Modernsoulsucks

"I reckon anybody who went to Wigan Casino for a sustained length of time and still knows what soul music is deserves a bloody medal" "Not sure, I was still out of my head from Wigan to many Geen and Clears" Probably the wrong thread but why these pops at Wigan? I went from first night in'73 straight after the Mecca and stopped going after the several last nights we had. From what I remember we didn't sit there like whales passively taking in the plankton but sifted through whatever came our way. Actually thinking about it,not a good analogy cos whales do sieve their intake so forget the whales; besides they have their own Assembly now and a Dr. Who spin-off. But you get the drift. Shit!, that's almost back to plankton again and where there's plankton there's... I never set foot in Mr.M's although I have been to Kegsy's "event" about 8 years ago so I do know roughly what that hell-hole was like but in my opinion nothing whatsoever to do with what was happening in the main room. When Wigan finished I did check my collection to see what I'd amassed during that time as obviously being a drug-crazed regular I coulda bought anything. Guess what? No Joe 90,Muriel Day, Bobby Goldsboro [Richard's discovery!!] but Professionals,Moses Dillard etc. Oh and an album of Whale songs by Ivor Emmanuel. So next time you hear that Wigan was not all it was cracked up to be I'd take it with a pinch of plankton as it's just a falsehood spread by disgruntled 6 year olds. ROD

Pretty sure "Out on the floor" was pre-Wigan but Gloria Jones may have just crept in. Seem to remember it being popular for Richard amongst others around VaVa time and I think hearing the clapping along at Wigan. If it's set in '74 it's gotta reflect that period so as much as we'd prefer Cecil Washington to "Footsee" it might not be true to life. Luckily the latter may be after '74. ROD

WHAT!!!!!!! Then I hope Colin played a full 12" version of that Parliament. ROD

I think the difficulty some of us are having lies in the fact that there are actually two Ian Levines The first is a guy who was a pioneer who knew what we wanted back in the day and anticipated that need on countless occassions by the simple act of putting a needle on a 45 that we had not heard up until that moment and yet it was instantly familiar because of his ear for the sound and the care he took in his choices. That Ian is still here to my mind in his references to the importance of "Motownesque" music and his disdain for those who try to blur the original meaning of Northern Soul by claiming the title for other forms of music which are quite seperate and distinct. If Les was almost weeing himself at the Kama Sutra 45 I dread to think what would have happened had Colin put on "Soft Walking" or Charles Sheffield. Probably would have abandoned the night with most of us punters hospitalised with chronic mirth. This guy was there at the start and can regale us with interesting tidbits of that time till the cows come home. If the words "I" or "me" come into it too often for some people, they are used because he was there and he contributed heavily in that early development. The second Ian is a guy who is zealous in defending his own productions against criticism but too often goes over the top where it is not needed. I really think the first Ian needs to have a jolly good talk to this Ian. Apart from expense claims and tax returns I have never been that creative but I can appreciate the ferocity of a mother defending her children but I think Ian #2 needs to step back and think before winging off hurtful PMs or whatever. Im also not sure why this Ian appears to think that Stafford was the antithesis to everything he held sacred about what comprised Northen Soul when my memories of that place include a lot of 45s that fitted exactly the parameters than Ian and others laid down. For example Groovettes, Bobby Hutton and Larry Wright. I think in his fave 45s he has Poets on J2 which, I hope Im not wrong, was even post-Stafford, so his line of Motownesque sound continued because a lot of the people playing, discovering 45s and attending were those whom he had influenced in the first place. I get pretty pissed off with Ian#2 but I think I've gained some understanding during this thread and there's a more human face emerging, especially in response to James T's persistent questioning. It's extremely disappointing when your heroes don't always completely live up to what you want them to be but then we ourselves don't always live up to our own ideals. My question to Ian is: So Jack O'neill of Stargate. Would he have taken the Daleks seriously? ROD

I take your point about the Parker 45, Gareth. It is a feel rather than the actual beat. The Rubien I mentioned is kinda similar. Think he may like that Fay Simmons on Senca [clip on here Beeks]]. As a Northern record it's bloody awful but sounds like ska to me and I think the vocal is even similar to that Paulette 45. ROD

A bit of a fan of rocksteady/ska myself and the 45 that immediately springs to my mind is Cody Black "Im slowly moulding" KING. Unfortunately it's expensive unless you get the boot. A couple more are Robert Parker "I caught you in a lie" which you probably already know but I would recommend Rubien Fort "I'll do the best I can" CHECKMATE which should cost around £20 say. ROD

Im not saying it's deffo a Beach group but it is maybe a Carolina 45. Only time I found it and another title by them was in a small town in NC along with other local label type things. Maybe just a coincidence but it does look like that kinda release. ROD

To pretend as Ian D does that we are sat at the feet of Plato as pearls of wisdom spill from his lips is disingenious to say the least. That Ian was top DJ for most of the early 70's is not in dispute. However as far as I can see his involvement of 40 years seemed to have ended around the time he and Colin took the Mecca off in a different direction. I stuck it out till "Salsoul 3001" The "Motownesque" sound that Ian quite rightly champions wasn't there any more IMO. Now apart from the odd personal production that has impacted on the scene since then and the brief flirtation with the Rocket he hasn't had much to do with the development of the scene over the past 30 years, both modern and 60's strands. Ian is reminiscing isn't he but rather than accepting his place in the pantheon with good grace he sets about flailing anyone nearby whom he thinks has done him a disservice by expressing dislike for his work. I fully agree with his point that it must be extremely hurtful when you've put so much of yourself into it but responding with insults or threats is not the best way of going about it, nor is disparaging the efforts and views of those who came after Ian who didn't agree with his take on the direction of the scene. ROD

I think Sarah this film has already created more bad feeling than anything I've witnessed before and it wouldn't surprise me to see it spill over into the scene itself. ROD

Im probably only echoing Ady's comment but I think Ian has jumped in here without actually taking in what started the unease in the first place. The original suggested playlist posted was not particularly representative to my mind of Wigan. I guess it was the same for a few on here. All we asked was that it be authentic to the period and if that means Nosmo King then fine. It can't be that hard to look through a few old fanzines to get something together rather than relying on 30 year old personal memories which of course would have filtered out those records that didn't appeal at the time but were nevertheless extremely popular. This was of course confounded by the reference to material from Duffy etc which if used in the actual Wigan scenes as a soundtrack to the dancing would for some dilute the effect. OK Keb and others seem to have got involved and sorted that concern. Im pretty sure that Ian,had the Mecca been the setting, would equally have been engaged to get that right. Secondly it's slightly unsettling to see your own recollections subsumed into this generic view of ALL of us being the same with our talc,overnight bags and badges. If anything I would have thought the NS attracted all types but the film-makers appear to be going for a uniform look accompanied by synchronised dancing. One of the few dancers who stood out for me was "Malcolm" always down at the front of the stage. He always looked as if he was dancing to the record that was on before the one he was actually dancing to at the time. If Keb wants a challenge....... . Finally to come on here as Ian has done and engage in puerile comments such as "wanna have sex" doesn't actually contribute much to the debate. ROD

Actually Barry your posts are hard to follow as you insist on framing your thoughts in the manner of the Oracle at Delphi requiring a host of willing acolytes to interpret your pronouncements as if delivered from on high. Unfortunately not too many replies to what I thought was an interesting view in that [and I may have misinterpreted!!] there are "big guns" without whom the scene will falter. That there are leading lights is not in doubt but over the years they have, with a few exceptions, tended to come and go so your notion that there is some kinda security, through continuity or guidance perhaps, is something I'd disagree with. You only have to read the posts on here to get a sense of a state of flux and almost anarchy within the competing views as to what the scene ought to be about. That suggests to me that there are an awful lot of people around with passion and committment ploughing their own furrow who would barely notice the loss of a "big gun". From your last post Im guessing that you're not comfortable with the idea that a myriad of styles can be encompassed in the one scene or that one man's view of Northern is equally valid as the next and you yearn for the return of the "Head Chef" to whip up a consistent menu but those days are long gone. ROD

But at least Elvis Davis gets it He did the costumes for "Braveheart". I trust he learnt his lesson with Mel and hasn't got Keb dancing to "Country Woad" ROD

I think Paul we're getting sidetracked with this age thing and screwing up Barry's thread. You're right though there were hundreds attending clubs prior to mid 70's Wigan of which IMO not very many were 13 or 14 and most of whom drifted away either during the first half of the 70's or soon after. I think Ed's reference to 75 is purely tongue-in-cheek in that we will keep going till we drop. That of course assumes that today's fans are more committed than those that went before and begs the question whether it was just a phase or a fad for many, such as referred to by Malc, and Im sure we can all think of people who were very active and involved who just packed it in. Scene keeps on though. I put it down to those not quite 50 who are the "new blood" everybody talks about!!! ROD

"They would all wear badges, and carry a sports hold-all, decorated with badges from Northern Soul clubs, which would carry a change of clothing and deodorant, talcum powder to put on the floor and perhaps records." Above is an extract from SteveM's link. Come on,they're taking the p...!!! ROD

"That's not such an unsual occurance, you know NS boy meets girl, NS boy shags girl, NS boy marries girl, NS boy becomes a NS big boy and girl becomes a woman, have children, get a mortgage, have a life, etc. etc................." I have some trouble understanding that line of reasoning too,Chris. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. ROD

"The biggest ever number of 'official Northern Soul fans' were starting off between 1975 and 1977 at about 13 or 14 year old." Not sure what that's about but I don't remember many 13 or 14 year olds at say the Mecca in 1976. I don't really think age has anything to do with most people's decision to stop attending. ROD

Updated list. OK not the best 45s in the World but some are decent records. Will sell of course too.

I think "stalwarts" have been leaving on a regular basis since I started on this scene. Im sure we can all think of past dj's,collectors,"movers and shakers" who are no longer around. If they left a hole it was soon filled. Their contribution to it all is not lost cos the legacy is there in what is played and although it could be argued that their part in it was greater than some,it is referred to as a "grassroots" scene and IMO everybody plays a part. I don't think there's anything to worry about just yet. ROD

I guess it depends on your definition of "weak" productions. It suggests to me basic or maybe poor or amateurish but then you'd have to be comparing them with what? Im not sure but again I'd guess an overall standard of past 45s but then we all have our preferred style. Like Stevie said something a bit more concrete. I do share your general feeling but I just figured I was getting old and out of touch. Apologies to anybody trying to sell these 45s but in response to Stevie's request things that spring to my mind that I've listened to recently on here are the Debonettes [Merry] which just sounds messy, Three Heads[Chart],messy and too white and David Carboni, MOR and white. It's not that I'd describe them as weak but just not what they are purported to be. Basically they're not Northern cos they don't have the right ingredients in the right place IMO. To labour the "weak" point I guess one of my faves right now is that Lenard Adair that Andy K is selling. I suppose you could call that basic or amateurish in that it's just a simple groove [similar to Rascal's "Groovin'" IMO] but everything just gels. Maybe in the search for something different the boundaries begin to shift and stuff comes through that maybe shouldn't. ROD

I really can't think of anybody with an exaggerated sense of their own importance but I will get my P.A. to check. ROD

I've got a lot that some Polish collector must have owned at one time as he's stamped his surname in the run-out. Ztsc. Anyone know him? ROD

Im afraid that was one of mine!! Sold it to Richard along with that Peter Jarrett "Run baby ..." on MGM. Anything unknown soulful and midtempo probably went in my dustbin. Those were the days. ROD

Anyone mentioned Chordettes "Rorripop" ? OK a bit non-PC but until China frees Norman Tebbit they're fair game. ROD

Northern. It's NOT Beach. "Far away places" is Beach side which is why you see that side of MGM 45 on re-issues now and again. BMR is it? ROD

OK Brian,that's 4 outta the list that you and I reckon were played in the main room,and I have my doubts about Banks 45 as I bet at the time it was a quid 45 if that. What Im saying is that to specifically cite Wigan Casino and then come up with a random selection of Northern is a bit sloppy BUT it's only a film and historical accuracy is not important. However why anyone would want to see it is beyond me. Boy meets girl sounds pretty dull. New "Stargate" film on Sky next week. Now that is worth getting excited about as Jack O'Neill is back!!! ROD