Geoff

I'm not sure you are entirely correct about segregation in pop music. There were pop, country and western and rhythm and blues charts (in Billboard and Cashbox I think). During the 50s Elvis Presley, Bill Haley, Carl Perkins and Jerry Lee Lewis had hits in all 3 charts. Little Richard, Fats Domino, Larry Williams, Jackie Wilson and many other black rock'n'roll/rhythm and blues singers had hits in the pop charts as well as the R&B ones. As far as I know the earliest black record (in an R&B mode) to get in the pop charts in the USA was the Orioles version of Crying In The Chapel. It is possible that the Dominoes' 60 Minute Man got in the pop charts, 51 or 52. There were attempts to cover rock'n'roll hits by Pat Boone and others, but they were swept aside when the teenagers of the time heard the originals by Fats Domino (Ain't That A Shame) and Little Richard (Tutti Frutti and Long Tall Sally) and others. In the early 60s Brook Benton was one of the biggest stars prior to the "British invasion". Certainly some of his records then wouldn't sound out of place at an R&B night now, imo. There were certainly problems when package tours were in the segregated southern states, but black singers on independent labels did get in the US charts. Did anybody buying the Isley Brothers Motown records not know they were black? Surely not, they'd appeared on Ready Steady Go earlier plugging their then current release The Last Girl. Going back to the original question of the thread, I am sure it was just records DJs reckoned would fit in with the other sounds they were playing.

Hi Tony, I didn't actually hear this one played at the time, heard it much later, probably in the 80s, from compilation LPs and on the radio. It all depended where you went, just as nowadays. I can only remember a fraction of what was played, but every now and then I hear something that rings a bell for me. The Cheater is a great record imo, would have loved to dance to it in my youth.

A uni tour sounds a good idea, to be paid to talk about the thing you love. Wonderful. If only. I do worry that I am a bit of a bore on this old stuff. Stop me if I go on too much.

I'm never going to get any work done at this rate, lol. Live acts certainly appeared in the clubs I used to attend. As I said earlier the Flamingo was more a live act club, than a record club (the dreaded word discotheque come to mind, just came into general use then). I didn't see any live acts at the Last Chance or La Discotheque, but the Scene had plenty, the Animals, possibly the Rolling Stones, I think Bo Diddley joined in an impromptu jam session when he visited it; and I remember a group doing one of those nonstop sessions, think it was Them, but can't swear to it, think it was supposed to go on for a week. I am not a big fan of going to see live acts now, and I remember being cheesed off when that was going on. But I tried to see all the American artistes who toured the UK during the 60 and 70s, so it may have been me being annoyed at missing a Tuesday night session there. One thing that is certainly different from now is that clubs were on most nights of the week, e.g. the Scene was actually a place, unlike when the CSC was on at the Dome on a Friday every 2 months. The Flamingo was open most nights, might have been a lot of jazz on possibly. And the Marquee was open most nights, and that was a live venue. Hope you can understand what I am saying in this paragraph. Most of the groups you mention would have appeared in clubs all over the country and wouldn't have appeared on the package tours in theatres or cinemas till they'd had hits. I suppose if you run a club in those days and you had to put something on each night, live acts were essential. They had their followers, I used to go to the Marquee every Friday for a quite a long time in middle 64 to see the Yardbirds with Eric Clapton, at the time it seemed totally brilliant, he was fantastic, but of course using Freddie King and others as his inspiration. I attended some of the recording sessions there for 5 Live Yardbirds, and when I heard it some years later, it didn't have the magic. So I guess live music is strictly of the moment. Also used to get along there when the Who were on. My mates had seen them earlier on than me, might have been in their High Numbers incarnation. I used to get to the Marquee when the Moody Blues (with Denny Laine) were on, they were really good live. Prefer that band to the later Nights In White Satin stuff. All the early beat groups did loads of cover versions. The Beatles did long stints in Hamburg clubs, therefore needed a big repertoire, the CD Beatles at the Beeb is almost all covers. Lesley was a big Stones fan, used to go to Eel Pie Island to see them before we started going out together, often spoke of hearing songs they didn't include on their LPs. I found the Stones' covers more annoying than the Beatles, as I thought it was taking the credit from the black American singers I liked. Nowadays I am much more tolerant, their records must have interested people in searching for the originals. Your para about soul and pop is correct imo. I suspect most of us have put soul on a slightly higher level than pop, most of us like to be a bit different in our musical taste, and the emergence of really obscure records has exacerbated the trend. Let's be honest, we are all highly protective of our underground scene, and want to keep it exclusive.

Hi Dave, Jay & The Americans are one of my favourite white pop groups, only got compilations of them, but so good, both slow and uptempo. I understand Living Above My Head was played on the NS scene, always liked that, but didn't hear it out in the 60s, but everything depends on where you went to. Absolutely agree about the rich tapestry of the scene, diversity helps keep it interesting.

Hi Ian, Sorry you didn't get to the TOS reunion, I'd like to have had a chat with you. I suspect that Can't Help Loving You was recorded around the time when a lot of white artistes were trying to have hits by producing their versions of a sort of Motown sound, e.g. Len Barry's 1-2-3 and Like A Baby (although to be fair to Len he'd been the lead singer of the Dovells who made some good uptempo doowop tracks, Bristol Stomp, You Can't Sit Down, etc.); the Newbeats' Run Baby Run; the Four Seasons' Let's Hang On; can't think of others at the moment, I'm at work so don't have access to my reference books. And it wasn't that long ago that Paul Anka had been one of the biggest pop teen idols in the USA, loads of hits. No reason why he wouldn't have a go at an ersatz soul record, after all everyone wants a hit, and being a comparatively young guy he may well have liked Motown and other soul labels. He was on a Radio 4 programme just a week or 2 ago, wish it had been a phone in because I might have tried to get through to ask him about it, or has someone done that already? When was Queen Of Fools recorded? Barbara Mills was probably trying for a hit with the current successful sounds that were getting into the charts in the states. There must have been loads of similar records over there that we've never heard about.

On the question of the availability of the music, I assume availability of records is what you're asking. Records didn't get deleted so quickly, therefore you could find older records (e.g. Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, etc) fairly easily I think. Also there was a lot of re-issues taking place, partly because of the burgeoning interest in R&B in the music press and also the Mersey boom, based in part on covering originals. Current releases were played, Guy Stevens had the Sue label, plus American records certainly found there way into the clubs before release over here. I think the DJs played what they thought would fit in, keep people dancing, and no doubt had there personal preferences. I don't recall pop records as such being played at the Flamingo, I'm sure they played Georgie Fame's Yeh Yeh, but he was a resident there for ages, but the Flamingo was slightly different from La Discotheque, Last Chance and Scene. More live acts at the Flamingo than anything else if I recall correctly. Is it possible that nowadays we are more "politically correct" about what should be played? In the long run, it's about having a good time at a night out, and if a pop record is played that fits in, where is the harm in it?

Yes, they could be. I used to go and ask the DJ what the records were then, just as I do now. I suppose it depended on what clubs you went to. Personally never minded what was played if it fitted together okay, just like now. Heard a few blue eyed tracks recently that I wouldn't mind getting.

In the original Mod era some pop records were played in clubs, because they had the right sound to fit in with the R&B/Soul records more generally played. Phil Spector's hits were played, although you could say they were definitely on the fringes of soul. I recently did a CD of Mod sounds for an SS member and included the following pop tracks that were played in the clubs I frequented: Everly Brothers' Price Of Love; Kingsmen's Jolly Green Giant; Ronnie & The Daytonas' Little GTO; Jewel Akens' Birds And The Bees, etc. Others I remember were the Vogues' You're The One; Lou Christie's Lightning Strikes (and possibly Two Faces Have I and The Gypsy Cried); Beach Boys' Barbara Ann (possibly others by them) and the Loving Spoonful's Do You Believe In Magic. Definitely others were played but it was a long time ago. Most of these were tracks you could dance to, and, no doubt, the DJs liked them. And that might be the main reason, DJs preference. Never heard Beatles or Stones, etc played in the clubs, but were played in dance halls, e.g. Tottenham Royal.

You Don't Want Me No More was played at the TOS reunion/PTP's birthday do on Saturday. But you don't hear ML much these days do you? Similarly the only Impressions track that seems to be played at NS do's is You've Been Cheating. At Modern/Crossover you occasionally hear I'll Always Be Here (I've played that) and Wherever You Leadeth (think that's the right title). Some of Major's old American hits like Monkey Time would be great for dancing at a Northern night, but maybe they are too well known; same for some of the Impressions tracks as well. Perish the thought of playing something not totally obscure, lol.

Natural Impulse - She Went Away Wish I could afford a copy, if there was one for sale of course. Loads of others I've liked but that one sticks in my mind.

I have a feeling that the poll where Judy Street is number one is one of the Blues and Soul ones I referred to. Still got to find them, might take some time. Have to disagree with your comments about What, imo one of the greatest classic NS tracks ever, and you don't hear it that often, not in London or Herts anyway. As someone else said some time ago, imagine what the effect would be if it was a new discovery now. We'd all be going mad over it. Just my opinion of course. Thanks to Supercorsa for posting the other top 100, I was frantically searching my hard disk for the folder, found it just after seeing your post.

I've got them all as MP3s (shock horror), and will try to compile a list. The problem with us on SS compiling a top 500 would be that we'd probably be changing our minds every 5 minutes, depending on what we were listening to at the time.

There is actually another bottom 100, that I think was featured when the Top 500 was re-issued. I have a feeling that number 1 was Laura Green's Moonlight, Music And You, and the top 5 included Pressure (Drizabone) and Don't Send Nobody Else (Ace Spectrum). I'm at work at the moment so I have nothing else to refer to, only my memory (what a joke that is). I'm sure others on here will remember what tracks were in it. We went through all the tracks on KTF and commented, I remember Chalky commented on quite a few of them. Incidentally the Four Vandals was in it, lol. How was the original top 500 compiled? As the scene covers so many different styles nowadays I doubt if you could get any of us to agree. I've got a couple of top 100s compiled by Blues And Soul, from 1977 and 1997 (I think they are the dates) that I got from the Internet. They are interesting as I found them when I started going out to clubs again, majority of records were new to me. I'll look for them at home, but may take some time as they may be on my old PC, which I'd need to set up again.

Louie Louie was definitely played in clubs frequented by Mods in the early / mid 60s. Not so sure about the Standells, but similar garage type tracks were played (Castaways, etc). Nowadays the Standells wouldn't fit into an R&B night, and the Kingsmen would be too well known to be played. Not sure about Mod do's. All my own opinion of course, may be totally wrong.

Interesting website. Certainly looked a slightly younger audience than the average Northern do in the UK. I must show my ignorance by not knowing that many of the tracks listed, but some looked as if they were on the funky side. I don't think that too much of that sort of thing would go down quite so well over here at a Northern night. But no doubt a younger crowd, without our prejudices, might well enjoy it. If the scene is to have a long term future that seems the way to go.

I've read all the posts on this and found it most interesting. However I have to ask why some people think ANMHE is a pop record? It doesn't matter if it got to number 1 in the hit parade in the UK or the USA, it is still a soul record imo. Or does a record that gets into the charts automatically become a pop record? As has been said in other threads, no one makes a record hoping that in 30 or 40 years some people in England will decide it is a rare classic Northern Soul record and play it. And then it will go for silly money on Ebay. Surely all records are made with the hope of commercial success in their musical fields; and hopefully success in the charts. I'm quite surprised that ANMHE wasn't a hit in the UK, remember hearing it enough at the time, but I'm at work, so can't consult my reference books. I've heard it plenty of times over the last year or so at soul nights, it fills the floor, and I enjoy dancing to it. I like the rare stuff as much as anyone on here, but some records are just really nice to hear, maybe in a little while it will go back in the box and be replaced by something else. It's easy to forget how good some of those oldies really are; and how everyone went wild about them at the time. Surely we can all put up with occasionally hearing something not to our taste at a soul night; after all it is meant to be an enjoyable night out, not some test of whether we've got good taste as decided by other people. As for McFadden & Whitehead, I've heard Sam play the sports version at Soul Essence, somehow it didn't sound right, suppose I expected the normal lyrics. Probably been okay if I didn't know the normal version. I wouldn't have thought this was one for a Northern night though, surely too disco, lol. At Essence he also played a rather strange version of What's Going On, not a patch on Marvin.

As far as I know He's A Rebel was composed by Gene Pitney, originally for Vicki Carr, but Phil Spector got in first with the Crystals.

Maurice Williams was also the lead singer with the Gladiolas, who recorded the original version of Little Darlin', which was overtaken by the white cover version by the Canadian group the Diamonds. They specialised in covers of mainly black doo wop songs. I don't know if MW wrote Little Darlin', but I suspect he did. Anyway that's my bit of useless information for today.

Don't know if British issues count under this thread but I bought the following on release in the UK. Invitations - What's Wrong With Me Baby - Stateside Chuck Jackson - Hand It Over (bought it for the A side Since I Don't Have You) - Pye Int Willie Mitchell - That Driving Beat (B side of Everything's Gonna Be Alright, both sides played at the time) - London (I think, can't be bothered to find it) Kim Weston - I'm Still Loving You - Stateside or Tamla Motown, again can't be bothered to look Detroit Spinners - I'll Always Love You - Tamla Motown Temptations - Why You Wanna Make Me Blue - Stateside Various other Motown, Atlantic, etc.

Nice to read there are still people around with trade union principles.

Were Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel and Don't Stop The Music played at the Casino? Actually wouldn't mind chicken in a basket or something edible at a soul night at about midnight or 1am, always seem to be hungry then.

Joseph Webster - My Love Is Strong

Will it include his version of Do What You Gotta Do? It was the original I think, well before Nina Simone or the Four Tops.

While it would take cattle prodders to get me to dance to The Snake, it is the sort of track that appeals to non soul people. I imagine many on SS don't particularly want to hear Ghost In The House, The Night, etc, but I've seen them fill a dance floor with people whom you wouldn't classify as soulies. They are enjoying it so no harm done. I'm sure everyone has a favourite classic oldie, and are pleased when they hear it. And even some that are not particular favourites are nice to hear out occasionally. Judy Street's What always gets me out on the floor, you don't hear it that much do you? The other week I heard You've Got Your Mind On Other Things played, can't think who sings it, memory letting me down yet again. But it was nice to hear it. However saying that, a whole evening of classic top 500 stompers begins to pall after a while. Yet I know people who find the rarer medium or slower tempo records boring, so just got to accept we are all different. If The Snake became a hit, it may encourage some people to investigate our music further, and maybe give some money to Al Wilson or his family.