Roburt

Three of my all time faves (from back in the mid 60's) are Marvin Smith "Have More Time" & the Artistics "I'm Gonna Miss You / Hope We Have" ... Sonny Sanders worked on them all .... talented or what.

As I said above, lots of the backing tracks on cuts from the LP were re-cycled from earlier Detroit studio sessions .... BUT I think the backing on "With This Ring" was newly created & not recycled (could be wrong though). Guess with Chicago acts / sessions using Detroit musicians & going for the Detroit Sound, Luther Dixon decided to do the same to 'update' the Platters sound. It certainly worked, whoever's idea it was. "Washed Ashore" was a Wylie / Hester / Sanders effort too. The Platters cut in New York but guess the backing track had been cut in Detroit once again. Jumping back to Tony & Tyrone, their "Please Operator" seems to have gained a LATE release (Nov 67) for the people involved. If it was actually cut in Detroit, I'd say it had 'sat around' for a while before Atlantic picked it up.

When you check the 45 version of "With This Ring" it gives the writers as Popcorn + Tony Hester + Luther Dixon, with Luther also producing. Of course, the track was included on their 'Going Back To Detroit' LP which featured recycled old Detroit recorded backing tracks. I was told that Gene Redd was also involved with the Platters on "With This Ring". Neither Sonny Sanders of Gene Redd seem to ever get an acknowledgement as having worked with the Platters on the recording. I interviewed Sonny Turner years ago (lead singer with the Platters in 60's) but I didn't think to ask him about the making of "With This Ring" and who was involved. Does anything relevant get a mention in the booklet to Kent's CD .. The Platters Musicor Years ? . . I have the CD somewhere but no idea where.

Gene Redd in charge on this, with lots of other Detroiters involved too ... would this have been cut @ GW ? ...

FORGOT JUST ABOUT THE BEST TWO MOTOWN LP'S .... 'What's Going On' ... not a duff track .. AND 60's soul supreme >>> The Isley Brothers – This Old Heart Of Mine

As already mentioned, the Sam Dees, Doris Duke & Sandra Wright LP's + 'New Religion' take some beating. I used 'New Religion' as a learning tool back in 66 ... trying to track down copies of the original versions of each track on the album. The Impressions also put out numerous great albums, as did their old leader Curtis after he went solo. James Carr's 'You Got My Mind Messed Up' and the first two Sam & Dave Stax albums from 1966 are great too. As a spin off thread, it'd also be great to learn what Sourcer's fave live albums were.

Thanks for the input. Is it known if Sonny fell out with the GW management or did he just get a better offer to go to Chicago. Obviously at that time (late 65 / early 66). lots of Chicago artists were going with a 'Detroit sound', so it only seems sensible that they'd recruit guys who knew how things were done in the Motor city. And it wasn't just Brunswick acts that were going 'Detroit', Fontella Bass over @ Chess went with the sound too from late summer 65. Anyone got the full SP of Gene Redd's transition from GW to De-Lite ? ANOTHER QUESTION: did the Brit soul guys who spent time in Detroit, tracking down the 60's music biz folk there, manage to establish who the producers / arrangers on lots of GW tracks were ? Obviously the likes of Sonny Sanders, Gene Redd and others would have been utilised on such duties when working @ GW. Paying for all GW's facilities obviously left the company short on cash. I wonder if the volume of 'outside work' that they had been expecting through 1965 didn't actually materialise. Has a full listing of 'outside tracks' cut @ Golden World been compiled ? ALSO, guess BG would not have been too impressed seeing ads such as the one placed by Roulette in 65...

Anuda duet ... a cover but who cares ..

2 of the first LP's I ever bought ... BIG SIXTEEN BIG SIXTEEN Vol.2

Done more digging & this came up on 45cat ... Local (Aussie) charts were supposedly based on local sales but in practice were published by the radio stations themselves and of course reflected their own playlists. So it seems Edwin's "WAR" was not played on radio stations in Adelaide, Brisbane, Hobart, Perth & Sydney BUT it was played on the radio in Melbourne. Australia sent lots of troops to fight in Viet Nam, so I guess the commercial radio stns there would think it unpatriotic to play an anti-Vietnam war song. But his 45 did chart nationally, so copies of it were obviously selling ... even in cities where the radio stns wouldn't play it.

More relevant bits from posts on 45cat ... The reason Motown, or Stax, or Atlantic, or Chess etc never caught on in Australia in the early to mid '60s was commercial radio stations were very very selective in what they played. They restricted their playlists generally to safe pop hits from America and the U.K. and usually steered clear of any records that sounded remotely "black". thus the Marvelettes 45's wouldn't get played on Aussie radio ... certainly no R&B or soul records on Atlantic or Chess were played. White Aussie cover versions of American hits by black artists of course got airplay but many fine records by black artists were never played, and therefore never heard and never bought. Local charts were supposedly based on local sales but in practice were published by the radio stations themselves and of course reflected their own playlists. In those days people generally only bought what they'd actually heard on the radio anyway, and what they heard was just a small percentage of what was released here. why press and release them unless someone was buying them... I always thought, here in Australia, that it was a "throw 'em against the wall and see what sticks" policy. In other words, wait and see which particular records would get played by the radio stations and by definition they would be the potential "hits". Meanwhile, as in the case of this particular Marvelettes record, the record companies would be cautious, pressing maybe a hundred copies with promo stickers, and if there was no reaction from radio there was no follow-up pressing run and the record would be deleted within a very short time. The reps would come around with samples, I would order what I thought was a goer, the rest, if requested, I would get in via the release sheets. EMI and a couple of other companies had a half yearly 5% returns allowance, I guess, in part, to encourage the shop to take a punt on lesser known releases. These would be classed as deleted stock.

The piece below (from 1965) makes mention of the music publishing company pushing the record label in Australia to release 45's featuring their music. A similar mention was made regarding the Marvelettes "Please Mr Postman" above ... SEEMS that music publishing companies were more influential in getting records released in Australia than elsewhere. Almost as influential as the actual record companies (such as EMI) were themselves. Don't think they had as much say in the UK or US.

Looking @ Aussie Tamla Motown 45 releases, I came across this info on 45 cat ... . . . . EDWIN STARR -- WAR / HE WHO PICKS A ROSE 45 Tamla Motown #TMO-9174 Australian (Kent) Music Report (Top 100): Entry date 5 Oct 1970, Peak 37, Weeks 17. Adelaide Charts: Did not chart. Brisbane Charts: Did not chart. Hobart Charts: Did not chart. Melbourne Charts: Entry date 3 Oct 1970, Peak 9, Weeks 16. Perth Charts: Did not chart. Sydney Charts: Did not chart. So Edwin's biggie made the national Aussie chart & the chart in Melbourne, but not the singles charts in 5 of the other biggest cities in the country. Anyone know how the Aussie singles chart worked ? . . . . Was it compiled purely from record sales ? Seems strange this 45 failed to chart in 5 of the 6 big cities there but still made the national chart.

From January 1965 ... EMI Australia boss ... but he doesn't have the look of someone who'd be a big T/Motown fan and who spent time ensuring the label was well promoted there ...

Well, the thread title is EMI Australia & it was EMI Australia that put out Cameo Parkway stuff till 66. From the 1950's on, EMI UK exported lots of their old machinery / equipment when their facilities in the UK were upgraded. Earlier, their 78 rpm pressing machines had gone to the likes of India & Pakistan. In the 60's & 70's, their recording studio machinery (from the likes of abbey Rd) was sent to Australia for them to use to cut their local artists (8 track, 16 track recording equipment, etc.). If EMI Australia's studio equipment was 2nd hand from the UK (perhaps there was less import duty / tax due on 2nd hand or low costed machinery), then did EMI UK also send 'old' pressing plant machines to Australia. If that did occur, it may account for mentions of EMI Aussie 45's & LP's (including T/ Motown stuff) being of dubious quality at times.

With some record companies not having much representation in Australia, EMI kept some stuff there long after it had lost it in the UK. Cameo Parkway changed from EMI licensing to Pye in summer 62. In Australia, EMI was still releasing Chubby Checker 45's in summer 66 ... But EMI Aussie execs were on Motown's radar by 1970, as both EMI London & EMI Aussie guys attended a Motown San Fran sales meeting in 1970. But London was sending guys who'd worked in the UK back to Aussie to take on top EMI jobs in Sydney. Forgot to post this up, an EMI released Chubby Checker 45 in 1966 ...

A couple of related bits ...

Guess you'll struggle to talk to anyone with direct involvement with EMI Australia back then as by now they'd be in their 80's (at least). For most of the 20th century, EMI was the largest recording company in the world, and it dominated the local markets in most Commonwealth countries including Australia. It held something of a stranglehold on the Aussie market (it resisted record shops from importing copies of foreign pressed records & even had the local police raid such shops & confiscate their stock). Through its various house labels and the other labels it distributed locally EMI dominated the Australasian record market from the 1920's to the early 1960's. Its privileged status as a British-owned company operating in a Commonwealth country and Australia's protectionist trade regulations led to situation in which the vast majority of 'foreign recorded' records released there up to 1950 were made by British artists. Many influential jazz / blues recordings by American artists were never released in Australia. EMI became even stronger in Australia (& most other territories) after the advent of the Beatles & the Mersey Sound / British Invasion. Australia's relatively small population meant that companies such as EMI gave preference to releases which they expected to sell strongly. As a result, many titles were not released locally and were only available as imports (some via EMI themselves). Local collectors wanted import copies lots of the time as Australian pressings were often of inferior quality (or so I believe). Because of this, there was always a steady demand for imported British and American made 45's / LP's. EMI's dominance began to fade in the country in the mid-1970s. EMI initially refused to release many progressive tracks in Australia, but with local radio promotion some import-only records became big sellers. So EMI were eventually obliged to give some of the 'lesser selling albums' a local release. Seems EMI execs in Aussie were happier that pop / Motown releases would sell better. EMI's were the acknowledged market leader in Australasia through the 1960s. But, due to the foreign licensing deals they'd secured, on several occasions Festival Records releases outsold EMI's. EMI Aussie didn't seek it's own 'licensing deals' for foreign product but up to the 1950's & beyond most of EMI Australian output was sourced from EMI's UK catalogue and via the UK from it's US labels (both in-house & licensed deal material such as the Motown stuff). EMI started to develop local artists careers thru the 1960's (& into the early 70's), so they were putting out locally recorded stuff in that period. Some of this local stuff caught on abroad, with a few Aussie artists having hits overseas. In 1970 EMI Australia was one of the group of record companies that took on local commercial radio stations. Following changes to Australia's copyright laws in 1968, the labels scrapped a long-standing agreement with the commercial radio sector & tried to get royalties for every play of one of their releases. Most major American labels (CBS, RCA and Warner) didn't join this fight and their stuff continued to get extensive Aussie radio plays -- how this effected Tamla Motown cuts in Australia I don't really know. BUT I GUESS, if the radio stns were boycotting plays of most EMI's releases, then that would have included their T/Motown stuff too. In 1968 EMI Australia ended the separate cataloguing systems used on its house labels and on the labels it distributed (including stuff on Capitol, Stateside and Tamla-Motown). They combined all labels under a single unified numbering system which was in the # '8000' series. So the original local T/M numbering system of TMO-101 was abandoned at TMO-199 (to the best of my knowledge). New releases were then numbered TMO-8328, 8334, 8344, etc (so not continuously & sequentially numbered any longer). EMI (Aussie) in 1969 started the new subsidiary label, Harvest Records, to market acts from the emerging progressive rock genre. This was the start of the end for many EMI R&B releases as the market changed in favour of prog rock material. Tamla Motown stuff still got released as so many of those releases through the mid 60's to mid 70's had always enjoyed decent sales levels (though not at 'top of the chart' volumes).

Many moons ago, Dave was a Charly rep. HE did their NS albums for them. He moved on to a greater love (job wise) but has been 'linked' to Charly's new NS releases ... but I don't think he has got that much 'hands on' involvement with them.

My post is really just a listing of what I already know about the GW set-up. With a couple of questions I really wanted the answer to added on. I'm no Detroit expert, whilst we have many much more knowledgeable such folk on here. I am hoping they'll post on this thread & fill in some of the gaps. FOR INSTANCE ... are the details / circumstances of Sonny Sanders & Gene Redd's work with GW and their reasons for leaving known ? On lots of GW / Ric Tic 45's there is minimal info on the arranger / producers involved. Sonny was with GW in 64 but had relocated to Chicago & was with Brunswick by 68. Gene Redd was with GW in 65/ 66 but was with Kool & the Gang / De Lite by 69.

The 'troublemaker' is back ...

Didn't Charly first go 'off-shore' when they were in trouble for releasing Chess tracks (to Holland I seem to recall).

By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded. Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.). By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures. But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ? JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again. This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then. So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records) -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down.

Didn't Charly do a big promotion at the recent Blackpool weekender ... utilising Levanna, the leader of the Bristol soul crew. Think their new NS 45's were launched at the event. I'm sure the promoters of that event (Richard Searling, etc.) would know who to contact at Charly.

Fraid not, I didn't even know there was a pressing plant in Newport till I researched Spot & their releases. Obviously lots of other stuff must have been pressed there but I've no idea what.