Robbk

Which cuts on Way Out sound to you "close to Motown"? I'm surprised that Edwin Starr, Ragland's old Cleveland buddy, couldn't get him into The Snakepit.

A whole book could be written about the interplay between Detroit and Chicago's Soul Music industry during the 1960s, concerning Motown's recording their artists' records in Chicago and Motown's musicians recording in Chicago on Chicago labels' recording projects, Mike Hanks and Mike Terry recording Chicago artists contracted to Chicago labels (for Bill Ehrman's and Bob Catron's labels and Ric Williams' and Joshie Armstead's, and Bridges,Knight & Eaton's, Andre Williams', Barrett Strong's, Sonny Sanders', and Jerry-O's, Joe Murphy's, and Jimmy Holland's, and so many others bouncing between working in the two cities' music industries).

If only someone had asked this question between 2006 and 2010*, *when Soulful Detroit Forum changed its platform, and a large percentage of its thread archives were accidentally erased, and are now gone forever. When we started in early 2001 to about 2006, many of our threads were made up mostly of people who had been players in Detroit's record production and recording industry, plus heavy Detroit R&B and Soul record collectors (most of whom lived in Detroit or had regularly travelled to Detroit to scrounge for its obscure local records). The threads had 1960s Detroit producers, musicians, sound engineers, sing artists, even a few record label owners, and heavy Detroit record collectors, who were living and working in Detroit during the 1960s, or buying records there back then and talking about who did what and where. That included people that worked At Motown, Golden World, with Artie Fields, Don Davis, at Golden World Studio, in The Snakepit, at United Sound, stories about recording sessions at Pioneer, Special, Sidra, Tera-Shirma, where records were mastered and pressed, stories about how record projects came about, singers and groups were discovered, just about anything a historian and fan would want to ask. Researchers and history writers would just have had to read over those 2001 through mid 2010 SDF threads with a fine toothed comb, and write up a detailed history of The Detroit Soul Music industry during the 1960s. What a shame that no one did it. There were wonderful detailed first hand experienced stories that were often funny and very surprising, and gave the reader a great feel for what things were like back then. I was glad not only to be able to read them, but also to participate in those discussions. I have to thank my good friend Rod Shard, for turning me on to that website, soon after it started up, and David, for starting it up with Lowell, and Ralph Terrana for keeping it going these last many years.

Details of 1960s Detroit Soul Music recording studios opened starting in 1965 and after: Starting with 1965 studio foundations, ex-Motowner, now Independent producer, Dave Hamilton, moved his recording studio from his home on Philadelphia St. to a commercial property (ex-warehouse?) on Highland Ave. , partnering up with singer/songwriter Darrell Goolsby(AKA Rony Darrell). It was called T.C.B. Recording Studios. Also, with offices in that building, their new DaDa Productions produced records for their new labels, TCB Records and Topper Records (He later added Demoristic Records). They also recorded demos for outside indie producers. In addition to production for their own labels, they produced some record projects for Mercury Records, including "He Loves Me" and "He's The Right Kind of Guy" by The Chalfontes. Another 1965 opening was Lou Beatty's and Rev. James Hendrix's LaBeat Recording Co., on 14th St., which included the offices of Hendrix's Carrie Records, and Beatty's LaBeat/Mary Jane/Cool School Records. They recorded mostly for their own labels, plus a few recordings Beatty later leased to outside labels, and made demos for some outside clients. Their main artists included Edward Hamilton and The Arabians and The Masqueraders. However, I don't know of any outside customer's recoding session that led to even a locally charted record. Another '65 founding was Pioneer Recording Studio, owned and operated by Gary Rubin and Alan Sussman, who also operated Pioneer Records, whose best-selling records were by The Modernistics, and The Gambrells(whose "Jive Talk" is well known by Soulies). They operated from a commercial property on Tracy St. in 1965, and moved to a larger building on James Couzens in 1966. Most of their customers were outside clients, made up of tiny local record labels, aspiring singers and musicians wanting professionally-made demo tapes, and some advertising clients. Sometimes they got the odd order from larger labels whose favourite studio was booked up, and they wanted to get a recording made right away. There were several local hits on small Detroit labels that were recorded at Pioneer, but I cant remember which, at the moment. Artie Fields Productions was operating by 1965, but I'm not sure if he opened his recording studio to the public in '65 or '66. He operated Top Dog Records, which issued 45s by Joe Towns, Kris Peterson, and The Camel Drivers. His facilities, label, and rights were bought out by Motown in 1967. Joe Towns' "Together We Can Make Sweet Music" was recorded by The Spinners and its publishing transferred to Jobete Music. Fields, himself a Jazz musician, produced Jazz, Funk, and Pop Music, as well, most released on LPs. He did rent his studio out ton outside clients, and also recorded their artists for them. I can't recall any outside Soul 45s recorded there, at the moment. But, I remember that there were a few I've learned about in the past. Another of the more prominent Detroit recording studios founded in 1966 was Sidra, owned by Joe Casey and Raymond Jackson, with Rock-A-Billy singer and record producer, Johnny Powers(Nee John Pavlik (one-time SDF member back in our early days)) rumoured to have also been involved from its start. But I think his involvement only started in 1967, when he shut down his own Sound, Inc. Studio, and merged his operation with Sidra's. It was located in a warehouse-type building on Wyoming, and housed in addition to parent label Sidra Records, subsidiaries: Sound, W.I.G., Drew, and Teen Town Records. They recorded Barbara Mercer, Timmy Willis, Gwen Owens, The Precisions, Gino Washington, The Embraceables, and Ronnie & Robyn, among others, plus lots of Garage Bands, and Pop Music. As stated above Mike Terry, George McGregor, Mike Valvano/Coleman & Bassoline, The Pied Piper crew, and even Bridges/Knight/ & Eaton recorded quite a bit at Sidra. So did Mutt Records, whose owner, Nate Doré, had a tie in with Sidra. In fact, HE was the one who sent Bridges, Knight, & Eaton to Sidra to work on The Precisions' Drew cuts. Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey recorded a lot at Sidra, as well, in addition to recording at Tera-Shirma. Speaking of Johnny Powers, (who recorded Elvis impersonation Rock-A-Billy and C&W ballads for Motown for several years, and also recorded for Fortune, Fox, and even Sun Records), he founded Sound, Inc. Studios on Van Dyke St. also in 1966. He recorded mostly Garage Band, Rock, and Pop Music. But there were also a few '60s Soul records recorded there, including: Velgo 001 by Gwen Owens (her 2nd Velgo issue was recorded at New Mystical Recording), plus The Sharpetts' record on Sound City, plus Vivian Jones and Bernie Moore on Lark Records, all distributed by Sound, Inc. I seem to remember that there were 2 Soul 45s released on Sound Inc. Records, which must have been recorded in his studio, but I can't remember the artists. In early 1967 Powers shut down his recording studio, sand he merged his operations with Sidra's. Another 1966 foundation was Major Reynolds' Tri-Sound Recording Co., located on Hamilton Ave. Reynolds also operated Tri-Sound Records, which was located on Hamilton, in Highland Park. In addition to recording Ed Crook and The Devotions' records on his own label, he also recorded the Art Posey and Soulettes records on Scope Records. I don't think Tri-Sound lasted more than a year or two. I can't think of any other known records that were recorded there. I'd guess they recorded demos for aspiring artists, and recorded a few cuts for tiny labels, and maybe got a few "overload jobs" when the major studios were fully booked. Clearly, they didn't do well, or they'd have lasted longer. Another record company-owned studio started in 1966 was Diamond Jim Riley's Diamond Recording Company, located on Linwood St., which recorded mainly for Riley's labels, Riley's, Diamond Jim, and Big "D", as well as for outside clients. It's in-house band leader, (guitarist) Joey "Kingfish" Stribling, who came to Riley's from Thelma Records in 1966, after The Colemans were bought out by Berry Gordy, brought his band along to record for Riley's artists, as well as for smaller label's projects. He also was one of Riley's most used producers. They moved to a larger building on Dexter in 1967. I can't think of any specific smaller Detroit labels that recorded at Diamond, but I'm sure there were several - certainly those that were distributed locally by Riley's, when their records couldn't get picked up by a regional distributor. The last Detroit recording studio I know that was founded in 1966 was Viney Recording Studio, also on Dexter, owned and operated by singer, Forest Hairston. He operated Viney Records, whose only release that I know of was "We Go To Pieces", by himself. I assume that it was a very small operation, and he mainly recorded demos for aspiring artists. I can't remember any other small labels that used his studio. Danny Dallas opened his Sound Patterns DXM Recording Studio in 1967, on Chicago Ave. He also operated his own record label, Sound Patterns. He also had his own record out on Ernie Stratton';s Top Ten Records. He had worked as a sound engineer at United Sound and Special Recording, before that. I don't think his studio lasted more than a couple years, according to a few threads on Soulful Detroit Forum from the very early 2000s. He was really well liked by musicians Bob Babbitt, Dennis Coffey, George Katsakis, Bobby Eli, etc. Most of the records he recorded at Sound Patterns that I know about were Rock, and Garage Band music. I can't think of any Soul records recorded at Sound Patterns. I'm sure he worked on some at Special and United Sound. 1967 was also the year Guido Marasco opened GM Recording Studio, on East Nine Mile Road, whose name later changed to Bump Shop Recording, I think in 1970, named after the auto body shop, next door. His brother Johnny was chief sound engineer and ran the studio. They also operated The GM and Bump Shop record labels. They recorded Rock, Garage Band, Funk, and a few Soul records for their own record labels, as well as recordings for outside clients. The Soul records I know of that were recorded there were: 2 Dee Edwards records (1 on GM, and 1 on Bump Shop), both produced by Floyd Jones, 3 records by The Final Decisions (2 on Bump Shop, produced by Mike Terry, and one on Hi-C, produced by Jay Davis and arranged by Rudy Robinson), plus an Albert Jones record on Bump Shop, produced by Darrell Bell. I did hear that they recorded for outside clients. But I can't remember which Soul records were recorded there, or which other labels or producers used their services. I'd guess that Mike Terry recorded several more sessions there than the couple I described. Doc Kyle opened up Detroit Sound Recording Co. in 1966 or 1967 (not sure), on Grand River Ave., to serve his new Detroit Sound record label, as well as serve outside clients. Apparently, Chip Steiner ran the record label, as Kyle had a doctor's practice to operate (pardon the pun). (unless Steiner's Detroit Sound Record Co. was the OTHER Detroit-based Detroit Sound Records which released The Sequins' record in 1964. But I didn't think the 2 companies operated at the same time. In any case, I'm only referring to Kyles recording studio. The other label didn't own one. I have read and heard that Detroit Sound DID record for outside clients, but can't remember any specific records, outside labels or Soul artists that used their studio. They recorded Robert Walker and The Night Riders, The Detroit Vibrations, and The Little Sisters for their own label. This last studio, Dotty's Recording Co., was operating in 1967, but I'm not sure when it opened. owned and operated by Clifford Marshall, who operated Dotty's Records and Whip Records, and co-owned Northern Del-La Records together with Johnnie Mae Matthews. Those labels recorded Little Roger Hatcher, Johnny Hampton, Lee Jennings, Gail Nevels, Babbette & Mel, and Carol Anderson, as well as Telma Laverne (Thelma Hopkins), and Calvin Williams. (The latter 2 on Northern Del-La may have been recorded before the recording studio opened). I don't know if they recorded for outside clients, but most of the studios did. I don't know of any outside producers, other than Johnnie Mae Matthews, and the other producers from her other labels that would have recorded at Dotty's.

Thanks David, for clearing up the one or two Dearborn studios question. And yes, I learned about quite a few Detroit Studios I hadn't known about from reading your list and researching them further. That was a very valuable bunch of work to help save the knowledge of what happened in Detroit's music industry during the 1960s.

Thanks, David. Were BOTH of those studios in Dearborn, or was one in Detroit? Of course Echoic was owned by Leigh. It was located in his garage. It was a 1-man operation. So, I guess he did all his selling/marketing on his own. There were a LOT of Detroit residents operating taping services out of their garages or basements back in the 1950s and early '60s. It was only starting in mid 1964, after Motown started hitting it big, that so many recording studios started popping up in commercial buildings, with higher-level recording equipment. Between 1964 and 1967 there were more than 40 or so, I can think of even offhand! I'm writing details about those I know something about at this very moment (Part 2 - those founded after the start of 1965).

Details on Detroit Soul Music recording studios which opened before 1965 Part 1: As I stated above, after Motown, who rented out studio time up until mid 1964, United Sound Systems On 2nd St., run by Jimmy Syracuse, was the most active. It had run from 1933 to 1971, when it was taken over by Don Davis. It was, by far, the most active in Detroit for many years, until Motown started staying open 24 hours a day. Under Davis' administration, it continued to be quite active during the early 1970s. Golden World was next, and rented out LOTS of studio time to scores, if not hundreds of smaller indie Detroit labels, and often distributed the records they had recorded for them, using their own distribution channels (Love Records, MAH's(Magictones, Emanuel Laskey), A-Go-Go(Larry Wright(Popcorn Wylie Prod), Standout(Debutantes), a few Herman Griffin productions, even a few Armen Boladian funded productions. Through 1964, there were relatively few commercial recording studios, outside of mostly tiny, garage or basement operated studios in independent producers' homes (like D, Bristoe Bryant's basement studio (B-B, and Albert Leigh's Garage, Echoic Studio (garage in a house on Cameron(forgot owner's name-a small-time late '50s to early '60s producer -probably also a DJ. They recorded "I Love You" by The Volumes for Tony (Willie) Ewing's Chex label in 1962); and Popcorn Wylie's garage - He recorded for a few groups and artists - mostly demos to shop for a record deal. Many of Detroit's 1960s studios popped up between 1965 and 1967, AFTER Motown's smashing success and breakthrough into Pop Music. Before that, if you wanted to record R&B Music and early Soul music during the late '50s and early 1960s, there was United Sound; Fortune Records (yes, they recorded for outside producers-despite their terrible acoustics); JVB Recording (Joe Von Battle (JVB/Von Records); Northwest Recording, Special Recordings, from 1960-64 on Duffield St. and moved to Grand Blvd. in 1965 (owned by Fred Flowerday)-operated by a well-known engineer (forget which one he was)was one of Popcorn Wylie's favourite recording spotsfrom 1962-64. McCoy Recording (Big Mack Records-studio opened '63), Big Star Recording (Bobo Jenkins) studio-14th St.- opened 1959-record label in 1970s -few outside renters; Numbers operator, Wilbur (Wilbert)Golden's Correc-Tone Recording (opened 1962 on 12th St.-set up by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, later moved to Grand River. Correc-Tone record label bought out by Ed Wingate (Golden World) in late 1965, Recording Studio bought out by Ernest Burt(Magic City Recording Studio- and Magic City Records in late '65 Herman Griffin and several other indie producers used Correc-Tone; Continental Recording Co. Just down the street on 12th, operated 1962-63 by Cal Green(who later moved to L.A.) - a favourite studio for Popcorn Wylie's early (non Correc-Tone) indie productions' recordings(Majestics(Chex), Magnetics(AllRite) Priscilla Page(Rose). And Mike Hanks opened his Pig Pen (Bathroom Studio) in his home on McGraw, in early 1962, when he left Carmen Murphy's HOB Records to form D-Town Records(He'd already been operating his MAH's Records since 1960). In addition to Mike's labels, they also recorded for a few local indie labels. Another early '60s recording studio was Warren Quates' Jackpot Recording, on Ryan Road, opened in early 1962, to go along with his Jackpot Records. He recorded Clara Hardy, Melvin Davis, Thomas(Little Jr.) Cannaday & His Midnight Flyers, as well as Jimmie Hammond, to name a few. He also recorded demos for outside customers. Fred Brown's Mickay's Record Shop operated a record label and recording studio from 1963, with the help of his right-hand man, Joe Hunter, after already operating Kable Records since early 1961. They recorded for outside customers, including a few tiny indie record labels. The earliest new recording studios trying to jump on Motown's bandwagon in 1964 included Motown producer, Dave Hamilton's Temple Recording Co., used primarily for his own Temple Records, from his basement on Philadelphia St. He also recorded demos for outside customers. Also opened in early 1964 was Charles Stokes and Ron Holmes' Master Recording, who owned Master/Mas-Ter, Mas-Tok, Cha-Tok, and MAG Records, located on Joy Road. They also recorded for many of Detroit's out-of-home tiny Soul record labels. Their biggest sellers were by The 4 Hollidays/Holidays, Don Heart, and The Combinations. Other releases included The Tridettes, Chanels(female), Passionettes, DeWight (Spider/Spyder)Turner, Ster-Phonics/Stereophonics, The Channels(male), and Margaret Glover. Another 1964 entry was Ernie Stratton's Rainbow Recording Studio on Livernois St., who recorded for advertisers, broadcasters, and both local and national record labels. Of course, he recorded his own Ernstrat Productions', including Ernstrat Records' Patti Young's "Head and Shoulders", and DoDe Records' Judy & The Affections' "Dum, Dum, De Dip" and Royal Playboys' releases on DoDe. He also recorded joint projects with Harry Balk and Irv Michanic's EmBee Productions on The Dynamics' Big Top and Top Ten Records and Judi & Affections' Top Ten Records. He recorded some recordings for major national labels, as well. Milan Bogdan was his main sound engineer. In late 1966, Stratton sold out to Ralph Terrana and Al Sherman, who expanded the studio into the bank next door, and renamed it Tera-Shirma Studios. Tera-Shirma got a lot of work from independent producer, Mike Terry and other producers who had been using Golden World and didn't move over to Motown along with Golden World's studio and the few singers and producers whose contracts were bought by Motown, or were offered new contracts, which were accepted. In addition to Terry, Mike Valvano and his crew used Sidra and Tera-Shirma as their main recording studios. Harry Balk used Tera Shirma until he was hired by Motown. Now, independent producer, Joe Hunter, brought his Pied Piper and other Detroit indie projects to Tera Shirma. Even Ollie McLaughlin brought a lot of his projects to Tera Shirma. In 1971 Terrana and Sherman sold out to George Lemons, who changed the studio's name to Gold Soul Studios, for his Gold Soul Productions and record label. He also rented time to small indie producers, including Ron Murphy's Ron's Records, and Soul King labels.

As far as I know, the only Pac-3 studio was located in Dearborn. But that's a western suburb of Detroit, so, I guess that's why it was listed with the Detroit studios. Maybe they also had a Detroit P.O. Box, to benefit from having a Detroit Address, to get on listings of Detroit recording studios.

Even without having Groovesville Productions credit printed on the record, the link to Detroit still could have been Don Davis. But, Davis had bought United Sound in 1971, and THAT was his primary recording studio for his entire producing career, anyway. So I doubt that Davis was heavily involved in that Hot Sauce production. But, maybe Hot Sauce's producers wanted to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound" regardless of Davis' non-availability for whatever reasons (maybe Davis and his United Sound were solidly booked up, and so they checked out other Detroit studios, or were referred to PAC 3 by Davis, or someone else). 1972 was BEFORE Davis' falling out with Stax. So, Davis COULD potentially have been involved in some way.

Velgo recorded at Sidra and Ernstrat/Terra Shirma, a lot of Don Davis' Thelma productions were recorded at United Sound. Mike Hanks' D-Town and MAH's recorded in his own Pig Pen, but he DID record a few of his latest recordings at Golden World, and even had Golden World distribute them. Most of Don Davis' Groovesville, Groove City, and his and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound/Revilot labels recorded mainly at United Sound (Including The O'Jays). Drew recorded at Sidra, Carla and a lot of Ollie McLaughlin's labels productions were recorded in Chicago, but some recorded in Detroit before 1965 were recorded at Motown's Snakepit, and later at Golden World ("Cool Jerk" being one). Impact and Inferno recorded at Golden World, Kool Kat recorded at Golden World. Mike Terry recorded most of his projects at Golden World, some at Sidra. Popcorn Wylie at several different studios, including United Sound, Golden World, Sidra and Terra Shirma. A lot of Detroit Soul productions were recorded at United Sound Systems, by both small and large labels. There were several other smaller studios around the city: Correc-Tone/Magic City, Pioneer Recording, Artie Fields Productions, Bumpshop/GM Recording, Master Recording, Mickay's Recording, Northwest Sound, Fortune Records, Diamond Recording, Detroit Sound, Continental Recording, Carrie/LaBeat Recording, Sound, Inc., Tri-Sound Recording, JVB Recording, Special Recordings, Sound Patterns, McCoy Recording Co., Jackpot Recording Co., Rainbow/Ernstrat Recording, Temple/TCB Recording, Blue Star Recording, Viney Recording Studio, Northwest Sound, Gold Soul Studios, Dotty's Recording Co., Golden Hit Productions, Tower Recording. Many of these recording studios were owned by record producers, as you know from their Northern Soul records on labels of the same name.

Must be a Lowrider.

Thanks. I understand the context now, and what Mal meant.

Clearly, you used that as a symbolic idiomatic phrase. You explain it as "making a loud noise" (sort of like "He dropped a bombshell! ) So, which post contained the "mic drop" to which you refer?

What's a "Mic Drop"? I've never been a "Hep Cat", in The In Crowd. 🤔

I bought 2 mint copies (One for my friend) of "Love's Gonna Do You in" in 1968, for 10 cents each, from Joker's owner. I bought $50 worth of 10 cent mint records that day.

Yes, I found all 3 of the Stephanye 45s in The Chicago Area. They got national distribution through Wingate's distribution channels. As I stated before, I've read in several places that Stephanye was not only distributed by Golden World, but was a partnership, half-owned subsidiary of Golden World. I think that the reason they had only the 3 releases was because of the early falling out between Wingate and Gene Redd. I think Maltese Records only got regional distribution in The Northeast, and probably also in Detroit/Southeastern Michigan and Toledo/Northwest Ohio.

Thanks Yank, So it appears that George Kerr met Biegel while both were at Motown in Detroit, and when Barnes and Kerr decided to leave Motown, and Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, and approached Wingate (probably with the help of Biegel (who also left Motown), Kerr needed an outlet for his talents. So, maybe he asked Biegel to find a financier to back a new record company that Kerr could run the day-to-day record producing operations. So, Biegel found a New York financier, so that the new label could have operations both in New York and Detroit (so Kerr could still spend time where his family and friends were, and still produce in Detroit as well, to take advantage of "The Motown Sound"). Biegel probably found Granoff through his connections with New York Area national distributors. My bguess is that Kerr kept his house in New Jersey, and just rented a small apartment in Detroit, because he had no guarantees that he'd be with Motown a long time. As was born out when he found out that Gordy wanted him as a songwriter, but didn't want to pay him to be a producer. Clinton was in that same situation. Biegel had a similar situation with Motown, having to face a ceiling, blocking him from moving higher up. So he left to get a more powerful job and more money with Wingate, and also had a chance to not only handle the business end of a new record label, but also participate in its profits as a junior partner. The interesting thing is that he could do that benefitting from using Motown's musicians, and what he had learned from the inside, about the way of operating that brought success to Gordy's operation (so he thought). But, his tenure with Wingate wasn't very long, and Maltese Records had very little success, if any. I don't remember seeing that ANY of their releases charted, even on the R&B charts. I don't recall seeing any Maltese records on The West Coast. I don't think I saw any in Chicago record shops. I think I found most of mine in Detroit bargain bins and thrift shops. Maybe some made the Woolworth sales (even in Chicago). Yank. Do you remember seeing any Maltese records in Chicagoland?

So, was Biegel still headquartered in New York, and travelled nationally? Or did he move to Detroit? Or was he born and raised in Detroit, and working in Detroit before Barney hired him? If it was the latter case, then Biegel must have known about Clinton, Barnes, and George Kerr leaving Motown and going to Wingate, and decided there was an opportunity for him with Wingate, and either HE, or Kerr (more likely Kerr) got Granoff involved to form a new label (for Kerr to run a record label as an outlet to use his songwriting and record production skills to continue earning a living), as his former partner, Barnes had decided to team up with Clinton.

I like Les McCann's original version best. It was a big hit on KGFJ and KDIA, and they only played the very best fast and mid-tempo Jazz instrumentals. They stayed away from slow, bluesy instrumentals. Eddie Harris' version was played and charted nicely, too. I think WVON and WBEE played them in Chicago, too. I was really big on Blue Note and Atlantic Jazz at that time, as well as Afro-Latin Jazz. Luckily, very few of the Soul collectors were competition for me -especially for the 45s. Getting mint Jazz LPs for discount rates , or mint DJ LPs at thrift stores or in bargain bins was much tougher. Funny thing, I'm the only one I ever knew who generally liked the shorter marketing 45s' 3 minute versions of Jazz LP title and featured songs, than the 5 to 10 minute album versions. The compact 45 versions were much more structured and thus, to me, tighter. The much longer LP versions rambled all over the place, and often had enough time to have a slot for a long solo for each major instrument with a lot of improvisational wandering away from the general track of the song. (which many, many, if not most Jazz fans like). And I do appreciate them; but I like the tighter, structured tunes much more. After all, who wants to listen to 9 straight minutes of only drums, while waiting, hopelessly, for the music to come back?????!!! 😝

Thanks for uploading this article, BlackpoolSoul. Now I know what all readers of Sidney Barnes' book knew, - that Maltese Records was totally owned by Bud Granoff and Irv Biegel, without ownership participation by Ed Wingate or Golden World. So, Biegel, working part time in Detroit, had his A&R man, and chief producer, George Kerr, record background tracks at Golden World Recording Studio, had them produce his masters, and ordered pressing of Maltese's commercial issues at Columbia Midwest (Terre Haute, Indiana), ostensibly through Golden World's account there. Of course, Biegel used Maltese's own funds to pay for that, and Granoff probably kept the masters when Maltese shut down. What I also didn't know before this revelation, was that George Kerr worked on his Maltese productions in Detroit, including writing some songs, and recording some vocal and some music tracks there. I had known that several (if not most of their music tracks) had been recorded in Detroit, but I thought they had been produced by Wingate's producers using Motown musicians and arrangers. I didn't know that Kerr had stayed in Detroit after leaving Motown, and migrated from Motown to Wingate's operations along with George Clinton and his crew, Sidney Barnes, Gene Redd, Jr., and, it seems, Irv Biegel. I had thought Kerr had returned to New York (where he had never left, but bounced between the 2 cities), and just produced songwriting, demos, and vocal recording on their NY artists there, using Richard T. and his band, who stayed in New York, not being brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy in late 1964, after the closing down of Jobete Music, NewYork, as George Clinton, and Kerr and Barnes were. Now I know that George Kerr worked in Detroit for Maltese, as "Mr. Lucky", and although Irv Biegel acted as a business manager for Golden World/Ric-Tic, while also running Maltese, in a similar manner, using Wingate's operational channels and connections, Maltese was NOT a subsidiary of Wingate's Golden World. But, clearly, it was related enough to consider it a member of Golden World's "family of labels. However, this doesn't effect my belief that Gene Redd Jr.'s Stephanye Records was a partly-owned subsidiary of Golden World, (as I have read that in a few places) Unfortunately, I can't remember the sources for that. However, I'm sure that Redd kept the masters for their 3 releases. I'd like to know where Irv Biegel was stationed when working for Motown, and exactly what he was doing. My guess was that he was hired, originally, by Miss Ray, to manage the business end of Jobete Music, New York office, and operated solely out of New York. The article about him made it sound like he had been working for Motown in Detroit after Jobete NY was shut down. I'd be shocked to find out that that had happened. I'd have guessed he'd not have been kept on, and brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy, after the latter shut down the New York operations, like he brought George Clinton and The Parliaments, and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes. I assume that Bud Granoff hired and partnered up with Biegel to operate his new (Maltese) record company, taking advantage of the newly-available talent that had operated Motown's New York operation. And When Clinton, Kerr and Barnes decided to leave Motown in Detroit, they were either approached by Wingate, or went to see about hooking up with his rising Detroit label, which was starting to rival Motown. Upon reaching production agreements with Wingate, they decided to try to bring in their Motown New York colleague, Gene Redd, Jr., and Kerr, now alone, after Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, convinced Biegel to get his partner Granoff to make him Chief producer and A&R man of their new label, and to team up with Wingate, to continue to take advantage of the burgeoning popularity of The "Detroit Sound", using Detroit's musicians and arrangers and songwriters (most of whom had recently worked (or still were working) for Motown Records.

I was aware of this article. It adds nothing to my guess that Maltese Records was either a partially-owned subsidiary company of Golden World, or an independently-owned label, which had so many production and operational ties to Golden World that it could be defined as a member of The Golden World family of labels. Whether or not it would be found to have been partly owned by Ed Wingate and JoAnne Bratton, or Golden World Records, along with New York-based owners, Granoff and Biegel. I do know that much of its operations were handled by Golden World staff, and the label had a production/mastering/pressing/marketing/and distribution deal with Golden World, handled through their normal channels. probably ALL of their background music tracks were recorded by Golden World producers in Golden World Studio, and only some vocal tracks of their East Coast artists were made in New York.

So, as Roburt stated, The 4 + 1 were from Pittsburgh, and made local appearances there.

I don't remember "The Ankara" nightclub in Detroit. Was it in Pittsburgh? There was a New York group who recorded for Madison records during the late 1950s through the very early 60s. Could Dickie and The Ebb Tides hsave morphed out of them?

Gene Redd would have had to pay The Fantastic Four for their back-up work, and the musicians for the session, so, unless he made a deal with Wingate for renting the studio for that time, making them partners in the session, he'd have entered the session in the books as "His" as a rental, and paid for the studio time (or just paid the session workers) and kept Wingate from knowing about it. But the latter would have risked his relationship with Wingate, who would surely dislike being "stabbed in the back", taking a subordinate partner in, who is using his facilities for just his own profit, and not giving him the option to participate in it. My guess is that Redd wouldn't have wanted to risk his good situation with Wingate, and so told Wingate about the session, played the tapes for him, and asked him whether or not he'd want to participate in the project and the group. As it went nowhere, my guess is that Wingate decided that he had enough artists to handle, and he'd stay out of this one. Redd would simply pay for the sessions (the regular studio rental fee) and deal with that group on his own, back in New York. I'd bet that Wingate got a little peeved that Redd went ahead with the recording session, without consulting him first, and setting up a "tryout" session that HE would also attend. I'd bet that that incident, plus his sitting on the phone discussing his own private deals on long distance phone calls to The East Coast(Long Distance calls out-of-state cost LOTS of money back in those days), was a good part of the reason Ed ended their partnership, in addition to his being pissed about Redd making a play for JoAnne. The master tapes would have stayed in Redd's hands. So we'd have to do research into what happened to his personal master tapes. Did anyone contact him, or his children, back in the '80s and '90s when The NS DJs and regular US trip-making NS record dealers and scroungers were looking up the 1960s producers? Is he still with us? If not, I wonder if someone contacted his kids.

I don't understand your point, as the only photo that shows up is a scan of her early to mid '60s Gold Record. There is no photo of a Human. From the sound of her voice, which doesn't project very well (e.g. more from mouth than diaphragm, i'd guess that it isn't a "trained" voice. And I'd also guess she might have been somewhere between 15 and maybe 22 or 23 years old (also helped by the girls' groupish-sounding background chorus behind her. I doubt very much that she was a jazz singer.