musician) till summer 68. The group came to the UK in December 68 and again in June 69. I 'THINK' it was the Dec 68 tour that Bobby was on (if not both tours). In December 68 they played the Wheel & the Dungeon in Nottingham (+ lots of other UK venues). The group (with Bobby in tow) also played the 20 Grand (Driftwood Lounge) that summer. Their stage act at the time included 'Love In Them There Hills', 'Smoke Signals', 'The Watusi', 'Misty', 'Spinning Wheel', 'Oh Cindy', 'Think' & 'My Girl Sloopy'. ALSO ... Bobby (along with the likes of Daryl Hall) were the studio players that made up the guys that had records out as Electric Indian.

Give it a rest. This is turning into another BBC Proms thread. Think I'll duck out once again, it's getting boring.

I think this topic went beyond just chasing 'rare releases' a while ago. BTW, Ray Averys wasn't stocking rare soul records, they specialised in rare jazz, do-wop & 50's R&B. I guess if the earthquake hadn't just about wiped them out, they'd have gotten into rare soul 45's (they were in the right place for many).

When the Casino first got soul ... 1968 ... ... they also had the watered-down fake version (the Love Affair) & the UK version (Geno) ... . . . but by 1970, it had been lost ... only to be found again, later in the decade ...

A couple more bits ...

There's another link between Lou Ragland & Detroit (in addition to his link (once-removed) from the Pack & their work @ Golden World's studio. In summer 67, Way Out sent Lou to Detroit to gain access to the local studios & find out the 'secret' of their hit sound. Don't think Motown would let Lou anywhere near the inside of their studio, but he did visit United Sound & Golden World. Maybe his work with Terry Knight got him access he wouldn't normally have been given. He played on the Precisions "If This Is Love" and other tracks cut at sessions done that particular week. He headed back to Cleveland and used his 'new found' knowledge to cut Way Out tracks that MGM distributed in early 68.

RELATED QUESTION ... what was the Brenda Holloway dance cut on the BBC's 'MY GUY' radioplay LP that was a totally different recording / mix to the original released version ? (used to know, but at 75, the memory is shot).

So the Wheel in 66/67 wasn't playing Northern Soul tracks ?

Terry Knight had 'dumped' the Pack & had his 1st solo 45 out in May 67. Just days later he was over in Cleveland with Lou Ragland leading his backing band (though Lou still kept doing solo things as well) ... Lots of top Brit acts would play the club that Terry, Lou R, etc played in Cleveland. So I guess, those same UK groups & their members (Rod Stewart, Steve Winwood, etc) would have been playing the same clubs across NE USA as Lou was playing. Wonder if Lou got to meet Rod, Stevie ? (too late to ask now).

+ Chalky said ... To say punters weren't bothered isn't strictly true. . . . The scene has always been centred around rare records, exclusive Dj plays, its always been elitist ... CHALKY, NOT THE CASE IN THE MID 60's ... I was attending lots of the top soul clubs (outside London) back then -- the Mojo, Bee Gee, Nite Owl, Wheel, Tin Chicken, etc ... we didn't know enough back then to know what was RARE ... we'd assume an obscure 45 on UK HMV or Pye International was rare just coz we couldn't find a copy when we wanted it. We'd also no idea if a 45 on say US Symbol, Sue, Sims or Bell was as rare as a 45 on Shrine, Velgo, Bonnie or Queen City (not that we knew those labels even existed). We just wanted to own a copy of the single we were dancing to each weekend & didn't care if had made the top of the US R & B charts / made the Hot 100 pop chart. The majority of UK released soul 45's had either been at least 'radio hits' in the US or came from a US label that already had a licensing deal with a UK record company. UK released 45's were the mainstay of the scene we were on. When we get to 1972/73 things had certainly changed but back when we were chasing copies of "Jump Back", "Ride Your Pony" "I Did Your Act", "See Saw" & "Whispers" it wasn't so. To many on here, those were all youth club tracks, to us they were mainstream niter fooder.

Golden World & it's studio were always about more than soul / NS output -- though we on here revere it for that side of it's work. AN EXAMPLE ... a Flint rock group started out on the path to fame by using a Shangri-Las hit song as the inspiration for their name. With the name change (to THE PACK) came a different music style, the guys switching from jazz to rock. They would soon allow their new lead singer, ex DJ Terry Knight, to put his name ahead of the groups, after he used his industry contacts to land them a record deal. The Pack's first single, "Tears Come Rolling"/"The Colour of Our Love", was recorded at Golden World's Studio and was released on the Wingate label. John Rhys wrote & produced "Tears Come Rolling". The group's manager, Jim Atherton from Flint, felt that Wingate was not the right label for a British-influenced Rock group. So he convinced fellow Flint businessman Otis Ellis to record the band on his small Lucky Eleven label. Before the band recorded their second single, the band name was changed to Terry Knight and The Pack, The group started having hits (local at first) and the guys in the Pack were soon being regarded more as Terry Knight's backing band (he becoming the star name their promotion was focused on). There was a falling out & so Terry Knight went solo (after "I Who Have Nothing" was a big hit). Though they were from Flint, they spent a lot of time in Cleveland (where they were very very popular) & where they were regulars on the locally made TV show 'Upbeat'. So when Terry needed new guys to back him, he headed for Cleve. There, he recruited Lou Ragland & some of Lou's musician mates & they went on the road. Lou couldn't believe the difference in the treatment they got on that tour. They were playing 'white clubs' exclusively (not chitlin circuit clubs black acts played). They didn't have to set up their own instruments / gear on stage (just had to do a short sound check ahead of the show), they had great dressing rooms, were given food & drink whenever they asked, were booked into decent hotels, etc, etc). The time Lou spent on the road with Terry really opened his eyes to what treatment he should now expect. The Pack continued on (& as I was informed by Neil Rushton in a Facebook post) .... . . John Rhys was in London to deliver the Shades Of Blue “Oh How Happy” tape to Island Records. Chris Blackwell, the owner of Island, took John out in London and they saw one of the first performances by Jimi Hendrix. John loved one of Jimi’s songs and asked if he could record it on The Pack for Capitol Records when he got back to Detroit. The next night Jimi gave John a tape with the track on. John recorded it and 7 other tracks for Capitol who he recalls “hated” the music. . . . The Pack metamorphosed into Grand Funk Railroad. The Pack's final single for Capitol Records, was that cover version of Jimi Hendrix's "Fire" retitled "Next To Your Fire". The 45 was popular in Michigan but failed to chart outside the state. The Packs full-length Capitol LP was never released though, but 3 songs from those sessions ("Getting Into The Sun", "Can't Be Too Long [Faucet]" and "Got This Thing On The Move") did eventually appear on a compilation album released much later on. I guess the remnants of the group, when they chose their later name __ GRAND FUNK Railroad (though it was GRAND TRUNK RAILROAD originally) were harking back to their more-soul / jazz based origins. The guys must have forgiven Terry Knight for 'dumping them' as he became their manager for a while. Capitol also revised their view on the group's rock style as it was Capitol who signed them to a deal in 69.

I was referring to the top sounds & their value in the Casino era, by then I was off the niter scene & buying much more modern / mainstream stuff. I didn't really care what was big @ Wigan or know / care about the value (unless by chance, I had a copy myself). But from the mid 60's to around 72, I was buying stuff I didn't know (buying blind or on a recommendation). I never paid much for any of these purchases (my most expensive buy being the French Motown EP that contained "Love A GoGo" -- coz that was the only way to get one of my fave Mojo anthem tracks on 7") but that didn't mean I didn't get hold of a few items that became top sounds later on. But I either liked them or not because of what they sounded like, not whether they were rare or not. I liked the Sapphires "Gotta Have Your Love" and so bid about 2/6 off a mailing list for a different Sapphires 45. This was an import only item but I didn't like it coz the lyrics were too banal for my taste. Thus I sold this 45 to a niter guy who'd come round to listen to items in my collection. I sold it for a small sum (in 1970) & never regretted it -- the track in question being "Slow Fizz". I got back into the 'scene' again after Richard Searling started up on Radio Hallam & I liked most of what he was playing (new, jazz funk, deep, NS, MS, etc.). He was playing NS stuff I liked & that caught my interest (+ the best current niter venue was just down the road). So, since around 1980, I did take an interest once again in prices, so of course that meant I had to care about rarity. Still would want to own a track by say Zingara over one by the Magnetics though.

I don't think the DJ's were actively seeking out rare records as such, though of course they all wanted exclusives (even back then). Some of the import 45's that got played in clubs like the Wheel (& the Scene in London) came from UK record companies who had the rights to many US soul tracks. They couldn't afford to release them all .As little or no money was put into promoting soul 45 releases by UK majors back then, the 45's would 'sink or swim' on their own merit. So, to test the waters, UK labels would get some import copies & send them to pirate radio & club DJ's. If they got a good reaction, then the 45 would be considered for UK release ... of course, with clubs being involved, the tracks that prospered were mainly dance tempo items. Back then there was no internet and little info on US soul 45 releases included in UK music mags. So, apart from on labels such as Motown, Stax, Atlantic, Bell, Chess, most new US releases went under the radar. I would try to find 'unknowns' by bidding low on a 45 by an act I had heard of or that was on a label a fave of mine had come out on. Lots of the time this 'blind buying' would get me a 45 I didn't really like, but the cost was low enough per 45 to make it worthwhile. When B&S came about, knowledge on what was around in the US jumped right up. Listening to pirate radio from around 65 also increased my knowledge as they always played lots of imports.

Nashville radio stn WLAC had strong ties to Randys Record Shop -- think the shop sponsored shows on the stn. Anyway, I'd get sent the latest Randys 45 catalogue each time a new edition was printed (annually ? or even more often). At first, I'd just order from what was listed in the mag -- mainly newer releases. But then I realised that stuff like Bobby Bland's "Call On Me" was already years old & that some major label 45's never took off anywhere across the States and so issues were hard to track down. But radio stn copies of many you could get. So I started to send 'wants lists' to Randys & Ray Averys. I got lucky quite a few times via Randys Records & they'd send me a radio stn copy of a 45 I'd enquired about (The Kittens "Ain't No More Room" being the 1st of these I recall). The only annoying thing was, they'd scratch off the NOT FOR SALE writing on the 45 labels & I didn't like having un-played singles with 'damaged labels'. I always suspected that some of the 45's they sent me had been sourced from the WLAC library (but have no idea if I'm right). WLAC: The powerhouse Nashville station that helped introduce R&B to the world (tennessean.com) ... //eu.tennessean.com/in-depth/entertainment/2021/09/23/wlac-radio-nashville-station-rb-soul-music/5606792001/

No idea when 'rarity' became the be all & end all of the NS scene ... don't really care that much either as that part of the scene was never for me -- I had a family to look after, so paying £100 for a soul 45 was never on my radar. BUT, I was collecting soul 45's from 1965, starting with buying just UK 45's, then UK LP's . . ... then when I was attending the Wheel most weekends & the DJ's there were playing UK 45's that had been deleted, I started chasing import 45's from places like Soul City Shop (mail order), F L Moores (L Buzzard), UK Record Dealers mailed out lists, Ray Avery Rare Recs (Calif), Randy's Record Shop (Gallatin, US) & via New Jersey Record Warehouses I managed to get lists sent from. My trips to the Wheel niters started in September 67. I used to think (may be wrong, but that was my impression at the time), that lots of UK soul 45's (by the lesser known acts) were 'held back' by the Wheel DJ's till after they had been deleted here AND ONLY THEN they would all start hammering those singles. There was a big earthquake in Calif in 1971 & I think that caused major damage at Randys Rec Store (San Fran), he lost lots of his rare stock, so I stopped ordering 45's from him after that. The other outlets I would buy from till I stopped attending niters in the early 70's I was still buying more recent releases / soul packs / soul sound 45's from the likes of B&S / Boylens, etc around 1971 -- I recall wanting the latest 45 from Marvin Smith on Mayfield at the time (early 71 - being made aware of it from the new US 45 release listings in every B&S mag). That 45 had "Who Will Do Your Running Now" on the B side but I didn't know the track, I just liked everything Curtis Mayfield had a hand in at that time. From there, I got more into major label soul stuff and gradually lost touch with what were the latest sounds on the niter scene. I had amassed a large collection of UK / US / Euro released soul 45's / LP's though. Current niter goers back then -- Paul Temple, his mate from Selby (was his name Sharkey or sumat like that), Snowy and his mates would call round & plunder my collection for stuff that was much more valuable on the NS scene than I realised; Tobi Legend on US issue, Artistics on Okeh and much more.

Most 'unexpected' session @ Golden World studio (to me anyway) ... Harold Smith's Majestic Choir -- Just As I Am LP (Checker) -- summer 1966 "We Can All Walk A Little Bit Prouder" wasn't cut there though.

Loosely related ... my pic of the Ric Tic Revue folk @ the Ritz (Edwin was missing) ...

When Motown took over Golden World, their Hitsville studio was in full operation with the one-inch, eight-track format. Golden World had a 1/2 inch three-track Ampex 300-3SS, and a Scully 1/2 inch four-track recorder. From BG on down through producers, like Norman Whitfield, etc., it was considered that this lack of eight-track technology an unacceptable limitation that rendered the newly named DAF [Davison Avenue Facility -- Studio B) unusable. Right off the bat, the pressure was on to revise the equipment so as to make productive use of Studio B a possibility. The first thing Motown did at Golden World was to install eight-track recording equipment & a new console. The acoustics in the studio were considered sufficiently good that Motown never felt the need to change this. Golden World used a Neumann AM-32B lathe (see pic) for disc mastering but it was installed in a small room, so the facility was very cramped. However overall the original Golden World studio design was deemed very good, considering the money available at the time it was constructed (April 65).