can someone explain the difference to me (other than Southern Soul originated in Southern USA)

what is the difference between southern soul vs northern soul

can someone explain the difference to me (other than Southern Soul originated in Southern USA)

Just unfortunate names for two very different ways of categorising soul music

Northern Soul = a type of soul music favoured at soul clubs in the north of england since the early 1970s. This can include any soul track that has that thing! made in the USA with a distinctive beat and ultra dancable.

Southern Soul = Soul from the southern area of USA, Stax, Atlantic, Chess, featured greasy horns and deep soul vocals, sometimes thought of as a funkier alternative to the detroit sound of motown

Edited July 27, 200817 yr by jhsoulnotts

except the fact that some northern has no soul at all just that beat that made it danceable

kev

except the fact that some northern has no soul at all just that beat that made it danceable

kev

I, and some Southern Soul tracks get/got played out at Northern do's

Nothern Soul may be one of the most confusing terms in music history. Perfect for snobs who pretend to know exactly what Northern Soul is, while in truth, nobody really does

Nothern Soul may be one of the most confusing terms in music history. Perfect for snobs who pretend to know exactly what Northern Soul is, while in truth, nobody really does

i wonder if dave godin rip realised this when he coined the phrase

kev

Nothern Soul may be one of the most confusing terms in music history. Perfect for snobs who pretend to know exactly what Northern Soul is, while in truth, nobody really does

perhaps thats just you mate?

IMO the worst snobs are those that pretend to be above it all

try being helpful instead of political

I, and some Southern Soul tracks get/got played out at Northern do's

..weird.. that thought crossed my mind last night when watching that stax programme..

Jayne.x.

its quite simple really northern soul is 20 times more expensive to buy than southern soul here endeth the lesson

jhsoulnotts said:

perhaps thats just you mate?

IMO the worst snobs are those that pretend to be above it all

try being helpful instead of political

 

Neh, I'm not above it all. Its just iffy. I'd say Funky Fever by Clarence Carter is a Northern Soul tune. But I doubt everybody agrees with me. In the end I think the term Northern Soul says more about the British Soul scene than it does about Soul music.

Neh, I'm not above it all. Its just iffy. I'd say Funky Fever by Clarence Carter is a Northern Soul tune. But I doubt everybody agrees with me. In the end I think the term Northern Soul says more about the British Soul scene than it does about Soul music.

Thats fine but look at the question that basicallyblues asked... how does this help him/her? i agree with you (apart from the snob thing) that defining one track against another in terms of sound is difficult.

But we all know what northern soul is without being snobby... Its what gets played and danced to at a northern soul night. The definition only gets difficult when you take it out of that context. If CC's - Funky Fever gets played at a northern do - and it gets danced to - its a northern soul record - if not, its not northen, simple as!

On an aside - What I think is infiniately more interesting than trying to decide which record is NS and which Isnt by just its sound - is the complex communication, interaction and agreement that must occur on what makes a NS record between the Dj and the Dancer on the dancefloor.

I suppose you can differentiate between the more rootsy music produced in Memphis or Muscle Shoals in the 60s compared to the rather more slick material that came out of Detroit, which in terms of musical style i.e - 'slightly delayed back-beat' is the fundamental cornerstone of the 'Northern soul sound'...er, isn't it?

Thats fine but look at the question that basicallyblues asked... how does this help him/her? i agree with you (apart from the snob thing) that defining one track against another in terms of sound is difficult.

But we all know what northern soul is without being snobby... Its what gets played and danced to at a northern soul night. The definition only gets difficult when you take it out of that context. If CC's - Funky Fever gets played at a northern do - and it gets danced to - its a northern soul record - if not, its not northen, simple as!

On an aside - What I think is infiniately more interesting than trying to decide which record is NS and which Isnt by just its sound - is the complex communication, interaction and agreement that must occur on what makes a NS record between the Dj and the Dancer on the dancefloor.

Maybe that's as good as a definition as any.

Sorry if my intial post sounded a bit snarky. But I hate specific genre definitions in general. I don't think they do the music justice. Anybody can have a sense if a certain tune is a Soul tune or soulful, but even there it already gets iffy. There are people who feel Rod Steward did some very good Soul singing, other think he should be shot for trying his hands on (I Know) I'm Losing You.

Sorry if my intial post sounded a bit snarky.

S'alright, anyone who's been listening to HRH Dusty S is fine by me!

apologies too, I can be a crabby little sod sometimes!

Interesting question maybe, I was listening to those great Tommy Hunt ballads today, Northern or not?

Tommy Hunt certainly didn't make Southern Soul and Bert Berns and his like are often associated with Northern. Now if dance floor fillers are the definition, than Tommy wouldn't make the grain. I can't help but see him as Northern Soul as well, since I associate it with the more sophisticated and lavishly produced sides as well.

Your call?

Interesting question maybe, I was listening to those great Tommy Hunt ballads today, Northern or not?

Tommy Hunt certainly didn't make Southern Soul and Bert Berns and his like are often associated with Northern. Now if dance floor fillers are the definition, than Tommy wouldn't make the grain. I can't help but see him as Northern Soul as well, since I associate it with the more sophisticated and lavishly produced sides as well.

Your call?

sorry didnt notice your post alex...

I know exactly what you mean, I didnt per say mean they need to be floor fillers, just dancers.

There's all sorts of strange stuff gets played nowadays :-) I really cant get on with seventies stuff - some think its an essential part of a night!

Back to Tommy

His faster tempo stuff would play out well (Never love a Robin)

I had the pleasure of hearing tommy hunts ballad stuff played out in the backroom of Bentinck last one... Cant remember the exact track though. Sounded superb. I love his beat ballads - "Ill make you Happy" and "I dont want to loose you" they have lots of soul but play them as dancers and they prob clear the floor. (Although I would mooch around or do nice slow spins to it!)

Only my opinion and its not a very seasoned one

Rarer soul perhaps, Brilliant definately Northern perhaps not.

But then they could start to get played out and become popular floor fillers...

I shoot myself in the foot here - If you define by sound then stuff like "tim tam and the turn ons" to me is just white pop sh"£te! but define by what is played out and it is therefore northern for better or worse!

Edited July 31, 200817 yr by jhsoulnotts

sorry didnt notice your post alex...

I know exactly what you mean, I didnt per say mean they need to be floor fillers, just dancers.

There's all sorts of strange stuff gets played nowadays :-) I really cant get on with seventies stuff - some think its an essential part of a night!

Back to Tommy

His faster tempo stuff would play out well (Never love a Robin)

I had the pleasure of hearing tommy hunts ballad stuff played out in the backroom of Bentinck last one... Cant remember the exact track though. Sounded superb. I love his beat ballads - "Ill make you Happy" and "I dont want to loose you" they have lots of soul but play them as dancers and they prob clear the floor. (Although I would mooch around or do nice slow spins to it!)

Only my opinion and its not a very seasoned one

Rarer soul perhaps, Brilliant definately Northern perhaps not.

But then they could start to get played out and become popular floor fillers...

I shoot myself in the foot here - If you define by sound then stuff like "tim tam and the turn ons" to me is just white pop sh"£te! but define by what is played out and it is therefore northern for better or worse!

For me ... if it's not got a stomping beat it's not northern. Northern is 100 mph that you can't sit down to.

And there's some stuff played now that was not even considered northern way back .. such as Edwin Starr (brilliant though some of his stuff is). Some stuff is waaay too slow to be true northern ...

For me ... if it's not got a stomping beat it's not northern. Northern is 100 mph that you can't sit down to.

And there's some stuff played now that was not even considered northern way back .. such as Edwin Starr (brilliant though some of his stuff is). Some stuff is waaay too slow to be true northern ...

agreed

I think "rare soul" in all its forms has now defacto taken the place of what you just called "true northern"... shed loads of compilations by companies that just buy up and release thousands of tracks a year (many that were regected back in the day) and publish them as northern, with little or no appreciation of what gets played out these days... and thats why there is a lot of confusion over the definition...

I dont nessesarily think thats a bad thing that tunes at do's are getting slower as there is a definate move towards the seriousness of soul nights... theres a lot of vibrancy and different approaches in different areas which makes travelling to venues a lot of fun... a lot of folks really taking the time to put together challenging sets of underplayed and less known stuff... a lot of really clued up punters are ready for something different...

then again there is the school disco crowd too!

I suppose you can differentiate between the more rootsy music produced in Memphis or Muscle Shoals in the 60s compared to the rather more slick material that came out of Detroit, which in terms of musical style i.e - 'slightly delayed back-beat' is the fundamental cornerstone of the 'Northern soul sound'...er, isn't it?

Just to complicate it a little bit more.

What about the west coast / california stuff. Its orchestration (in the main and imo) was bigger and more complex, it kind of sounds like what eg Motown AND Stax might have sounded like if they had spent more time and money?

I agree with jhsoulnotts, the dancefloor defines Northern, Soul though is much harder. I could find soul in music where the style is nothing like what we dance to at nighters, as all of us could.

Defining Soul is nearly impossible. There's a few artists everybody would agree upon. Arteha Franklin, Otis Redding, nearly nobody will deny their Soul status. Things get interesting when you go back to the roots of the genre.

Listen to those great Birth of Soul compilations that are out there on Kent, quite a bit on there I would label under Pop.

The same dilemma comes back with the Northern Soul discussion, maybe even more so. A lot of what is labeled as Northern Soul could also be labeled as what Brian Ward called Black Pop in his book "Just My Soul Responding."

Much in the same vein I have even ofetn questioned how much of Sam Cooke's material was Soul. Much as I love his great hit singles, are Chain Gang and Cupis Soul tunes or are they (black) pop?

Artists like Irma Thomas transcend all genre.

Good music tends to do that.

Lets just get rid of the Hair bands and call it even.

lol.

can someone explain the difference to me (other than Southern Soul originated in Southern USA)

Could be the same artists with different records. Beach Music is what you are referring to and there is a 6 beat/step dance done to the music that cannot be done with songs that are too fast or too slow.

For great Northern Soul classics like The Entertainer, Hold Back the Night, Party Time Man, just to name a few were big hits in Beach Music, however the ones with the right beat that made it easy to dance the Shag to were the favorites.

The songs could be from anyone, even Pink Floyd has a Beach Music song.

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if northern soul is so called because it was the "60s" soul played in northern clubs surely southern soul should be the "new"early 70s type played in the south of ENGLAND at that time....regardless of where in the states it was made....although i reallise there is a difference between the majority of stax tunes and motown..but then half the musicians in the stax studio were white as were the owners not so in detroit...maybe that was the politics of the usa at that time.....in the mid 80s when i first started going out to northern do's i always though southern soul was the type played in most clubs around the south of england then ,luther and alexandra o'neal etc....now called modern ???.....

lets face it there are plenty stompin tunes made in the south of america aswell as slower ones made in detroit,so its not just about tempo.....and now some 35 years after the term northern was first used it TOO complicated to put it all in little boxes

my personal opinion is northern is a certain feel,whether it be 60s , 70s or even 00s such as nicole willis or sydney barnes and whether it be fast or slow such as cause youre mine or the drifter !!.....

just my opinion and a thought...or two

if northern soul is so called because it was the "60s" soul played in northern clubs surely southern soul should be the "new"early 70s type played in the south of ENGLAND at that time....regardless of where in the states it was made....although i reallise there is a difference between the majority of stax tunes and motown..but then half the musicians in the stax studio were white as were the owners not so in detroit...maybe that was the politics of the usa at that time.....in the mid 80s when i first started going out to northern do's i always though southern soul was the type played in most clubs around the south of england then ,luther and alexandra o'neal etc....now called modern ???.....

lets face it there are plenty stompin tunes made in the south of america aswell as slower ones made in detroit,so its not just about tempo.....and now some 35 years after the term northern was first used it TOO complicated to put it all in little boxes

my personal opinion is northern is a certain feel,whether it be 60s , 70s or even 00s such as nicole willis or sydney barnes and whether it be fast or slow such as cause youre mine or the drifter !!.....

just my opinion and a thought...or two

I think thats where the confusion lies. These arnt opposite terms.

Northern soul defines a type of soul played in England Its a definition made in england by the english music fan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_soul

Southern soul is a definition made in America by American music fans to ditinguish Stax and atlantic style sound from the detriot sound. (what ELPeegee refered to well )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_soul

However, these two definitions have nothing to do with each other and were first made without knowledge of the others existance.

Its unfortunate that these two definitions have become a little mixed up as they have no relationship to each other as definitions (the music is related though obviously)

Any similarity between them is artificial and unfortunate - its not two opposites - (i.e Northern England and Southern England) but two completely different definitions used by two different peoples, for entirely different puposes.

Edited August 6, 200817 yr by jhsoulnotts

I think thats where the confusion lies. These arnt opposite terms.

Northern soul defines a type of soul played in England Its a definition made in england by the english.

Southern soul is a definition made in America by Americans to ditinguish Stax and atlantic style sound from the detriot sound. (what ELPeegee refered to well )

However, these two definitions have nothing to do with each other and were first made without knowledge of the others existance.

Its unfortunate that these two definitions have become a little mixed up as they have no relationship to each other as definitions (the music is related though obviously)

The distiction between them is artificial - its not two opposites - (i.e Northern England and Southern England) but two completely different definitions used by two different peoples, for entirely different puposes.

At last a sensible answer, was going to make same comment but didn't as no doubt people would have though me being my usual moaning, elitist self, as I believe has been said.

Southern soul means something way outside the concept of Northern, and is genuinely a genre of Soul.

And to the guy you are quoting, to say you can't define the genre is nuts, read Peter Guralnick Sweet Soul Music, and learn something.

JH you may be one of those pesky young but not so young types, but I like you, you listen and learn, and know a lot more than some of those old but definitely old types.

Edited August 6, 200817 yr by jocko

Im pretty sure the term "Uptown" soul was in use in USA at one time. I'd say most Northern but not all would fit into that description. Less of a nod towards the Blues.

ROD

Could be the same artists with different records. Beach Music is what you are referring to and there is a 6 beat/step dance done to the music that cannot be done with songs that are too fast or too slow.

For great Northern Soul classics like The Entertainer, Hold Back the Night, Party Time Man, just to name a few were big hits in Beach Music, however the ones with the right beat that made it easy to dance the Shag to were the favorites.

The songs could be from anyone, even Pink Floyd has a Beach Music song.

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Totally totally off topic (apologies)

Is that video really pink floyd?...that video deffo isn't '71 and it only sounds a fraction possibly like them..

cheers

Jayne.x.

Yes, it is Pink Floyd Jayne from the album Meddle

(not your doing Jayne) but, have not a clue what fookin beach music has to do with this topic?

At last a sensible answer, was going to make same comment but didn't as no doubt people would have though me being my usual moaning, elitist self, as I believe has been said.

Southern soul means something way outside the concept of Northern, and is genuinely a genre of Soul.

And to the guy you are quoting, to say you can't define the genre is nuts, read Peter Guralnick Sweet Soul Music, and learn something.

JH you may be one of those pesky young but not so young types, but I like you, you listen and learn, and know a lot more than some of those old but definitely old types.

i agree with JHs simple and correct answer to the original question....my thread which he quoted was highlighting that confusion he talks of (northern/british-southern/american)...its not that i didnt know the history of the terms or know the differences in the styles of music....whether it be doo wap,rnb,up tempo/mid tempo,blue eyed,group harmony(girl)funk,70s,deep modern or what ever !!...especially as i have played both drums and bass in the past.....

all very compicated....especially when discussed on a pc instead of at a do !.....and is also the reason why our night in bristol advertises 60s soul on the flyer and has no mention of northern....but jocko i dont need to read a book and go learn something about soul....ive been around it all my life since hearing both my older brother and parents playing it thank you...

but then i was expecting that kind of reply from someone

Totally totally off topic (apologies)

Is that video really pink floyd?...that video deffo isn't '71 and it only sounds a fraction possibly like them..

cheers

Jayne.x.

Yes it is really Pink Floyd. The song is on the Meddle album and was recorded in 1971.

Yes Exactly.

I think where people struggle is with the RnB / Beach / Funky-Agro strains of Northern Soul. The Confusing Trinity as I call them. If you're in the music, you just understand it. If you're not, then you most likely never will, (save the guides, of course).

Soul music is "beach music", however what became really popular in the SE USA is the type of soul music that has a mid to slow temp rhythm which enables you to dance a certain dance, the Carolina Shag.

The dance has remained the same for 50+ years and is always danced with a partner. The dance is a six step dance in its simplest form that does not fit well with up tempo music. It is far more relaxed dance than the dance done in the UK to "Northern Soul"

So, IMO, it is the dance that determines which songs are "Beach Music".

Most of us Southerners love all soul music and to listen all the time, do other dances to faster soul music, but only dance the Shag to Beach Music.

Make any sense?

Northern Soul Vs Southern Soul ,i`d say Northern is like a pint of bitter,strong,full of body,plenty of oomph,liked by working classes and Southern Soul a bit like a week pint from down south .

Northern Soul Vs Southern Soul ,i`d say Northern is like a pint of bitter,strong,full of body,plenty of oomph,liked by working classes and Southern Soul a bit like a week pint from down south .

FFS, its like groundhog day in ere! someone close this thread!

FFS, its like groundhog day in ere! someone close this thread!

Take a chill pill jh.

Dont read it if it bothers you.

Quite simple.....

With Northern soul you wear the 'Bags' - With Southern soul you dance round them.....

Unfortunately, the term "Southern Soul" WAS frequently used to describe the (generally funky and contemporary) type of Soul recording being played in the clubs of London and the South of England in the early 70s too! As an example of this usage, refer to the two contrasting albums of Stax material released by UK Pye C.1975. Older fans may take all of this for granted, however it is apparent that these once familiar terms are now fraught with confusion and misunderstanding.

For the record, (as it were), 'Southern Soul' generally means recordings done south of the Mason-Dixon line (ie. in the Southern (US) States). Most Stax and Muscle Shoals recordings are prime examples of this genre.

"Northern Soul" meanwhile is/was an exclusively UK definition of records favoured in Northern Soul clubs - which could have been recorded anywhere and at anytime and may not even be bone-fide Soul records by American recording artists to qualify!

Edited August 11, 200817 yr by mel brat