Modernsoulsucks

Please don't bother as we're not going to agree. Although if you wish to explain and justify punk again that's up to you but maybe start a new thread in Freebasing so we don't continue to hijack Barry's. I have no interest in the music at all. Nor astoundingly do I have any interest in any of the other groups you mention. You obviously don't understand although you keep saying I don't. Im not into pop music. Haven't been since early 1968. The fact that I don't like punk or what came after is extremely relevant in that I have no wish to hear your interpretation of it's "place" then or now. That music has had no effect on me at all or on most people I know of varying ages,interests and backgrounds. It was just something I heard now and again but not by choice. ROD

Just wanted to add to my observation on loutish behaviour with the following quote. "One of the worst things about punk was the gobbing (spitting) at bands. I remember seeing The Clash take to the stage in a hail of spit that looked like a snowstorm! Who started these shenanigans then ? "Apparently the origin of spitting at gigs came from an early Damned gig at which somebody threw a can of beer at Rat Scabies and he just went up to the bloke, pulled him up by the scruff of the neck and spat in his face. From then on everyone decided spitting was a good idea" Severin of the Banshees (The Damned's nemesis) seems to concur " I don't know who started it , but it was probably that arsehole Rat Scabies from the Damned." Ooh you bitch Severin !!! Ramones on stage Rainbow London December 1978 A shower of beer and gob illuminated by the stage lights. Johnny Rotten disagrees though " I think the audiences gobbing on stage came from me. Because of my sinuses, I do gob a lot on stage, but never out toward the crowd...But the press will jump on that, and the next week you get an audience thinking that's its part of the fashion and everybody has to be in on it. There's not much you can do to stop it after that." Very phlegmatic if you'll excuse the pun John. Says Julien Temple (Rock'N' Roll Swindle director) " When Rotten finally came out on stage, it was like Agincourt. There were these massed volleys of gob flying through the air that just hung John like a Medusa." Siouxsie caught conjunctivitis after gob landed in her eye. Strummer got glandular fever after he swallowed it. Bands like The Clash, Pistols etc would be playing with huge big gobs landing on their strings. No wonder punk bands played fast and wanted to fight their audiences !" Youthful exuberance? Drunken, boorish and loutish IMO. No doubt again I don't get it. Think I was taught not to spit in public at a very early age by my parents. ROD

OK TV over. I see we kinda agree on the soul thing so that leaves your perception of punk as a participant and mine as an outsider so of course Im on a hiding to nothing here. In early '77 I was 24 and an Executive Oficer in the MOD. No doubt part of the fascist regime, as the Sex Pisrtols would have it, of the Labour Party under Callaghan. With a support team of four and responsible for the pay and conditions of around 100 Quality Assurance staff scattered around the country engaged in defence procurement. Pretty responsible job and lots of pressure. I believe I was mature enough to carry out those duties and certainly capable of assessing the punk scene and it's relevance to me at the time. I was interested in what was going on around me in society and politics and no doubt had a different understanding to that of a 17 year old. Used to read NME and saw it coming up. The pictures taken on the King's Road where the fashion shops sold the tartan bondage trousers and all the other bits of the uniform that made the punks so very individual from the off. I even got to hear a lot of the music because I was buying it in quantity to send over to a guy in St. Louis in exchange for Northern. Im sorry but to my ears it was more of the same white guitar pop music. No it didn't sound like Blodwyn Pig or the Bay City Rollers but compared to 60's soul it was absolutely bobbins. As for the radical lyric content no I can't come up with a specific "rock" track but I'd guess there are plenty of UK folk songs that deal with the plight of the common man under a harsh system. A lot harsher than that of 1977 I'd think. And yes I read the articles in NME espousing their views. Can't remember any of it really as it wasn't exactly a new way of looking at things as far as I was concerned. Thumbing one's nose at the Queen and authority in general didn't strike me as particularly radical. We'd been leaving the cinema before the National Anthem for quite some time before that. Getting people together to combat racism was a positive achievment I admit but a certain irony in that music papers like the NME could champion that and yet you'd be hard pressed to find any coverage of Black Music in them, which was of course why B&S, Echoes [was it? - the other glossy] and fanzines were doing so well. I didn't go to any of those concerts but then the music was not my thing. And hopefully I lived my life in accordance with those principles anyway. And BTW I didn't need anybody to tell me that racism and fascism were wrong so I think I can comment on it even though you think I don't understand. I'd say maybe you as a self-confessed football hooligan in the 70's at a time when the NF were extremely active on the terraces didn't understand at the time. It now turns out that there were the right kinds of punks who were socially aware and the punk clones which was not perhaps immediately apparent to the outsider. I musta been unlucky and kept bumping into the clones on the streets of Manchester sat in groups drinking and foul-mouthed or running the occasional guantlet on the way to Wigan ot the incident at Northwich allnighter when they smashed the doors and a pitched battle took place. I don't disbelieve you because my sister-in-law is an ex-punk. She was married to some guy in the Notsensibles [from Burnley or Blackburn] and performed poetry on stage with them and is now gay and working in women's rights in London and is a published poet. I guess a positive life-enhancing experience for her. Musically clueless. Last known gig. Take That at Stretford. So Im sorry but I don't buy your above average intelligence punks or the threat it posed to the system by somehow empowering the working class. It was just pop music packaged for maximum financial gain that perhaps had the rather clever idea of wrapping it in a social/political message to gain credibility and appeal. A ploy we've seen used since from Red Wedge to Bono to Free Nelson Mandela. It was never a threat because it was a minority interest confined to the young who were politically powerless anyway and so the State never had to come down hard on it unless you think banning records from Radio 1 is oppression. I may concede that it did have an effect on some people like my sister-in-law but to say it changed the cultural/musical face of the UK doesn't ring true to me either. It was a short-lived musical fad alongside as you say Two-Tone and the Mod groups and you have to look to the other side of the Pond to see where the dominant fashion and music comes from today which is of course Hip-Hop/R&B. ROD

FFS Jocko, this isn't a reply but a dissertation. I type with one finger. I was hopefully trying to answer Paul in the context of how I understood Barry's initial posting. Im not comfortable with the idea that somehow you need to travel to certain venues [Lifeline was mentioned]to be "truly inspired" by the music. Yes, the guys in the Legion having a drink with their mates is not how Paul sees the scene but I don't know how one can jump to the conclusion that they are somehow less committed to the music nor that they are somehow responsible for any failings in the "progressive" scene as you are now suggesting. Barry referred to an "integral" part and as such I see those people as no less entitled to call themselves "soulies" as anyone else being part of a shared experience but which can take many forms. I will try and answer any other points but right now it's tea-time, Clare's home and it's must watch TV after that. Chorleysoul is gunning for me too so I may be under the bed. ROD

I'm not. ROD

I do understand the point you're making but I don't think the scene ever was really all about youthful rebellion. It was purely the music, for me anyway. The allnighters and the "speed" obviously gave it a certain edge compared to a night at the local disco but I doubt we were in essence doing any different socially to others outside the scene. Im sure getting bladdered, having a ruckus and trying to cop-off was someone else's idea of teenage kicks and escaping the reality of a mundane job. Whatever you felt then and reflect upon now it's only your personal interpretation of how it was, and you cannot expect 30 years on to feel the same excitement, at what was then a novel experience, and then turn around and say I've not changed but the scene has. We probably all look back through a golden mist. My own baggage is that I thought of it as a working class phenomena but now I feel Im slightly priced out, if you know what I mean. It's moved upmarket. However that doesn't mean I think the scene is rubbish or blame it for how it's evolved. The original idea is still there and as you say there are places where you can meet like-minded people. You take your enjoyment where you can. Peace? Please don't tell me you were a hippy as well. ROD

Thanks for that Ady. After Chorleysoul's intervention I was beginning to doubt my recollections. I can see the similarities obviously but by '77 the NS scene wasn't really a "youth cult" in the same way as punk. I don't know what date you'd say NS started but say '68/9 so by then it's 9 years old. If you got on it at 16 you're then 25. Married maybe, responsibilities/independent living, working etc. Youthful rebellion was pretty far away in the past for me. I know we then had a big influx of younger people going to Wigan in 75/6 [sorry dates are not set in stone] so Im guessing these would have been the audience that could have gravitated toward punk but went for NS instead. Or in a few cases both. Think I remember Chris Harrop. From Wales? Wasn't he older and shoulda known better. ROD

I was completely unaware that "a lot of people" were into punk and Northern during that period. Certainly no one I knew was [OK maybe Godz],because as you say musically they were poles apart. As a 15 year old Im sure it was an opportunity to express discontent and feel part of a movement that would change society for the better. To a 23 year old, as I was then, it was the same old rock music carefully hyped and exploited which attracted a bunch of boozed-up louts. Maybe in the beginning it wasn't like that but I couldn't really get past that flirtation with wearing Nazi regalia as a fashion statement without a moment's thought as to whom it could offend. We are different ages so I don't have your baggage about "white pop shite" at Wigan. There were very few I liked and I've got maybe Paul Anka and a couple more. You seem to have the need to atone for that period in your life by embarking on a crusade now. I didn't denigrate anybody's involvement in the scene but again you come back to this small group of people who are doing it your way which is of course the right way. And surprisingly I do agree up to a point that without fresh exciting sounds the original ethos would be lost. I also agree that to hear those sounds the best place is in a club loud on a good system. The only provisos I have is that not every sound is fresh and exciting to everybody as tastes differ and that those who do attend clubs regularly that stick to a safer format are not somehow second class. Their contribution is as valid as yours. You are all still part of the same scene, albeit fragmented, and both play a part in making the whole. I guess DDA and Lowton would be an example. Going back to the original question I don't feel less of a soul fan than you because I no longer attend. I don't feel the need to pioneer. I did turn up a few 45s in my time that went on to be staples but Im now happy to collect and still get to hear good records new to me that I like. I actually have a pretty wide taste [don't judge a book by it's cover] including hip-hop, funk and reggae. I've always thought that if you restrict yourself to only one form of music you tend to lose your ear. I was actually [thru my then girlfriend] dj-ing around Manchester in early 90's playing hip-hop, Jazz,rare groove and funk. It was when I turned up with her for a spot and they thought I was her taxi driver that I knew I'd made the right choice in taking a backseat. ROD

Perhaps then you can explain this patronising twaddle "I actually know from travelling and going out that there is only a very small group of people who travel regularly and are truly inspired by music...FACT!" Im not that sure but it would appear from reading his posts that lots of us on here were inspired by the music whilst Mr Sadot was dabbling in the punk scene. And now some of us don't fit his template? Im also surprised you'd find it odd that the R&B crowd were not that interested in 70's and 80's or House and current R&B for that matter. Why would that lack question the validity of their vision. It's not my cuppa tea either but at least they have an ethos and don't water down the essence to gain the approval of outsiders. ROD

If you're asking do you feel any less of a "soulie" cos you don't attend regularly or in my case hardly ever now then the answer is no. Are you regarded as less of a soulie? Who gives a f**k. I think the importance of the actual scene may depend on when or how you got into the music. I probably started buying soul and reggae 45s with the usual Stax,Atlantic,Motown at tail-end of '67 beginning of '68. Records I heard on the radio [Luxembourg,Caroline and maybe AFN and "Rosko a bit later], in local discos that were not entirely soul-orientated but where Motown etc were the staple fodder at that time and of course the youth club. Amongst the "Land of 1000 dances", "Show me" etc there was Bob Brady and Darrell Banks so I guess the embryo Northern sound attracted me. I had no idea there was a scene really until maybe '69 and bumping into Francis T in Ralph's Records in Stockport. I was probably lucky living near Manchester as there were plenty of clubs operating soul nights which I then got into although it was August '71 before I went to my first allnighter in Crewe. Pretty sure I woulda heard whatever was popular at the Wheel at the time in places like Poco-Poco and Ashton Birdcage which attracted the same clientelle. Always more interested in buying, and after meeting Francis T selling to buy, 45s than just for the social aspect or dancing allnight so for me the allnighters were just a means to that end. With Ebay and the wealth of tracks available on the net and this site of course I no longer have to go to hear something different to me and without wishing to be dismissive I looked at the Lifeline [as Paul mentioned it] playlists and most of it was pretty familiar if you collect or as I did spent quite a lot of time in US looking for records. I guess the only thing that would entice me out nowadays would be where there were lots of sellers. Cheap sellers at that! I suppose Im not supporting the scene but then Im actually only concerned with my own personal enjoyment and don't actually care what others do or think. At 57 I also feel a bit past-it too. ROD

Not quite sure what you're getting at there. In fact not a f**kin' clue. Haggling usually leads nowhere. I have in mind a transaction I witnessed a couple of years back where it must have gone on for up to an hour touching on everything from when the 45 was first played, how good it was compared to his other tracks and tracks not by him and how his mate almost had a copy at.... etc etc. No Sale. Buyer and seller were too far apart anyway to start with. Putting in an offer is fine. When I sell Im not averse to a bit of discount especially where multiple purchases come into it. However I personally wouldn't haggle with an obvious lunatic but I would make an offer if my estimate and the seller's price were very close [£5-10]. I kinda only buy off people I think are reasonable anyway. I don't waste my time but also I don't want to waste the lunatic's time either. He is free to charge what he wants too. ROD

Actually if Im buying I don't like to haggle. If I buy a loaf I don't expect to waste my time arguing over it. I just like to see 45s priced up for sale with the condition listed alongside. Anybody can overestimate the going rate but if it's more than the odd one and over a couple of listings Im afraid that's it for me and I don't even bother looking at future listings. ROD

The name is not that familiar unless he's Pete the Fireman from Rochdale was it? Think he moved away from civilisation down to Midlands somewhere. But anyway I too used to go in Ralphs although spent most time in the Stockport branch. There were 45s on show in Manchester with one of those "locking bars" through the centres. There were UK records in there so obviously the centres had been knocked out. Who by no idea. ROD

Then perhaps no, they're just drawing attention to themselves as being chancers. And once you have that in your mind you're less likely to buy then or in the future.. Well I am anyway. ROD

Well I can see 45s that I consider overpriced but where is the evidence that they are selling in any great quantity? As Smigger said a lot just go round and round with occasional appearances on Ebay inbetween. There's not many on here that update their sales lists so apart from remembering if it was on previously there's no way of telling. There are lots of ads with no replies on the actual thread but then there is the PM facility. As for mugs, I think most on here are pretty astute and some not shy in pointing out the more adventerous pricing as can be seen in Pete French's ad for wants. ROD

And having garotted two security guards and an innocent passer-by he made good his escape. ROD

I quite like the other side of the Bell Boys. Bit tricky though. ROD

I've no idea but he did have it on a "record" blank same as the original "Rat Race". Listened to a few things he had lying about and just said "this one". Thought it would help sell the other side. Typical Detroit instr kinda thing. ROD

They are legit. Got Gino to press some copies up and paid him upfront. Only got half and he made rest up with Tomangoes re-issues. He didn't even put the track I asked for on b-side. Some instr he had a "blank" of. I was NOT happy. ROD

Rather morbid but true. What about a drop when we're all pensioners which will be sooner. Although I guess there may be a flurry when people get their lump sums. Personally from my experience I still don't believe that you can't sell a 45 as long as price is right and maybe some need to take on board that they're not going to get what they thought a record was worth and instead of blaming recession or whatever, realise it is a fluctuating market. Yesterday I noticed the same 45 on here for £200 and £100 in same condition. What's that about? Last time I checked the £100 copy was still there unless the list has not been updated. And then there's the game everyone plays with the Manship guide/auction result. I see Godz is selling a WDJ £100 less than Manny. There's really little sense to it as far as I can see. ROD

I meant that the "uptown" sound as far as #1's go is represented by Motown in the main. I think Fontella Bass is there too. I dont think "uptown" as a whole can be equated with Northern because the phrase refers to a slicker more polished style of soul which included all tempos and of course artists coming under that umbrella like the Impressions, O'Jays, Jackie Wilson, Delfonics had a repertoire much wider than just danceable records modelled on Motown. The #1 chart from 65 and 66, which I chose as the two years from which many Northern 45s originate, shows that "uptown" was not an all-pervasive music form which swept America but one of many styles existing alongside each other from early JB funk to the grittier Atlantic/Stax sound. Without full charts it is only guesswork but working on an R&B Top 40 [i thought it was 40 and the Hot 100 was all styles of music] AND local charts 20% of those 45s making the charts would be classed as Northern, and a lot of those will be Motown and those records we stumbled upon in the early days. That's not 20% of all Northern records made these charts. And thinking about it you're most likely right there that it's less than 20%. Whilst Im sure lack of promotion, various forms of payola and the limited wattage of Black Music radio stations [limiting their reach outside a local area/city] were responsible for the lack of success of many records I don't think that's the whole story as to why most Northern 45s died a death. I'd put forward the theory that the way the music caught on over here was through the clubs with teenagers leading the way. In the US Im not so sure you would have had such clubs especially with the strict drinking laws and the music would have been heard predominantly on the radio and at parties. I don't think the Sweet Things on a 60's radio or record player is gonna sound anything like it does booming out over a good system. The impact of such records perhaps was not as evident back then? And of course if you're living in Detroit why go somewhere to hear a DJ play 45s when you can just go and see the act. Anyway I do agree that it wasn't that at the time Black America didn't like the sound but just that in a lot of instances they didn't get to hear it. They do have that opportunity now with the advent of re-issue CDs from here, Europe,and the USA and as you say you have been surprised by what you've heard. If it's on the radio it's probably a CD unless a specialist show but I don't think any of that would be possible if it wasn't for the UK. However I dont think it's actually impacted on those who were actually there in the 60's/70's whom you would think might have a liking for this type of music. From my experience of visiting Chicago on numerous occasions back in the late 80's/early 90's the Dusty's station [and one time visiting a club with around 300 people, maybe more, age range 30-50 say] only played the odd Chicago 60's local release and the main emphasis was on the 70's. I think there was one specialist show late at night at a weekend. At the club the dj did play "The Drifter" and "Forget about me" but no one was dancing and they were the only 60's sounds I can remember hearing as they were played one after another. People's Choice "Do it anyway you wanna" had them all up twice doing a "line" dance. I couldn't help feeling a little disappointed that all that great music originating out of that city hadn't featured at all. ROD

Bobby Patterson "Im in love with you" JETSTAR £50 I guess ROD

This thread feels like it's a mutual support group for worried sellers/collectors. Now unless I've imagined it at the few venues I've attended over past couple of years there are guys sat behind big boxes of 45s doing from my observation very little business with the general punter. Why? Well cos they're overprived compared to Ebay, condition seems to be an alien concept and as it's a sideline for most there's no compulsion to be competitive or reasonable unless of course you actually need the money. I did this selling for a business for 12 years. It was impossible to build up large stocks of decent records unless I got quantity on a title because as soon as it was on the stall it had gone either face to face or on a mailing list. I reckon a week was a long time for most titles. And a lot of this was during the supposedly lean times. Unless these sellers now are getting in 300 [average size of box for sale but some have more]new records a week they shouldn't have any records to sell within a very short period. Im sure those who do attend venues regularly and spend their time trawling the boxes do notice the same old records cos I did in my time doing that. There are no wrong records just wrong prices. ROD

I've been selling some cheaper stuff on here for a mate in the US. Out of 75, 50 have gone. They're not in-demand 45s but in the main just decent Northern records. There appear to be plenty of buyers. I don't think they're at give-away prices either but compared to what I see them elsewhere they are reasonable. I think it boils down simply to people asking too much. James hits on a lot of the reasons why they do. ROD

I thought I said exactly what you are saying in your first paragraph. Thousands and thousands of releases in those 4 years. Major companies [hits]dominating but maybe 20% of what is now termed Northern turning up on national but more likely local [because it was as you say a local phenomena]charts. I am not talking about the sound but the actual 45s by individual groups. If as you say there were even acts with the same name in the same city unaware of each other then that does not suggest any kind of widespread appeal for a lot of releases. It did occur to me after I wrote this, and it's not meant as a definitive argument but things to consider, that I've no idea how R&B US chart was compiled. Over here I think it was "chart-return shops" but Im thinking it may have been radio play in the US. Im saying, and I agree with Chorleysoul, that a lot of the records we term Northern were popular enough to make various US charts but Im sure if we look at a Northern playlist from say 1970 and compare to a later one from 1976 the number of one-time US hits would have decreased dramatically as we dug deeper for those 45s with the right sound. I guess that would be something to do with the scene here starting with obscure [to us] UK releases which of course had been put out over here due to some success in the USA. Again that's not a hard and fast rule with every release over here but generally probably true. OK you've found one current act but out of how many? The offer was only open to Chorleysoul. You shoulda read the small print. However as a token Bobby Goldsboro will be winging it's way to Chicago soon. I forgot about "In the mood" but that's a sample which is not quite the same as an influence. And there's no need to swear. You are grounded. ROD