how do you define R&B ? tricky ,but i would put Big Boss Man at the top of the list as sung by Eric Burdon in his early days to get the house shaking .

next i would mention Respectable as sung by the Yardbirds to get the floor rocking 

and then Shop Around by Georgie Fame and the Blue Flames sung live ..

 

you could venture over into Elmore James , dust my broom and Cyril davies  CountryLine Special  for a kicker 

 

losing again-ray agee

 

 

Some strange definitions of R&B here, this has been known as an out and out Northern Soul classic for over 30 years and now it's classed as R&B?  Mar-Vels was Northern Soul as far back as 1973 and Jimmy Frazer is also 100% Northern Soul, albeit with a blues harmonica...

Some strange definitions of R&B here, this has been known as an out and out Northern Soul classic for over 30 years and now it's classed as R&B?  Mar-Vels was Northern Soul as far back as 1973 and Jimmy Frazer is also 100% Northern Soul, albeit with a blues harmonica...

Pete

I agree,a lot of people say I collect R n B but I think a lot of the stuff I've got is early soul?It's a fine line & I don't know the exact definition of R n B & I think others are in the same boat so the lines get blurred?I must admit I wouldn't class Jimmy Frazer but like I say who knows??

Cheers

Martyn

Some strange definitions of R&B here, this has been known as an out and out Northern Soul classic for over 30 years and now it's classed as R&B?  Mar-Vels was Northern Soul as far back as 1973 and Jimmy Frazer is also 100% Northern Soul, albeit with a blues harmonica...

ive heard djs and seen posts where losing again is called rnb..and although its been on the northern scene for years i think has that rnb feel..its uptempo but hasnt got the classic northern 4 beats on the snare and that guitar riff is blues!...there are plenty IMO that crossover from rnb to soul..normally mid 60s..but it comes to that old chestnut again what is northern soul?

ive heard djs and seen posts where losing again is called rnb..and although its been on the northern scene for years i think has that rnb feel..its uptempo but hasnt got the classic northern 4 beats on the snare and that guitar riff is blues!...there are plenty IMO that crossover from rnb to soul..normally mid 60s..but it comes to that old chestnut again what is northern soul?

If its Ray Agee - I'm losing again ,personally I wouldn't Call it R&B

 

Bazza 

seems im out voted then..majority rule..its northern

I'm sure Ray Agee, that well known Rhythm and Blues artist, walked in to the studio and announced....

 

"Hey Guys, let's make a different kind of record this session, I've heard that this thing called 'Northern Soul' is going to become massive in Mill towns in the North of England, let's give that a try, eh?"

 

 

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he recorded a R&B record, that happened to fit the template of Northern Soul,

 

 

I know where my money lies.

I'm sure Ray Agee, that well known Rhythm and Blues artist, walked in to the studio and announced....

 

"Hey Guys, let's make a different kind of record this session, I've heard that this thing called 'Northern Soul' is going to become massive in Mill towns in the North of England, let's give that a try, eh?"

 

 

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he recorded a R&B record, that happened to fit the template of Northern Soul,

 

 

I know where my money lies.

 

 

Good job you don't bet much then.

Take the name Ray Agee off the label, play it to anyone who's ever heard Northern Soul, ask them what genre of music it is, oh f*ck me sideways, it's Northern Soul!

Edited April 16, 201312 yr by Pete S

Good job you don't bet much then.

Take the name Ray Agee off the label, play it to anyone who's ever heard Northern Soul, ask them what genre of music it is, oh f*ck me sideways, it's Northern Soul!

 

 

Sorry it took a while to respond, I've been on to Derek Acorah, who contacted Ray for us, and Ray said "Northern Soul? Never heard of it."

 

Case closed.

Sorry it took a while to respond, I've been on to Derek Acorah, who contacted Ray for us, and Ray said "Northern Soul? Never heard of it."

 

Case closed.

 

Right so any accepted "Northern Soul" record by an R & B artist is no longer "Northern Soul" under your new rules, I'll go tell Ray Charles that "I Don't No Doctor" is off the NS  playlist then...and then do the other 5000 records

Right so any accepted "Northern Soul" record by an R & B artist is no longer "Northern Soul" under your new rules, I'll go tell Ray Charles that "I Don't No Doctor" is off the NS  playlist then...and then do the other 5000 records

 

 

Not at all, the point i was trying to (humorously, although at too high an altitude for you) make, was that just because it is considered a Northern Soul record (which it is) that doesn't stop it being an R&B record - it isn't as black and white as that.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't know how you define these tracks as Northern??

 

Who, me?  I don't, I've never mentioned them.  What are you talking about?

Not at all, the point i was trying to (humorously, although at too high an altitude for you) make, was that just because it is considered a Northern Soul record (which it is) that doesn't stop it being an R&B record - it isn't as black and white as that.

 

In this case it is though!

tommy rot.

 

It's an R&B record that was played on the Northern Soul scene.

 

Just like The Outsiders Time Won't Let Me is a Garage record that was played.

Right so any accepted "Northern Soul" record by an R & B artist is no longer "Northern Soul" under your new rules, I'll go tell Ray Charles that "I Don't No Doctor" is off the NS  playlist then...and then do the other 5000 records

You got a Hotline to Soul Heaven then Pete?

Who, me?  I don't, I've never mentioned them.  What are you talking about?

 

You really are an angry angry Soul. I never said you mentioned them. You said Ray Agee was Northern. I have attached 2 Ray Agee tunes which in my opinion do not come under the genre of Northern Soul.

You really are an angry angry Soul. I never said you mentioned them. You said Ray Agee was Northern. I have attached 2 Ray Agee tunes which in my opinion do not come under the genre of Northern Soul.

 

No I didn't, I said the song I'm Losing Again by Ray Agee on the Soul Town label was out and out Northern, I never mentioned him or any of his other records.

No I didn't, I said the song I'm Losing Again by Ray Agee on the Soul Town label was out and out Northern, I never mentioned him or any of his other records.

 

Ray Agee is an RnB artist. And you did mention him.

Ray Agee is an RnB artist. And you did mention him.

 

He is an R&B artist.  His Soul Town record is a Northern Soul classic.  It doesn't suddenly, after 35 years of being played, make it now an R&B record just because someone has changed the terminology.

Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree about Ray Agee being R&B (although I'd like to hear your definition of R&B on another thread maybe)...

 

 

 

Well I'm going to stick an R&B list up in an hour or so, so then you can have a laugh.

Sorry it took a while to respond, I've been on to Derek Acorah, who contacted Ray for us, and Ray said "Northern Soul? Never heard of it."

 

Case closed.

 

Joe, you should have consulted a medium, not a comedian! 

 

_{Mickey Champion - What good am i. - Musette}

 

 

This also falls under my "this used to be Northern but now it's R & B?" banner 

This also falls under my "this used to be Northern but now it's R & B?" banner 

 

 

I knew you would'nt be able to resist.

This also falls under my "this used to be Northern but now it's R & B?" banner 

Was it recorded for the northern soul scene??? No I reckon it was recorded to maybe peak in the Rnb chart of the day.

Jimmy Frasier didn't wake up one day in 65 and say I'm going to record a northern soul track!!!!! In fact the US government wanted this released and to chart in the Rnb charts.

Some strange Ideas in this thread 

 

Bazza  

Was it recorded for the northern soul scene??? No I reckon it was recorded to maybe peak in the Rnb chart of the day.

Jimmy Frasier didn't wake up one day in 65 and say I'm going to record a northern soul track!!!!! In fact the US government wanted this released and to chart in the Rnb charts.

 

Wooosh straight over your head as well...

Was it recorded for the northern soul scene??? No I reckon it was recorded to maybe peak in the Rnb chart of the day.

Jimmy Frasier didn't wake up one day in 65 and say I'm going to record a northern soul track!!!!! In fact the US government wanted this released and to chart in the Rnb charts.

 

Has anyone ever woke up one morning and said "I'm going to record a Northern Soul track"?

Yet there are thousands of Northern Soul tracks.

Or are they no longer Northern Soul tracks, they are in fact "R & B" tracks and for the last 45 years we haven't had a clue what we've been listening to?  We called it by the wrong name, this cult that played special music that was different to everything else...all the time it was simply

R & B

Edited April 16, 201312 yr by Pete S

Look on the back of a lot of UK Tamla Motown LPs, and at the top right hand corner it says File Under: Rhythm & Blues   

Some strange Ideas in this thread 

 

Bazza  

Bazza, we are all entitled to em  lol ...my point is what genre then for Jimmy Frasier from year of release to the inception of northern soul ??

Look on the back of a lot of UK Tamla Motown LPs, and at the top right hand corner it says File Under: Rhythm & Blues   

 

So what?

Has anyone ever woke up one morning and said "I'm going to record a Northern Soul track"?

Yet there are thousands of Northern Soul tracks.

Or are they no longer Northern Soul tracks, they are in fact "R & B" tracks and for the last 45 years we haven't had a clue what we've been listening to?  We called it by the wrong name, this cult that played special music that was different to everything else...all the time it was simply

R & B

Wigans rejected few, Four vandals lol sorry ,just had too 

 

Bazza 

So Rhythm and Blues is a lot broader than you appear to think it is....  

Has anyone ever woke up one morning and said "I'm going to record a Northern Soul track"?

Yet there are thousands of Northern Soul tracks.

Or are they no longer Northern Soul tracks, they are in fact "R & B" tracks and for the last 45 years we haven't had a clue what we've been listening to?  We called it by the wrong name, this cult that played special music that was different to everything else...all the time it was simply

R & B

 

Don't recall anyone here saying all Northern is R&B at all.........................Northern is a mix of a lot of things, some of it is R&B..................simples!!  

So Rhythm and Blues is a lot broader than you appear to think it is....  

 

WTF's the matter with you today, I'm talking about ONE RECORD by Ray Agee called I'M LOSING AGAIN and I'm saying that it's a NORTHERN SOUL record of the highest order, of course it's R & B, all black artist records like this are R & B, but here, in the UK, you know, the place that basically has had a Northern Soul scene since the mid 60's, it's classed as NORTHERN SOUL first and foremost.  And R & B as a genre of music in the proper sense covers millions of tracks, I'm not talking about R & B in the last 15 years definition of it as a sub-genre of Northern Soul.

Don't recall anyone here saying all Northern is R&B at all.........................Northern is a mix of a lot of things, some of it is R&B..................simples!!  

 

The bloody topic is about people's R & B top 3's, where do they play these, Reggae nights?  Jazz festivals?  Folk concerts?  Oh thats right, Northern Soul nights...

 

f*ck this I'm off to pick my kid up from school 

 

Pete S, on 16th Apr 2013  about 3 hours earlier said:

 

Some strange definitions of R&B here, this has been known as an out and out Northern Soul classic for over 30 years and now it's classed as R&B?  Mar-Vels was Northern Soul as far back as 1973 and Jimmy Frazer is also 100% Northern Soul, albeit with a blues harmonica...

 

 

WTF's the matter with you today, I'm talking about ONE RECORD by Ray Agee called I'M LOSING AGAIN and I'm saying that it's a NORTHERN SOUL record of the highest order, of course it's R & B, all black artist records like this are R & B, but here, in the UK, you know, the place that basically has had a Northern Soul scene since the mid 60's, it's classed as NORTHERN SOUL first and foremost.  And R & B as a genre of music in the proper sense covers millions of tracks, I'm not talking about R & B in the last 15 years definition of it as a sub-genre of Northern Soul.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Consistency is usually your strong point Pete, i'm a bit disappointed that you've now agreed that Ray Agee is an R&B record, you've spoiled all my afternoons fun.

 

 

Pete S, on 16th Apr 2013  about 3 hours earlier said:

 

Some strange definitions of R&B here, this has been known as an out and out Northern Soul classic for over 30 years and now it's classed as R&B?  Mar-Vels was Northern Soul as far back as 1973 and Jimmy Frazer is also 100% Northern Soul, albeit with a blues harmonica...

 

 

 

No, they are all Rhythm & Blues records.  After that, they can be deep soul, northern soul, afro soul,funk and so on.  But how many branches of Northern Soul are there?  Not many.  R & B in the context of this topic is an offshoot of Northern Soul.

The record in question, I would be happy playing it in a northern room but definitely not in an R&B room  ,so there 

 

Bazza 

OK, as an off-shoot of Northern Soul, the Ray Agee does get played in R&B clubs (Mace, Callum, Johnny Pezella have all played it in R&B spots in R&B clubs)

 

So using your argument that if it's played in a Northern Soul venue, it is Northern Soul, then surely, if it's played in an R&B venue it's R&B?

OK, as an off-shoot of Northern Soul, the Ray Agee does get played in R&B clubs (Mace, Callum, Johnny Pezella have all played it in R&B spots in R&B clubs)

 

So using your argument that if it's played in a Northern Soul venue, it is Northern Soul, then surely, if it's played in an R&B venue it's R&B?

 

Wibble.

To be honest Pete, you could have typed just Wibble in every response and you'd have come across just the same....

To be honest Pete, you could have typed just Wibble in every response and you'd have come across just the same....

 

Just go back to doing whatever it is you do when you're not being an arse...

Just go back to doing whatever it is you do when you're not being an arse...

 

 

I've had my full eight hours kip, so that'll have to wait.

As a matter of fact, I think its tripe and wouldn't play it any where 

 

Bazza 

No, they are all Rhythm & Blues records.  After that, they can be deep soul, northern soul, afro soul,funk and so on.  But how many branches of Northern Soul are there?  Not many.  R & B in the context of this topic is an offshoot of Northern Soul.

 

 

 

It doesn't state in a Northern Soul venue in the original post, so is it really in that context?

 

There is life outside of the Northern Soul scene.

It doesn't state in a Northern Soul venue in the original post, so is it really in that context?

 

There is life outside of the Northern Soul scene.

 

I can't take anymore 

I can't take anymore 

 

 

That's got to be more like gospel than RnB surely.....

I can't take anymore 

 

Hello Pete, I dont remember if we have ever met and your answers can be a bit ABRUPT but i like your answers and envy your knowledge of the various sub-scenes and soul music in general, Along with you i wish people wouldent detract from the thread to much and start a thread of thier own,

Northern soul is a opinion not a definative.

 

Best regards,

Garry

Hello Pete, I dont remember if we have ever met and your answers can be a bit ABRUPT 

 

What do you mean by that??

 

 

 

   

 

(only joking!)

Edited April 16, 201312 yr by Pete S

back in the 60s Pye International fliers used to catagorise R&B as Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry and so on , but over the years its changed its definition .go in a record shop now and R&B racks have a totally different genre of singer and type of music which caters to a larger audience .

so you cant really put a definitive genre to the name IMO ...

Poor mans rock and roll