Sunnysoul

Paul, what an absolute pleasure and a privilege it is to have you here on Soul Source. You are truly a legend of soul music !!!

Australian Stateside

PMd you

I'm going fishing, looks like there's plenty of red herrings about today ...

If it were Ian Levine playing the kind of mind games that John Manship is playing at the moment then he would be crucified for it ...

John, I'm curious where you quoted/paraphrased that remark about Eddie Holland, but Eddie Holland himself has said in interviews several times that, basically, he just wasn't cut out to be a live/stage performer, and the fact that he and Holland - Dozier had been hitting big with the Supremes really made him make up his own mind that he was better off behind the scenes, rather than behind the microphone. I said it in my earlier post ... that in 1965, Frank Wilson would still have been a very minor figure in the whole Motown set up, not to mention being located a long way away out in LA, and it would be some time before Berry Gordy would realise the true value of the Motown LA office and sow the seed in his own mind of actually moving the company to LA. Let's not forget how Motown treated Brenda Holloway (who was based in LA, for those on here that didn't know) through '64-67, or rather, how they took her and her talent for granted. I also said that Gordy was the arch pragmatist. If he and Motown's marketing people thought that they could have a million seller with "Do I Love You" they would have released it quick smart ! And that's no matter what Frank himself has gone down in print as saying he recalls as regards his conversation with Berry outside the 20 Grand Club, as set out in some of the earlier posts on here (no disrespect to Frank, but how many artists have recalled the old days through rose coloured glasses and got their recollections plainly wrong?). And if Berry was impressed by Frank's work on the Miracles' "Whole Shakin In My Heart", he would have been disappointed by its chart performance, as it was one of the Miracles smallest chart hits of the time. It's likely that dropping Frank Wilson from the release schedule was a purely commercial decision. They needed to put all their promotional muscle behind the established hit making artists, not compromise them by shifting focus to Frank Wilson. That's probably why artists like Tommy Good and even Marv Johnson never got any promotional push. Same with the Velvelettes' magnificent records; there was only so much room for hitmaking girl groups on the roster ! And realistically, the magnificence of "Do I Love You" would not have been quite so clear cut to Motown's Quality Control Dept in 1965 in light of hits like Going To A Go Go and Dancing In The Street .... as it was to us Northern soul fans decades later... So, if "Do I Love You" goes to auction and fetches a massive price and all the publicity that goes with it (and has already been generated!), then let's just see how soon it is before more copies begin to surface in no time at all ... As they say in this world, money talks !!!

That would probably make Frankie Kahrl the highest priced US 45 issued by Motown from the 70s/80s, wouldn't it ? Any other Motown 45s from the 70s/80s in that league ?

Yeah, I see you've been playing it Steve, are you able to post clips of both sides ? And what's the current going rate ?

What's the current value of this please (stock copy) ? Could someone also kindly post a refosoul clip of the track I'm In Love ? Many thanks.

If there is another Frank Wilson to be offered for auction by John, it will not surprise. I've said it before on soul source several times over the years that, on the balance of probabilities, there just had to be more copies in existence. Wipe away all the myths that have evolved since the record hit the northern scene in the 70's and think about about all of this logically and sensibly ... and answer the following: Why would would Motown only have pressed up just a handful of demo copies of Frank Wilson - if a handful was in fact all there ever was - if they wanted to promote and break the record with radio stations across America in the normal way as they did with just about all their other releases ? And even if Motown actually pressed up more than a handful, a few boxes of them even, why go to the trouble of destroying them apart from a file copy or two - as the story goes - if Berry Gordy and his Marketing Department had decided against promoting the record ? To prevent the record from becoming becoming popular and avoid having their up and coming young producer Frank Wilson from becoming a performing star ? Don't think so: Gordy was the ultimate pragmatist and if he felt that a record would be a hit and earn the company millions, you can bet he would have put it out ! Frank Wilson wasn't that important to Motown in the general scheme of things in '65 ! And why actually destroy almost all known copies ? They weren't state secrets that had to be shredded out of existence !!! All Motown had to do was toss the boxes away in the vaults and forget about them and that would have been the end of it ! More likely the Motown Marketing Department had simply decided that by this time they were having so many hits on their other more established artists that they couldn't fit the Frank Wilson record into the release schedule at that time to the detriment of one of their other acts. Better to use all their promotional muscle on the next 4 Tops or Miracles release than on Frank Wilson. It's a music industry maxim that one company can only put out a certain amount of product on the market at any one time without affecting their other releases, right ? ......................... Incidentally, I suspect that the winning bidder will be a Motown label completist from the US and that the winning bid will be well over the $40,000.00 to 50,000.00 US mark. ......................... And there are probably more copies of Frank Wilson out there in the world ... possibly in the hands of record collectors who neither know about nor care about the northern scene ... and who have no desire to trumpet the fact that they own it to the northern scene or anyone else for that matter .

If you, or any other Soul Source member reading this thread, has an original US copy of The Ultimates LP on TSG, I would be happy to purchase it from you at 250 UK GBP.

Yes, well, they may be spot-able for a regular LP enthusiast ... but for many on the northern scene, which is much more 45 orientated, one can easily be deceived, as is often the case with the Skull Snaps LP in relation to which many a northern collector has unfortunately been burned.

Yep, definite original Roger, and the inner surface of the cardboard sleeve is coloured brown (not white as on the repro). Your original also shows the dull brown colour GSF label, whereas the label on the repro is brighter and shinier ... Great & essential (funk) LP , you should never have sold it !

Quite amazing how they get away with it. Over the last decade and a half they've done reproductions of virtually every collectible soul and funk LP in existence. It's been suggested that they've obtained legal licensing rights to some of the product but I doubt it, as a few years ago they were putting out repros of Motown LPs like Edwin Starr's Soul Master and 25 Miles ... and Motown is one organisation that zealously guards its legal rights or charges like bulls if you want to license something... Most of these repros are fairly easy to spot as they have digitally printed sleeves with the image on white cardboard and the vinyl is obviously differently pressed to the original. However, unless you've had an original issue of a particular LP actually pass through your hands, it can sometimes be difficult to tell, especially once the repro has had a bit of normal wear and tear on it and making it look "old". I've never taken the time to check whether these repros also contain the matrix numbers of the original LPs, but funk and soul LP collectors continually get burned on ebay by sellers who can't tell the difference between the original and the repro. Familiar scenario to those on the northern scene isn't it? The Joe Quarterman LP, like the The Skullsnaps LP, both on the GSF label, has a machine stamped Bell Sound marking in the run out, if my memory serves correct.

Could well be any one of the third, fourth, fifth, sixth or more copies that may have been in existence, unbeknown - until now - to the northern scene ...

I'm with Maria, particularly on the point about having an emotional attachment to the vinyl, and have never cared about what they may or may not be worth at some point in the future. Great soul records are pieces of art after all, both the music and the records themselves !

Is that UK or US Mowest ?

Just pm'd ya ! Cheers !

There have been three vinyl LP releases on the Ultimates. One on the TSG label in the US, one on Graham International in the US, and a Japanese P-Vine LP containing 6 bonus tracks in addition to those on the aforementioned LP's. Can anyone confirm however exactly which versions/mixes of "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You" appear on each of those, and whether the bonus tracks on the Japanese LP contain any quality tracks to rival Girl I've Been Trying ?

Yes, but all that sparrow-like nasal warbling and pseudo vocal gymnastics that Beyonce and every popette since Mariah Carey have indulged in. Truly awful and totally unsuited to the song! Etta James is a pure soul and blues singer, Beyonce is definitely not ...

Sorry Mike ! LOL ! But, you know, I can't count the number of times I've seen and heard truly legendary blues and soul artists - in the twilight of their careers - being complimentary towards far, far lesser performers, as here. Excuse my cynicism, but I believe, in most cases, the legends are simply being respectful, dignified and courteous towards these pretenders, and more than anything doing it out of appreciation of the belated recognition of their work; the legends have nothing to gain by being negative and sour in their old age. I read one interview with Bobby Bland (was it in Mojo Magazine?) last year on Mick Hucknall's tribute to Bobby and couldn't help feeling that the tone of Bobby's responses consisted of the minimum amount of common politeness through gritted teeth as regards Hucknall and Hucknall's singing.

What a terrible shame, though, that they had that warbling pop puppet Beyonce butchering "At Last" in front of the presidential couple when they could have had Etta James doing the song true justice ...

Pam Sawyer and Lori Burton had, for a time in the 60's, their songs published through Flomar Music Inc, and it's likely that whoever issued this record, made an error in both the spelling and the crediting (to a record "label", rather than a publisher). Begs the question, as Sebastian is hinting, is there a US release for this, as the scan doesn't "look" as if the record is manufactured in the US ?

Mitchell Braithwaite's version is excellent but a must listen is the fabulous cross-over version by Clarence Carter off his "Dynamic Clarence Carter" LP from '68 !!! https://www.deezer.com/track/you-ve-been-a-...version-T747146

Darryl, Billy Terrell and Ray Dahrouge themselves are also extremely well known names in soul music circles !!! Billy is the man behind Benny Troy's "I Wanna Give You Tomorrow" on De Lite and Ray is the guy who wrote "I Can See Him Making Love To You" for the Anderson Brothers, just to name a few, and had records out on themselves such as Ray Dahrouge's great "Lifetime Guarantee of Love". Think the three of you should come out on tour and do a Soul Roadshow !!!