Well, after advocating their desire to hear peoples views and even going as far as to post on this site under false names, Bolton Octagon have finally shown their true colours. Yesterday, I replied to Sally Boyds posts about artistic freedom and the nature of playwrights and theatre (see 'once upon a time in Wigan, live thread). But, it seems Sally doesn't like people who disagree with her, or, in fact, who are more knowledgeable and articulate than her. So Im going to post the reply i gave to this farce on here (you only get Sally and friends version on the blog).
Lets start with Sallys friend (or is it Sally. It bears the same lack of intellect and awkward desperation )
Hurrah for Emma adding some sense to this debate. I too saw the original production of 'Once Upon a Time in Wigan'and loved it, however I too find some of the comments expressed here incredibly patronising.
Being an 'Arty Farty type' (definition - someone who either watches TV, films, theatre, reads books, looks at paintings, photographs or... listens to music...)I care about the cultural development of this country. I support any theatre which seeks to reach new audiences and showcase new writing. I am saddened and a little puzzled when a Director and Actor (BA and MA being in Theatre Arts) appears to be actively attempting to damage this process.
Joan Livesey mentioned that 'The original music is THE most essential part of the play' which devalues the contributions of the stage crew, designers, writer, director and actors - if this was indeed the case I am suprised that the company didn't instead just pop on stage with a Vestax and some 7 inches...
However having seen the play (more than once) I recall not just the music but some incredible writing, powerful and moving performances and some cracking writing. Unless the Octagon has got it very wrong with the writing, casting and dancing (Mick Martin, one of the original cast members in a new role and Sandy Holt as dance advisor all on board) I see no reasons why any of the elements should disappear.
Break a leg to all involved!
27 May 2008 22:40
mmmmmmmmmm? Mick Martin, one of the original cast members? I dont think so! Hes the writer Sheila, Hurrah! He is also about 43 years old, hardly suitable for playing a 19 year old soulie? You people keep ignoring the comment about the music being ORIGINAL. Vestax, NO, we didnt play them on a vestax at Wigan, rather , on a large sound system, as was used on the Urban Expansion SELL-OUT tours. Your musicians, I hear, are not even present at rehearsal until the last week! Wow, sound like a tight production!
Sally did'nt answer my question about artistic freedom and re-writing history yesterday, so, 'OH well read one', perhaps you can? Casting? They have cast the aging Richard Oldham (he must be 36, he looks it!) as Danny!! Hows that going to work
Its NOT new writing, it toured to 100,000 people and was published and is done by kids at school for audition speeches?! new writing? Huraah Elizabeth, perhaps more reading and less cappuccinos would do you good!
I conceived, devised, directed and toured the play, how dare you suggest I did not value the crew, have you spoken to them? NO!
You could have Gods greatest actors and tech team, BUT and this is the point you keep ignoring Lizzy, without the original music, it is nothing to do with Wigan Casino or the Northern soul scene.
Hurraah for that!
If you are the future of cultural development, we are in big trouble Elizabeth. You seem to barely be able to debate with conscious thought, never mind championing our cultural development. Do you not realise how patronising you sound. I dont even believe that you read a newspaper, never mind anything beyond. If you did, you would recognise that its not a 'truthful' gesture to re-write history, or to look down your nose through the mist of your intellect and tell 'us' that it didn't happen that way!
Thanks to all of you who have posted your views and joined the debate here.
We hoped that this blog would provide a site for a genuine debate to take place and we are more than happy to post views that do not agree with our production, as we believe that discussion and controversy are an integral part of the arts. The debate has thrown up some interesting points on both sides. However, some further posts we have received have now descended into unnecessary personal attacks on bloggers, and Octagon staff, and we have taken the decision not to publish these.
We will publish further comments and posts if we receive them, both from people who like what we are doing and from those who don't. However we can not allow the site to become an arena for comments of an abusive nature.
We have stated our position clearly and this will not change. We know some people don't like what we're doing, and it is absolutely someone's right to dislike it. We however are very excited about the play, and about the production. The music sounds great, the story is moving, and we're very proud to be ending our 40th anniversary season on such a high. We look forward to welcoming the large numbers of you who will join us for the production to the Octagon, and would like to hear your thoughts after you've seen it.
28 May 2008 10:25
I replied to Sally, Elizabeth, Emma....sorry, I mean Sally
Sally, I will NOW post on ALL the websites that you edit and censor comments on your blog. My first reply yesterday was NOT abusive. It pointed out that you know nothing about agents and theatre Sally. You try to come back with theatre analogies about Bennett and Beckett etc, but when you are intellectually challenged on the inaccuracy of your point, you censor it and don't post it on your blog! LAUGHABLE and slightly pitiful. You argue artistic freedom, yet you censor anyone who disagrees. You have shown your (we want your views blog) to be what it is, an endorsement only site for the Octagon. Im even considering getting my own flyer done now, just because of your oppression of freedom of speech. You were abusive to me and others when you said "let it go". You started the personnal stuff. Who are you to tell people to let their passion and memories go! Sad, Sad, Sad, Bolton Octagon, theatre of the people, .as long as they are middle class, conventional theatre goers, who agree with everything you do! God only knows how many other posts you have decided to censor? What is the point of a censored blog? Did I use foul language, or could you not muster a reply to the reality of your farcical production? ALL of the posts you have decided NOT to put up are available on 'SOUL SOURCE' for people to view and decide if they were abusive or just truthful!
Keep the Faith
Paul Sadot
And thats it so far.....Sall and the Octagon really do not seem to have a clue, despite all their Hurrahs and pontificating. Very sad that a public funded body has so little 'soul' or intellect. I will keep you posted because they censor posts
Well, after advocating their desire to hear peoples views and even going as far as to post on this site under false names, Bolton Octagon have finally shown their true colours. Yesterday, I replied to Sally Boyds posts about artistic freedom and the nature of playwrights and theatre (see 'once upon a time in Wigan, live thread). But, it seems Sally doesn't like people who disagree with her, or, in fact, who are more knowledgeable and articulate than her. So Im going to post the reply i gave to this farce on here (you only get Sally and friends version on the blog).
Lets start with Sallys friend (or is it Sally. It bears the same lack of intellect and awkward desperation
)
Sheila said...
Hurrah for Emma adding some sense to this debate. I too saw the original production of 'Once Upon a Time in Wigan'and loved it, however I too find some of the comments expressed here incredibly patronising.
Being an 'Arty Farty type' (definition - someone who either watches TV, films, theatre, reads books, looks at paintings, photographs or... listens to music...)I care about the cultural development of this country. I support any theatre which seeks to reach new audiences and showcase new writing. I am saddened and a little puzzled when a Director and Actor (BA and MA being in Theatre Arts) appears to be actively attempting to damage this process.
Joan Livesey mentioned that 'The original music is THE most essential part of the play' which devalues the contributions of the stage crew, designers, writer, director and actors - if this was indeed the case I am suprised that the company didn't instead just pop on stage with a Vestax and some 7 inches...
However having seen the play (more than once) I recall not just the music but some incredible writing, powerful and moving performances and some cracking writing. Unless the Octagon has got it very wrong with the writing, casting and dancing (Mick Martin, one of the original cast members in a new role and Sandy Holt as dance advisor all on board) I see no reasons why any of the elements should disappear.
Break a leg to all involved!
27 May 2008 22:40
mmmmmmmmmm? Mick Martin, one of the original cast members? I dont think so! Hes the writer Sheila, Hurrah! He is also about 43 years old, hardly suitable for playing a 19 year old soulie?
You people keep ignoring the comment about the music being ORIGINAL. Vestax, NO, we didnt play them on a vestax at Wigan, rather , on a large sound system, as was used on the Urban Expansion SELL-OUT tours. Your musicians, I hear, are not even present at rehearsal until the last week! Wow, sound like a tight production!
Sally did'nt answer my question about artistic freedom and re-writing history yesterday, so, 'OH well read one', perhaps you can? Casting? They have cast the aging Richard Oldham (he must be 36, he looks it!) as Danny!! Hows that going to work
Its NOT new writing, it toured to 100,000 people and was published and is done by kids at school for audition speeches?! new writing? Huraah Elizabeth, perhaps more reading and less cappuccinos would do you good!
I conceived, devised, directed and toured the play, how dare you suggest I did not value the crew, have you spoken to them? NO!
You could have Gods greatest actors and tech team, BUT and this is the point you keep ignoring Lizzy, without the original music, it is nothing to do with Wigan Casino or the Northern soul scene.
Hurraah for that!
If you are the future of cultural development, we are in big trouble Elizabeth. You seem to barely be able to debate with conscious thought, never mind championing our cultural development. Do you not realise how patronising you sound. I dont even believe that you read a newspaper, never mind anything beyond. If you did, you would recognise that its not a 'truthful' gesture to re-write history, or to look down your nose through the mist of your intellect and tell 'us' that it didn't happen that way!
Keep the Faith
Paul Sadot
Sally Boyd said
Sally Boyd said...
Thanks to all of you who have posted your views and joined the debate here.
We hoped that this blog would provide a site for a genuine debate to take place and we are more than happy to post views that do not agree with our production, as we believe that discussion and controversy are an integral part of the arts. The debate has thrown up some interesting points on both sides. However, some further posts we have received have now descended into unnecessary personal attacks on bloggers, and Octagon staff, and we have taken the decision not to publish these.
We will publish further comments and posts if we receive them, both from people who like what we are doing and from those who don't. However we can not allow the site to become an arena for comments of an abusive nature.
We have stated our position clearly and this will not change. We know some people don't like what we're doing, and it is absolutely someone's right to dislike it. We however are very excited about the play, and about the production. The music sounds great, the story is moving, and we're very proud to be ending our 40th anniversary season on such a high. We look forward to welcoming the large numbers of you who will join us for the production to the Octagon, and would like to hear your thoughts after you've seen it.
28 May 2008 10:25
I replied to Sally, Elizabeth, Emma....sorry, I mean Sally
Sally, I will NOW post on ALL the websites that you edit and censor comments on your blog. My first reply yesterday was NOT abusive. It pointed out that you know nothing about agents and theatre Sally. You try to come back with theatre analogies about Bennett and Beckett etc, but when you are intellectually challenged on the inaccuracy of your point, you censor it and don't post it on your blog! LAUGHABLE and slightly pitiful. You argue artistic freedom, yet you censor anyone who disagrees. You have shown your (we want your views blog) to be what it is, an endorsement only site for the Octagon. Im even considering getting my own flyer done now, just because of your oppression of freedom of speech. You were abusive to me and others when you said "let it go". You started the personnal stuff. Who are you to tell people to let their passion and memories go! Sad, Sad, Sad, Bolton Octagon, theatre of the people, .as long as they are middle class, conventional theatre goers, who agree with everything you do! God only knows how many other posts you have decided to censor? What is the point of a censored blog? Did I use foul language, or could you not muster a reply to the reality of your farcical production? ALL of the posts you have decided NOT to put up are available on 'SOUL SOURCE' for people to view and decide if they were abusive or just truthful!
Keep the Faith
Paul Sadot
And thats it so far.....Sall and the Octagon really do not seem to have a clue, despite all their Hurrahs and pontificating. Very sad that a public funded body has so little 'soul' or intellect. I will keep you posted because they censor posts
Edited by paul-s