What is Crossover soul? How do you define crossover? Is it simply a date (late 60s early 70s)

I believed Crossover soul is when unknown singers tried to apeal to larger audiences i.e. (mainstream white America) by losing that Gritty hardcore traditional rare soul sound.

I am truly confused and would appreciate any advice.( without causing any arguments)

Cheers

Vespadan

Good question vespadan. I've heard it said that Channel 3 - 'She's the sweetest girl I've ever, seen on this side of heaven' (title from memory) was one of the first cross over tunes. Look it up, it's a great record. Try Magic Night - 'If you & I had never met' as well, even better song IMO. Somebody's bound to put me right if I'm wrong. Regards Ade

What is Crossover soul? How do you define crossover? Is it simply a date (late 60s early 70s)

I believed Crossover soul is when unknown singers tried to apeal to larger audiences i.e. (mainstream white America) by losing that Gritty hardcore traditional rare soul sound.

I am truly confused and would appreciate any advice.( without causing any arguments)

Cheers

Vespadan

Always an interesting subject and one that has been discussed at great length on here before - i'm sure a quick search would pull it up.

Not sure if those 'unknown singers' knew they had a 'gritty hardcore traditional rare soul sound' to lose tho' ^_^ . I put it down to natural progression of the music, producers & new technology.

Girf

Edited January 31, 200718 yr by Girthdevon

Good question vespadan. I've heard it said that Channel 3 - 'She's the sweetest girl I've ever, seen on this side of heaven' (title from memory) was one of the first cross over tunes. Look it up, it's a great record. Try Magic Night - 'If you & I had never met' as well, even better song IMO. Somebody's bound to put me right if I'm wrong. Regards Ade

Would agree with Channel 3 - def an early crossover spin - altho Magic Night i've always thought of as 70s northern. Lacking that crossover feel.....

Girf

I'm no expert,but I think the soul music that american audiences were listening to in the late 60's ,early 70's was more funkier and softer than the soul sounds that became known as northern soul.Later on soul fans in Britain began to pick up on these tracks ,which became known as crossover, and then modern soul. Magoo.

Have a look & listen on this previous thread. Should confuse you even more

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=37337

Girf

Been asked many a time before. One of those questions you will never get a definitive answer for, and all personal opinion.

My understanding came from a tape a guy did round mine about ten years ago, with the intention of being one of Manship's tapes. Do they still exist?

Initially I wasn't too keen on many of the tunes, but they did then hit me after a few listens & I pretty much love all of the tape now, and over time have managed to get all but the most expensive ones.

An example of the tracks :-

Purple Mundi - Stop hurting me baby (trying to conact the guy to try & get this out of him, as I am sure he is not into music too much these days, family & stuff)

William Howard - come to me

Masters of Soul - Do you really love me

Wales Wallace - We're not happy

Milton Parker - Women like it harder

Reggie Soul - My world of ecstasy

Black & Blue - what I got

Jimmie Ellis - Happy to be

The Stimulation - Can you dig where i'm coming from

Geraldine Hunt - Never, Never leave me

Jackie wilson - Just call my name

Godoy Colbert - I wanna thank you

Freddie Scott - Girl, I love you

plus many others.

Basically my initial education, & described to me at the time as generally made between '68 to ' 72 when production was getting more sophisticated (presumably also as more tracks being available due to the ability to multi track in studios).

I particularly liked the heaviness in a mellow sort of way of certain tracks like Godoy Colbert & Freddie Scott (fantastic track).

Hope this helps, but probably not.

Mike

Different from just about everyone you speak to. But here's my go. Music recorded in the early 70's before disco that still has that 60's approach to recording and sound and feel.

In this case, I would say when the music crossed over from the church's to the dance clubs of the time.

Alot of acts when on the Gospel Highway would then go and sing in the Chicken Shack Hops of an evening.

All music genres have a form of crossover.

I.E when it cross's to the main stream following.

But with regard the current use of the term - I would say it describes the midpaced late 60s / 70s soul.

I do hate all these banners though.

The discription for me should be

Era

What area it stemmed form I.E Philly/Detroit/Southern

Tempo

Simple as that.

Edited January 31, 200718 yr by Gavin Page

What is Crossover soul? How do you define crossover? Is it simply a date (late 60s early 70s)

I believed Crossover soul is when unknown singers tried to apeal to larger audiences i.e. (mainstream white America) by losing that Gritty hardcore traditional rare soul sound.

I am truly confused and would appreciate any advice.( without causing any arguments)

Cheers

Vespadan

I may be asking for trouble attempting to answer this one, but bear with me!

Unlike "Crossover" as referred to in Jazz (ie. George Benson "crossing over" to first the Jazz-Fusion, then to the pop mainstream) I've always taken the term "crossover" on the rare Soul scene to simply mean those records that appeal to both Northern (60s) traditionalists, as well as "Modern" Soul fans - Keni Smith - "Lord What's Happening..." and Judy Freeman & Blackrock's - "Hold On" (1971) etc. Mel Britt is a prime example in my view, and I would personally regard it as the ultimate crossover record by this definition, being almost universally popular. Nowadays, records from the late 60s/early 70s (mainly) that were previously ignored or unplayed on the scene (Towana & The Total Destruction - "Wear Your Natural Baby" et.al.) - due to the fact they didn't suit the preferred dancefloor rhythms in the UK at the time - have more recently found an audience within this genre, and discs that would have formerly been regarded as "beat-ballads" or "too slow to dance to" are also sometimes so described.

Edited January 31, 200718 yr by mel brat

What is Crossover soul? How do you define crossover? Is it simply a date (late 60s early 70s)

I believed Crossover soul is when unknown singers tried to apeal to larger audiences i.e. (mainstream white America) by losing that Gritty hardcore traditional rare soul sound.

I am truly confused and would appreciate any advice.( without causing any arguments)

Cheers

Vespadan

Its like all terms that are used to define a genre or style of music, its open to interpretation. Like RnB can be used to describe all types of music, modern and 6ts, it all depends on your interpretation really, dosen't it?

Used in the context of the Northern Soul scene, my interpretation of the word "crossover" would initially be records that were released / crossed over from the late 6ts (as production and style was changing) into the 7ts and found favour at traditional 6ts Soul venues?

Tunes like The Sunlovers - my poor heart......the Skull Snaps.......Don Thomas...Carstairs........Soul Inc.......Mel Britt, ....etc....... tunes that have tons of soul and were not typical of the general commercial releases from the late 6ts or early 7ts ?

Obviously as time has passed Soul fans have dug up everything, many tastes are right up to the present day! (and even deeper into the 6Ts with Ballads, RnB, Latin, and Jamaican Sounds etc...etc) So this just makes the term nowdays even more open to interpretation and even less defining!

In my oppinion!

Thanks to everybody who left comments. I totally appreciate all feed back left.

This helps me with a greater understanding of soul music, it also reinforces my commitment to find great singers/musicians, and regardless of what year they were discovered.!!!

Vespadan

Keep the Faith!!!!!!!!

I may be asking for trouble attempting to answer this one, but bear with me!

Unlike "Crossover" as referred to in Jazz (ie. George Benson "crossing over" to first the Jazz-Fusion, then to the pop mainstream) I've always taken the term "crossover" on the rare Soul scene to simply mean those records that appeal to both Northern (60s) traditionalists, as well as "Modern" Soul fans - Keni Smith - "Lord What's Happening..." and Judy Freeman & Blackrock's - "Hold On" (1971) etc. Mel Britt is a prime example in my view, and I would personally regard it as the ultimate crossover record by this definition, being almost universally popular. Nowadays, records from the late 60s/early 70s (mainly) that were previously ignored or unplayed on the scene (Towana & The Total Destruction - "Wear Your Natural Baby" et.al.) - due to the fact they didn't suit the preferred dancefloor rhythms in the UK at the time - have more recently found an audience within this genre, and discs that would have formerly been regarded as "beat-ballads" or "too slow to dance to" are also sometimes so described.

That'll do for me. Exactly what I understood the term to mean. Had no idea people associated it with the source of the music. I always associated it with the "UK scene" rather than a timeline or era of origin.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

That'll do for me. Exactly what I understood the term to mean. Had no idea people associated it with the source of the music. I always associated it with the "UK scene" rather than a timeline or era of origin.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Yeah.................."crossover" could be interpreted to be tunes that 6ts and 7ts / modern soul fans all love together............tunes that are played in both rooms if you like..............but in that case................name me some early 6ts crossover tunes

Edited February 1, 200718 yr by mossy

Here's the definitive defdinition or explanation - copied from my previous post a few months ago!

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, we have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

Here's the definitive defdinition or explanation - copied from my previous post a few months ago!

Sean Hampsey

Nice one Sean - one i completely agree with too! Apart from (imho) maybe the fact Richard Searling should be creditted along with Rod Dearlove for pioneering the genre at the same time on opposite sides of the pennines

Here's a potted version from me, that i did for a mag a while ago, prompted as you can see from an earlier Soul Source thread.................

Staying on the theme of reviewing danceable 70's US 45's, I thought I'd concentrate on pure CROSSOVER tunes this issue.

Prompted by a recent discussion on the Soul-Source web site forum of what Crossover Soul actually is, here are 5 sides that I personally consider to be in that genre i.e. that wonderful period between 1968 to 1972 when 60's Soul was evolving into smoother 70's Soul. 60's Soul blended with sophisticated 70's production techniques, making for thousands of unique Soul recordings that are now played and collected across the whole of the Rare Soul Scene. I don't want to dwell on what is or what isn't Crossover, suffice to say that the term came about in the late 80's when venues like Thorne (Rod Dearlove) & Parkers (Richard Searling) were pioneering this strange new sound that had emanated from the traditional 70's Modern Rooms & Weekenders and the classier end of the Northern scene. Today the term tends to relate to anything from the 70's but I'm not going to get hung up over that I just wanted to point out the actual origins of the genre itself!

So you can add that into the mix aswell..........until we discuss it again in a few months

Cheers

Steve

Here's the definitive defdinition or explanation - copied from my previous post a few months ago!

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not...

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms."

Brave try but your definitive explanation is largely telling us what it isn't rather than what it is. Obviously I appreciate how difficult it is to define anything, let alone music. Nice try though.

So how about marks out of 10 then?

I suppose my complete explanation should really have been read in the context of the previous thread that I copied it from... otherwise I appreciate that the piece, overall, is more 'tentative' than 'definitive'.

The 'it's not this, that or the other' aspects were to answer other posters 'definitions' that I was merely rebutting, refuting or invalidating... depending on how pedantic one might wish to be.

So what is "Crossover Soul" then?

My absolute (plain and simple) definition would be as I wrote in the first sentence i.e. "those (soul) records produced in the late 60's and early 70's" since the term actually refers to a period of time in history rather than tempo or production values which were prevalent at the time.

Hope that's cleared that up!

Sean

We've been having the What is Crossover? debate for years on here: this is a reply I posted three and a half years ago to the same question...

I don't think "Crossover" as a genre is that helpful a term. Originally it was coined for records which were just good soul that couldn't actually be pigeon-holed as anything else by record dealers. I wouldn't really class Jan Jones, Charles Johnson or Velvet Hammer as Crossover. They all started life as dancefloor records on the old modern northern scene, at venues like Wigan, Bradford and Stafford, where a lot of records which were only a couple of years old (or newer) at the time were played and enjoyed by all.

As the 1980s moved on and contemporary production techniques overtook much iindependently produced soul (crashing drum machines, heavily synthesised strings and horns etc.) the modern sound split from the mainstream northern venues. Records like Jan Jones, Alfie Davison etc. continued to be played on the traditional northern scene, while the modern scene kind of dwindled and mutated into something else, that was not necessarily venue or dancefloor based.

Around the late 1980s and early 1990s what modern venues there were started programming a lot of older-sounding records: it was a kind of backlash against the vapid sounds of contemporary major label output and the diminishing returns of finding independents with the required sound. The older material sounded somehow fresher, and really served to kickstart a moribund collecting scene. A lot of forgotten Mecca and Cleethorpes obscurites got dusted down, together with more than a pinch of earthier southern soul.

Big records of this vintage were labelled Crossover: they appealed to punters from both 'modern' and 'northern' camps. Sounds I remember from this time were things like Willie Tee "First Taste Of Hurt", Cliff Nobles "This Feeling Of Lonlieness" John Edwards "The Look On Your Face", Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love", Maurice Jackson "Lucky Fellow", Margie Joseph "One More Chance", Roz Ryan "You're My Only Temptation", Annette Snell "It's All Over Now", Vic Marcel "You Still Got Me" etc.

Most or all of these had a decidedly midtempo bent, but there was room for other types of sound: John Simeone "Who Do You Love", Tyrone St Germain "In A World So Cold", The Ghetto Children on Roulette and so on.

In summing up, I guess, the Crossover genre can really be pinned down to those records which sounded technologically older, yet still strongly appealed to modern soul fans, regardless of the records' age. I remember the incredible Stomp nights at Camden Dingwalls put on by Simon Dunmore and Ian Clark. Two of the biggest records there were Bill Wright "A Man In Love" and John & The Weirdest "No Time"; what was their common denominator? Quality, I guess.

Sticking my neck out, I'd say most of the current northern or rare soul scene are into Crossover, whether they know it or not. Tunes like The Vanguards "Good Times Bad Times" and The Montclairs "Hey You!" are classic Crossover material. John Pugh played The Vanguards to acclaim on crossover floors over a decade ago, and the first person I ever heard play The Montclairs out was Garry Dennis, many, many moons ago. Records like "Pyramid" always appealed to fans of 60s, 70s, 80s whatever. Great records will always "cross over" in that they will be appreciated by anyone with a sufficiently adventurous palate.

I would have hoped by now we could have dispensed with any labels other than an umbrella term like "Rare Soul."

I would have hoped by now we could have dispensed with any labels other than an umbrella term like "Rare Soul."

Or how about just 'Soul'.

Scores of great records played on the UK Soul scene(s) aren't rare... they're just good Soul records.

I don't consider myself to be anything other than a Soul fan, having bought Soul records for 3-4 years before I'd even heard of 'Northern'.... or any of it's subsequent offspring.

Just Soul.... works for me.

Sean

Sticking my neck out, I'd say most of the current northern or rare soul scene are into Crossover, whether they know it or not....

I agree. Surely the two popular Constellations records have "crossover" appeal too? I would contend that many of the "last hour" Mecca spins fit into the "Crossover" catagory also, (Pat & Pam, Ron & Candy and many more) and that it was at the Highland Room that the existing dancefloor "mould" was initially broken. As the definitions of any musical genre have ALWAYS been plastic and open to modification during the lifetime of it's usage however, we shouldn't get too hung up on it. "It's what's in the grooves that counts" after all, and if it's Soulful, then it's our solemn DUTY to give any recording due consideration and respect!

I personally believe that catagorisation of musical styles of a record DOES have a useful pupose at times, (if only to clarify a position when reviewing it!), however if your taste is varied enough, there's enough good Soul music around to satisfy everyone.

Edited February 2, 200718 yr by mel brat

You are correct, of course, Sean. Generic straightjackets are the (perhaps necessary) invention of those whose job it is to market the music, be they deejays, record dealers, club promoters or re-issue label co-ordinators.

Or how about just 'Soul'.

Scores of great records played on the UK Soul scene(s) aren't rare... they're just good Soul records.

I don't consider myself to be anything other than a Soul fan, having bought Soul records for 3-4 years before I'd even heard of 'Northern'.... or any of it's subsequent offspring.

Just Soul.... works for me.

Sean

Yet another of my anecdotes...!

I well remember during a particularly quiet spell at a '2001 Club' allnighter in 1973, (well it WAS about 6 am!), wondering aloud to Pep why DJs didn't slip in the odd ballad, at Allnighters at least. "Since people aren't dancing that much anyway, wouldn't it be great to hear Esther Phillips' 'Home Is Where The Hatred Is' right now"? I said. He agreed, but we both recognised it would probably never happen at a Northern Soul do! (and perfectly understood the historical reasons why) However, Graham Warr once threw caution to the wind and spun Al Green's "Let's Stay Together" during a particularly quiet spell at The Cats, for which I commend him, though it went down like a lead balloon with some of the other punters present, obviously! A case of "Soul Rules!" versus Dancefloor "rules" that, due to the particular attractions and history of the "rare" Soul scene, we're still struggling to balance perhaps?

Edited February 2, 200718 yr by mel brat

To me it's something that is like Northern soul with that feel but always noted as being funk or Modern etc. Same with artists who make say pop records then tries to record soul music so they would be cross over and again a lot of cross over records would appeal to both collector and listner ie a funk collector would have certain Northern soul records for reason or a Modern Soul fan would enjoy this music aswell as traditional Northern soul fans getting onto it