Modernsoulsucks

I was completely unaware that "a lot of people" were into punk and Northern during that period. Certainly no one I knew was [OK maybe Godz],because as you say musically they were poles apart. As a 15 year old Im sure it was an opportunity to express discontent and feel part of a movement that would change society for the better. To a 23 year old, as I was then, it was the same old rock music carefully hyped and exploited which attracted a bunch of boozed-up louts. Maybe in the beginning it wasn't like that but I couldn't really get past that flirtation with wearing Nazi regalia as a fashion statement without a moment's thought as to whom it could offend. We are different ages so I don't have your baggage about "white pop shite" at Wigan. There were very few I liked and I've got maybe Paul Anka and a couple more. You seem to have the need to atone for that period in your life by embarking on a crusade now. I didn't denigrate anybody's involvement in the scene but again you come back to this small group of people who are doing it your way which is of course the right way. And surprisingly I do agree up to a point that without fresh exciting sounds the original ethos would be lost. I also agree that to hear those sounds the best place is in a club loud on a good system. The only provisos I have is that not every sound is fresh and exciting to everybody as tastes differ and that those who do attend clubs regularly that stick to a safer format are not somehow second class. Their contribution is as valid as yours. You are all still part of the same scene, albeit fragmented, and both play a part in making the whole. I guess DDA and Lowton would be an example. Going back to the original question I don't feel less of a soul fan than you because I no longer attend. I don't feel the need to pioneer. I did turn up a few 45s in my time that went on to be staples but Im now happy to collect and still get to hear good records new to me that I like. I actually have a pretty wide taste [don't judge a book by it's cover] including hip-hop, funk and reggae. I've always thought that if you restrict yourself to only one form of music you tend to lose your ear. I was actually [thru my then girlfriend] dj-ing around Manchester in early 90's playing hip-hop, Jazz,rare groove and funk. It was when I turned up with her for a spot and they thought I was her taxi driver that I knew I'd made the right choice in taking a backseat. ROD

Perhaps then you can explain this patronising twaddle "I actually know from travelling and going out that there is only a very small group of people who travel regularly and are truly inspired by music...FACT!" Im not that sure but it would appear from reading his posts that lots of us on here were inspired by the music whilst Mr Sadot was dabbling in the punk scene. And now some of us don't fit his template? Im also surprised you'd find it odd that the R&B crowd were not that interested in 70's and 80's or House and current R&B for that matter. Why would that lack question the validity of their vision. It's not my cuppa tea either but at least they have an ethos and don't water down the essence to gain the approval of outsiders. ROD

If you're asking do you feel any less of a "soulie" cos you don't attend regularly or in my case hardly ever now then the answer is no. Are you regarded as less of a soulie? Who gives a f**k. I think the importance of the actual scene may depend on when or how you got into the music. I probably started buying soul and reggae 45s with the usual Stax,Atlantic,Motown at tail-end of '67 beginning of '68. Records I heard on the radio [Luxembourg,Caroline and maybe AFN and "Rosko a bit later], in local discos that were not entirely soul-orientated but where Motown etc were the staple fodder at that time and of course the youth club. Amongst the "Land of 1000 dances", "Show me" etc there was Bob Brady and Darrell Banks so I guess the embryo Northern sound attracted me. I had no idea there was a scene really until maybe '69 and bumping into Francis T in Ralph's Records in Stockport. I was probably lucky living near Manchester as there were plenty of clubs operating soul nights which I then got into although it was August '71 before I went to my first allnighter in Crewe. Pretty sure I woulda heard whatever was popular at the Wheel at the time in places like Poco-Poco and Ashton Birdcage which attracted the same clientelle. Always more interested in buying, and after meeting Francis T selling to buy, 45s than just for the social aspect or dancing allnight so for me the allnighters were just a means to that end. With Ebay and the wealth of tracks available on the net and this site of course I no longer have to go to hear something different to me and without wishing to be dismissive I looked at the Lifeline [as Paul mentioned it] playlists and most of it was pretty familiar if you collect or as I did spent quite a lot of time in US looking for records. I guess the only thing that would entice me out nowadays would be where there were lots of sellers. Cheap sellers at that! I suppose Im not supporting the scene but then Im actually only concerned with my own personal enjoyment and don't actually care what others do or think. At 57 I also feel a bit past-it too. ROD

Not quite sure what you're getting at there. In fact not a f**kin' clue. Haggling usually leads nowhere. I have in mind a transaction I witnessed a couple of years back where it must have gone on for up to an hour touching on everything from when the 45 was first played, how good it was compared to his other tracks and tracks not by him and how his mate almost had a copy at.... etc etc. No Sale. Buyer and seller were too far apart anyway to start with. Putting in an offer is fine. When I sell Im not averse to a bit of discount especially where multiple purchases come into it. However I personally wouldn't haggle with an obvious lunatic but I would make an offer if my estimate and the seller's price were very close [£5-10]. I kinda only buy off people I think are reasonable anyway. I don't waste my time but also I don't want to waste the lunatic's time either. He is free to charge what he wants too. ROD

Actually if Im buying I don't like to haggle. If I buy a loaf I don't expect to waste my time arguing over it. I just like to see 45s priced up for sale with the condition listed alongside. Anybody can overestimate the going rate but if it's more than the odd one and over a couple of listings Im afraid that's it for me and I don't even bother looking at future listings. ROD

The name is not that familiar unless he's Pete the Fireman from Rochdale was it? Think he moved away from civilisation down to Midlands somewhere. But anyway I too used to go in Ralphs although spent most time in the Stockport branch. There were 45s on show in Manchester with one of those "locking bars" through the centres. There were UK records in there so obviously the centres had been knocked out. Who by no idea. ROD

Then perhaps no, they're just drawing attention to themselves as being chancers. And once you have that in your mind you're less likely to buy then or in the future.. Well I am anyway. ROD

Well I can see 45s that I consider overpriced but where is the evidence that they are selling in any great quantity? As Smigger said a lot just go round and round with occasional appearances on Ebay inbetween. There's not many on here that update their sales lists so apart from remembering if it was on previously there's no way of telling. There are lots of ads with no replies on the actual thread but then there is the PM facility. As for mugs, I think most on here are pretty astute and some not shy in pointing out the more adventerous pricing as can be seen in Pete French's ad for wants. ROD

And having garotted two security guards and an innocent passer-by he made good his escape. ROD

I quite like the other side of the Bell Boys. Bit tricky though. ROD

I've no idea but he did have it on a "record" blank same as the original "Rat Race". Listened to a few things he had lying about and just said "this one". Thought it would help sell the other side. Typical Detroit instr kinda thing. ROD

They are legit. Got Gino to press some copies up and paid him upfront. Only got half and he made rest up with Tomangoes re-issues. He didn't even put the track I asked for on b-side. Some instr he had a "blank" of. I was NOT happy. ROD

Rather morbid but true. What about a drop when we're all pensioners which will be sooner. Although I guess there may be a flurry when people get their lump sums. Personally from my experience I still don't believe that you can't sell a 45 as long as price is right and maybe some need to take on board that they're not going to get what they thought a record was worth and instead of blaming recession or whatever, realise it is a fluctuating market. Yesterday I noticed the same 45 on here for £200 and £100 in same condition. What's that about? Last time I checked the £100 copy was still there unless the list has not been updated. And then there's the game everyone plays with the Manship guide/auction result. I see Godz is selling a WDJ £100 less than Manny. There's really little sense to it as far as I can see. ROD

I meant that the "uptown" sound as far as #1's go is represented by Motown in the main. I think Fontella Bass is there too. I dont think "uptown" as a whole can be equated with Northern because the phrase refers to a slicker more polished style of soul which included all tempos and of course artists coming under that umbrella like the Impressions, O'Jays, Jackie Wilson, Delfonics had a repertoire much wider than just danceable records modelled on Motown. The #1 chart from 65 and 66, which I chose as the two years from which many Northern 45s originate, shows that "uptown" was not an all-pervasive music form which swept America but one of many styles existing alongside each other from early JB funk to the grittier Atlantic/Stax sound. Without full charts it is only guesswork but working on an R&B Top 40 [i thought it was 40 and the Hot 100 was all styles of music] AND local charts 20% of those 45s making the charts would be classed as Northern, and a lot of those will be Motown and those records we stumbled upon in the early days. That's not 20% of all Northern records made these charts. And thinking about it you're most likely right there that it's less than 20%. Whilst Im sure lack of promotion, various forms of payola and the limited wattage of Black Music radio stations [limiting their reach outside a local area/city] were responsible for the lack of success of many records I don't think that's the whole story as to why most Northern 45s died a death. I'd put forward the theory that the way the music caught on over here was through the clubs with teenagers leading the way. In the US Im not so sure you would have had such clubs especially with the strict drinking laws and the music would have been heard predominantly on the radio and at parties. I don't think the Sweet Things on a 60's radio or record player is gonna sound anything like it does booming out over a good system. The impact of such records perhaps was not as evident back then? And of course if you're living in Detroit why go somewhere to hear a DJ play 45s when you can just go and see the act. Anyway I do agree that it wasn't that at the time Black America didn't like the sound but just that in a lot of instances they didn't get to hear it. They do have that opportunity now with the advent of re-issue CDs from here, Europe,and the USA and as you say you have been surprised by what you've heard. If it's on the radio it's probably a CD unless a specialist show but I don't think any of that would be possible if it wasn't for the UK. However I dont think it's actually impacted on those who were actually there in the 60's/70's whom you would think might have a liking for this type of music. From my experience of visiting Chicago on numerous occasions back in the late 80's/early 90's the Dusty's station [and one time visiting a club with around 300 people, maybe more, age range 30-50 say] only played the odd Chicago 60's local release and the main emphasis was on the 70's. I think there was one specialist show late at night at a weekend. At the club the dj did play "The Drifter" and "Forget about me" but no one was dancing and they were the only 60's sounds I can remember hearing as they were played one after another. People's Choice "Do it anyway you wanna" had them all up twice doing a "line" dance. I couldn't help feeling a little disappointed that all that great music originating out of that city hadn't featured at all. ROD

Bobby Patterson "Im in love with you" JETSTAR £50 I guess ROD

This thread feels like it's a mutual support group for worried sellers/collectors. Now unless I've imagined it at the few venues I've attended over past couple of years there are guys sat behind big boxes of 45s doing from my observation very little business with the general punter. Why? Well cos they're overprived compared to Ebay, condition seems to be an alien concept and as it's a sideline for most there's no compulsion to be competitive or reasonable unless of course you actually need the money. I did this selling for a business for 12 years. It was impossible to build up large stocks of decent records unless I got quantity on a title because as soon as it was on the stall it had gone either face to face or on a mailing list. I reckon a week was a long time for most titles. And a lot of this was during the supposedly lean times. Unless these sellers now are getting in 300 [average size of box for sale but some have more]new records a week they shouldn't have any records to sell within a very short period. Im sure those who do attend venues regularly and spend their time trawling the boxes do notice the same old records cos I did in my time doing that. There are no wrong records just wrong prices. ROD

I've been selling some cheaper stuff on here for a mate in the US. Out of 75, 50 have gone. They're not in-demand 45s but in the main just decent Northern records. There appear to be plenty of buyers. I don't think they're at give-away prices either but compared to what I see them elsewhere they are reasonable. I think it boils down simply to people asking too much. James hits on a lot of the reasons why they do. ROD

I thought I said exactly what you are saying in your first paragraph. Thousands and thousands of releases in those 4 years. Major companies [hits]dominating but maybe 20% of what is now termed Northern turning up on national but more likely local [because it was as you say a local phenomena]charts. I am not talking about the sound but the actual 45s by individual groups. If as you say there were even acts with the same name in the same city unaware of each other then that does not suggest any kind of widespread appeal for a lot of releases. It did occur to me after I wrote this, and it's not meant as a definitive argument but things to consider, that I've no idea how R&B US chart was compiled. Over here I think it was "chart-return shops" but Im thinking it may have been radio play in the US. Im saying, and I agree with Chorleysoul, that a lot of the records we term Northern were popular enough to make various US charts but Im sure if we look at a Northern playlist from say 1970 and compare to a later one from 1976 the number of one-time US hits would have decreased dramatically as we dug deeper for those 45s with the right sound. I guess that would be something to do with the scene here starting with obscure [to us] UK releases which of course had been put out over here due to some success in the USA. Again that's not a hard and fast rule with every release over here but generally probably true. OK you've found one current act but out of how many? The offer was only open to Chorleysoul. You shoulda read the small print. However as a token Bobby Goldsboro will be winging it's way to Chicago soon. I forgot about "In the mood" but that's a sample which is not quite the same as an influence. And there's no need to swear. You are grounded. ROD

I get the point you're making Chorleysoul but I think you're over-emphasising the impact of the 45s that later got played here at their time of release in USA. Here is a list of R&B #1's in 1966 1966 in music, List of number-one R&B hits (United States) Issue Date Song Artist January 1 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 8 A Sweet Woman Like You Joe Tex January 15 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown January 22 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder January 29 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 5 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 12 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 19 Uptight (Everything's Alright) Stevie Wonder February 26 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 5 Baby Scratch My Back Slim Harpo March 12 634-5789 (Soulsville, U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 19 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett March 26 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 2 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 9 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 16 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 23 634-5789 (Soulsville U.S.A.) Wilson Pickett April 30 Get Ready The Temptations May 7 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 14 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 21 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge May 28 When a Man Loves a Woman Percy Sledge June 4 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 11 It's a Man's Man's Man's World James Brown June 18 Hold On! I'm a Comin' Sam & Dave June 25 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 2 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 9 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 16 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations July 23 Let's Go Get Stoned Ray Charles July 30 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 6 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 13 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 20 Ain't Too Proud to Beg The Temptations August 27 Blowin' in the Wind Stevie Wonder September 3 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 10 You Can't Hurry Love The Supremes September 17 Land of a Thousand Dances Wilson Pickett September 24 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 1 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 8 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 15 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 22 Beauty Is Only Skin Deep The Temptations October 29 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 5 Reach Out I'll Be There The Four Tops November 12 Love Is a Hurtin' Thing Lou Rawls November 19 Knock On Wood Eddie Floyd November 26 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 3 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 10 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 17 You Keep Me Hangin' On The Supremes December 24 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations December 31 (I Know) I'm Losing You The Temptations And 1965 Issue Date Song Artist 2 January NO CHART 9 January NO CHART 16 January NO CHART 23 January NO CHART January 30 My Girl The Temptations February 6 My Girl The Temptations February 13 My Girl The Temptations February 20 My Girl The Temptations February 27 My Girl The Temptations March 6 My Girl The Temptations March 13 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 20 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars March 27 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 3 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 10 Shotgun Jr. Walker & the All-Stars April 17 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke April 24 Got To Get You Off My Mind Solomon Burke May 1 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 8 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 15 We're Gonna Make It Little Milton May 22 I'll Be Doggone Marvin Gaye May 29 Back in My Arms Again The Supremes June 5 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 12 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 19 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops June 26 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 3 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 10 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 17 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 24 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops July 31 I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) The Four Tops August 7 In the Midnight Hour Wilson Pickett August 14 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 21 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown August 28 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 4 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 11 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 18 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown September 25 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 2 Papa's Got a Brand New Bag (Part 1) James Brown October 9 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 16 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 23 I Want To (Do Everything For You) Joe Tex October 30 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 6 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 13 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 20 Rescue Me Fontella Bass November 27 Ain't That Peculiar Marvin Gaye December 4 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 11 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 18 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown December 25 I Got You (I Feel Good) James Brown Obviously these are just the #1's but it looks like the majors had it sown up and any uptown sound is on Motown. However Im guessing if you could get hold of any chart and actually looked through there would be very few "Northern" 45s . 20% perhaps. And most of that on local charts. The amount of stuff getting released as people as you say tried to emulate Motown's success would mean a lot fell by the wayside. No idea how many Northern 60's 45s there are but if we say the prime period for that style of music was say 64-68 then thats a hell of a lot of releases per week. Anyway I still contend that the UK did unearth forgotten 45s and we can be proud of that. The first rapper or R&B act that cites Tyrone Davis as an influence I'll give you my collection. ROD

Im getting confused now. Motown albums don't have pictures of cows on because the Germans have nicht 'em. ROD

I know this! Wait! "....... they're probably married and can't get a word in edgeways?" ROD

I think you may be a tad too critical there as the sentence structure was entirely in keeping with the original communication in spittle-flecked green ink. ROD

You're a fucking hypocrite who bends the rules to suit your sick self serving lying ego. If you don't ban James Trouble for that Michael Jackson posting, the shit is gonna hit you in the face. He sent abusive PMs to your members and you smiled about it,yetdeclared like some pompous headmaster that you'd caught me redhandedfor sending ONE that was pointing out a mild joke. YOU'RE ONE SICK TWISTED LYING FUCKER, AND I AM YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE, YOU C*NT. Because I will not let this rest. The Soul world is going to know what a two faced lying c*nt hypocrite you are." And next week Ian will be here to show you how to enliven that small talk and make for the perfect dinner party. ROD

My wife and I went for Guitar Ray "You're gonna wreck my life". ROD

Im sure everyone knows this but it's said JB was so incensed that he put out the A.A.B.B. version of AWB. ROD