Modernsoulsucks

"I told you just a couple of wraps would have been enough!"

I've known Robb K for nearly 30 years and he is a great one for constructing theories based on available limited evidence which far from being "sure" is purely speculation.For instance he had me looking for non-existent 45s back in the early 80's. He just thought they ought to have come out!! He was Tom de Pierro's mate and silent partner in Airwave label [Mel Carter,Delia Renee etc] and was involved in the "From the Vaults" project if only as a sounding board for what tracks to include as his knowledge of Motown is second to none. From what I gather LA motown did have a copy or two. Whilst working there Tom "acquired" one of those. I met Tom in 1980 and he told me that far from loaning the 45 to Sousson he'd made the mistake of leaving him in his office unattended and didn't realise it was missing till long after. He had a few shelves full of 45s. It was via Tom and Robb that those first unissued Motown tracks got played back at Stafford. I must admit that I veer towards Andy K's assertion that for a finished demo product 6 seems extremely low but then there's no definite evidence that there were more other than the easy availability of most Motown demo copies which suggests that usually they were produced in large numbers. There is however the precedent of the Patrice Holloway 45 on VIP although Im not sure how many copies of that exist or if it's only a demo or regular issue. Finally whilst it's interesting that FW is coming up for sale, the fever-pitch of speculation surrounding it is hard to understand when I can't imagine too many if any on here getting involved. ROD

Rich,I've got 'em all now and I've just looked and felt. Same vinyl and markings; virtue,LW and scratched matrix. All have that dip towards middle; you know not perfectly flat label. That's "Storm warning" blue/blue, "Help wanted" blue/black and "Your number one" white/black : that's label colour /writing respectively. "Laws.." and a few others are upstairs and pretty sure they're white/black. There were "boots" of some of the Arctic but they're easy to tell. Don't know why there's this sudden doubt being cast on Arctic 45s especially assertion that there were no Kenny Gamble's "Joke.." until it went big or whatever "Fingers" was trying to say. ROD

You're not thinking of "Chains of love" are you? I've had TJOY twice now. Once a week or so after Richard spun it at Wigan and two guys came into the record bar at around 3am with a couple of boxes of 45s they'd found in the USA. It was £2. And the copy I have now which came out of a promo load in Asheville,N.C. Neither instance suggests those copies were available due to some dodgy rip-off involving Northern demand. They're legit IMO ROD

Thinking about it, it coulda been later than 73/74 as I think I got a copy of that "Cream of the crop" 45 on Bale off them too real cheap and swapped it with Richard for "Sister Lee" and "Get it baby" so it musta been whenever that record was taking off. I think it was probably Colin who told Rick and Terry. ROD

Interesting point about the Tuff stuff reaching the Black Country first. Why was that? And where did Max get that Little Joe Roman from? Terry Thomas [Francis T] who is on here may have an answer. Him and Rick Cooper went off to I think Telford [Oldies Unltd?] one day and came back with loads of US imports inc Joe Romans DJ. Maybe around 73/74. He'll probably remember. I think I bought it off them for £40. I had a copy but long time ago now so I can't recall if it was off them. Think i also bought "Landslide" DJ off them at the same time from the same load. Telford ain't that far from Midlands. I remember Old Wells shop mentioned by Andy too although I didn't get there till '79 and no Joe Matthews. He did do a nice line in sexual aids with a huge vibrator standing on a table. Im not sure if he'd turned it into a lamp! Seemed to be a procession of "ladies" coming and going. Loads of hits in US but then you'd expect that but most unexpected over here was in mid 70's when McCadden,Withers and myself got at least 40 Lenny Curtis from the back of a shop in Ashton-under-Lyne amongst other things. ROD

I go to a rock'n' roll do in Preston now and again. I'd say the age group is probably younger overall than average NS do with quite a lot of people in their 20's and 30's. The attraction appears to be the live group. The dj plays CDs and there are no 45s for sale. As you know the Beach scene, older overall I'd say, once 45 focused is now pretty much CD orientated and the dj's use laptops. Neither of those examples appear to revolve around high-priced vinyl or any notion that it's any kind of retirement fund. As you say it's meant to be fun. ROD

If you can't afford to lose what you've put into your collection then yes I'd say you'd better start selling soon although I'd hold off on the 50% sale, to start with at least. I think most people don't look at their collections as some kinda profit and loss a/c. Im not disputing that 45s can be an asset to be cashed in when something comes along of more pressing importance but to be regarded as a pension seems somewhat risky. I'd say relative values dropped say from '85-'95. My view is based on selling full-time during most of that period. That they've taken off since is again not in dispute but are prices and demand as bouyant now as two years ago? I get the impression that perhaps not but there are plenty of dealers on here who would have a view. There are plenty of sales on SS at the moment. I can't say whether these are all spare copies but again I feel that some people have to sell to buy which suggests that 45 prices are in a lot of instances out of reach of earnings. I don't want to be intrusive but it would be interesting to know how say Gene R and Quinvy are getting on with selling their collections. Are they making a profit, recouping their outlay or is it a buyer's market where choice items may sell [and maybe to a very narrow customer base] but the more standard fare is not reaching book price or the "going rate" and failing to sell. ROD

Football clubs? Er... Russians and Saudis. Americans. Stuck now as Im a part-time follower of Stockport County. No idea how that relates to Northern Soul scene. Japan? Quite a lot I would imagine. Enough for Japanese dealers to have been popping over to USA and buying and selling 45s since the 70's that I know of. Poland? Not much which is why we had a recent influx. Where is your evidence of these embryonic soul scenes in China, sub-Continent, Eastern Europe etc. There's hardly any in the USA and Europe compared to the UK now. See the recent thread. For it to be sustainable we shoulda seen a growth over here. When was the last time there was a large influx of 15-18 year olds onto the scene. It wasn't 2008. Probably 1970 and 1975. That's why the average age is 50. If it's not attractive to younger people over here why would it be so in other places where there is no scene to speak of. Anyway we are talking about an investment not whether the scene will exist in some form in ten years time. You buy a 45 now and you'll make a profit if you sell come retirement. It's ludicrous as is your rationale. As Steve L says sounds like something the financial markets would come up with and we know where that got us. ROD

when you sell 'em,and you can only profit from that once. which is why I've moved into antique boomerangs ROD

That may be true Beeks and didn't I read it on here about an increase in vinyl sales in the USA. However I don't think they're referring to £500 45s, are they? If average age is now 50 [again on here] I guess in 10 years time when most will be 60 and over these younger guys will be 30+ and have the funds available. Still not convinced though. ROD

Having difficulty with this. China? Average income around $2300[professionals] and $1500 [manual] in 2005/2006. Having paid rent,food,utilities disposable income? Can't see that as a market to offload your "investment" now or in the future. Of course you're also supposing thriving soul scene. On what evidence? I've never met anyone of Chinese ethnicity on the scene in 40 years. Sorry Andy but collectors will diminish and whilst always possibilty of younger fans I doubt they'll be hung up on vinyl. ROD

Flo-mar but I think that's publishing isn't it. Seen it on Wand 45s ROD

There's a lot of Constellation stuff that came out on both label designs. Im sure Boba will confirm. Are you sure yours is styrene with no stamps. I can't believe they booted it. ROD

Must be the boot then, as mine is vinyl with the stamps. ROD

Something like Jeff Evans on a green label springs to mind. Grandstand https://cgi.ebay.com/JEFF-EVANS-Ill-Be-Seei...Q2em118Q2el1247 Here's a copy for $5 ROD

With no stars? I've got that. They're orig with all the stamps. To be honest didn't know it was booted. real common 45 at one time. ROD

Billy knew he shoulda waited till the wind died down before scattering the wife's ashes but he was in a hurry to go out and celebrate

Im sorry Gareth, I thought you were having a go at us traditionalists by singling out Frankie Valli and implying we'd ignored Rufus Wood etc the first time around as being too funky or cutting edge. I've no idea to what Ken is referring but I would have thought he'd been around long enough to have been exposed to the funkier side of NS [if Rufus Wood is such?] that I was interested in what exactly could have overstepped his particular parameters. I think we all have limits as to what we view as coming under the Northern banner but obviously not the same for everyone. However whatever the limits can anyone deny that the thread that has continued from the beginning has been the Motownesque 60's dancer. Im guessing most people on here would like to turn up the next Salvadores. Are you trying to get me in trouble with that Tennessee Ernie reference? Late 50's/early 60's R&B is that bridge too far for me and no amount of comparison to 45s like Mickie Champion or Ray Agee[soul Town] is gonna convince me that the odd gritty mid 60's soul record is anything to do with it. What is a "trottover" ROD

I was thinking that myself,Pete. I can only assume that the "rightful" audience wasn't us who were buying, listening, and dancing to them at the time. Im also not so sure that the majority of us were looking for the next Frankie Valli. Maybe the UK collectors who had an unhealthy obssession with that kinda pop stomper having exhausted the soul releases on UK. Im sure most of us were looking for the next... Well it could be any of hundreds but let's say Salvadores. ROD

The only reaction to Mel Britt was a mad scramble to try and get a copy!! I presume you're using it as an example of an adverse reaction to the introduction of more 70's tracks when to my recollection at the Mecca there were extremely few if any complaints when the Carstairs,James Fountain, Imperial Wonders on up to Danny Hunt, Danny Reed,Lost Family etc got played as the structure of the songs were no different to those of the 60's. I'd say mutterings only began when tracks popular on the NY disco scene began to creep in [such as T-Connection, Vickie Sue Robinson] and in a lot of instances were spun in their 12" format. Even then I'd say they didn't cause that much friction until that kinda sound began to dominate the playlist. To be honest I never even equated Mel with the 70's. No idea when it was made and it certainly doesn't sound much past '71/'72 to me. ROD

I take your point Bearsy and Steve but maybe slightly different in that for the first 5 years or so until Mr. Levine 60's was the only thing we heard. Maybe 1% new releases in a throwback style such as "My man's a sweet man" or something. Anyway stop backchatting your elders and get those bedrooms tidied up. ROD

Im not saying you or Butch did play JB-style funk. I quite like it anyway. But I have heard "Think" Lynn Collins at Heywood a couple of years back which is epitome of JB style. Surprised but hey, it's a great record. ROD

I think this may be an age-gap thing. I wish I were 40!! Im assuming if you were born in '68 you missed the formative years and what actually attracted some of us to the music/scene which was basically 60's 4/4 Motownesque 45s. I guess cos that was our first exposure we tend to use that as the template for what came after. How far it deviates from that would tend to influence our thinking on hearing new genres subsequently introduced. I think you can understand that if genres such as R&B or JB-style funk are brought within this rather wide church nowadays a sense of bemusement on our part is only natural when as Pete says we already had that choice years ago but rejected it. I've no idea what got played at the 100 Club but I can't imagine it was anything too outrageous. The clips on this thread don't appear to be funk to me and unless Im mistaken "Fever" was a popular 45 around 72/73 [unless she's done another on De'Luxe apart from "See and don't see refosoul I think Paul is being a bit harsh in comparing the openess of the European scene to parts of our own. Im sure there are plenty on here who are eager to hear the new 60's discoveries whilst perhaps not being that interested in a more eclectic mix on a regular basis. I dont think the two scenes are coming from the same place. ROD

It's not a bad record but it ain't a Northern monster. If anyone does like that, then check out "Goin to see my Baby" and "Nija Walk" by them too. All on Perception. ROD