Robbk

I'll be waiting for the answer with baited breath. But I KNOW that can't be her.

"Suspicion", "Never Too Late", Lollipops, Velvelettes and those early '80s "finds" came from Rod S's tape off me. "Reconsider" was "discovered" in the early '90s from a recently auctioned, "lifted from Motown", acetate. Several others were auctioned during the early '90s, many of them had been acetates that had been in Tom DePierro's office when we were working on "From The Vaults", but Rod hadn't heard and so, hadn't taped in the early '80s.

Did you use the close-up tool to magnify the image? It looks like the real record, with the inner shadow of the thickness inside the hole. It doesn't look at all like a drawing to me.

I've looked all over The Internet. I can't find anything on Ruby-Doo Records. Does anyone that has Steve Propes' books know if he mentioned that label? Fixed! We now have an excellent discography of the label on our "Look in your Box" subforum, on a thread thread titled "Can we put together a discography of Ruby-Doo Records?"

That looks like the original. I bought mine in Chicago, when the record was out, and this one looks just like mine.

So, no one else has been able to play this back-to-back next to Brenda and Patrice Holloway cuts? No one can help me with the other Ruby-Doo releases?

Is there a way to see if that bidder has only bid on that single owner's bid items? If so, it would be hard evidence that the owner, himself is doing that, and he should be banned, or forced to lower the price of all 13 of those items, back to the previous offer before his shilling.

I knew that "You're Not My Kind" was booted at Monarch, with a 1970s Delta number in the 100,000s, and with the wrong font. But I didn't know that "If You Were Mine" was booted. It has a different label design (which I thought was the original). So, then mine must also be a boot (apparently made at a different place and time).

Were there any other L.A. Jobete-related releases on Ruby-Doo Records? If so, which producers, songwriters and artists were involved? I'd also like to see a discography of that label.

If Barbara and the Castles were actually, Brenda Holloway and The Ikettes/Mirettes, why didn't that information come out when Ady and the Ace/Kent staff did their research for "Brenda Holloway - The Early Years", and when it was learned that Brenda had fronted a group recording for A&M Records (along with Frank Wilson)? I just don't hear this voice being Brenda. This singer doesn't have that unique voice quality that is identifiable in every known Brenda Holloway recording. I think her voice sounds very much more like that of Barabara (Dedmon) Wilson. I have come to this conclusion, after listening to Wilson's "Every little Bit Hurts" and Barbara & Castles' "Stoney Face" back-to-back several times.

I really doubt that Barbara and The castles was recorded in 1966. I think it was the demo, recorded by Chester Pipkin, to present to Motown, and to use to market the song to outside producers, especially if Motown didn't choose to record it by one of their contract artists. I still think it may be Barbara Wilson. John Marascalco was a prominent L.A. R&B/Doo Wop producer from the mid 1950s through the 1960s. He was also a songwriter/producer connected to Jobete Music's L.A. Office staff, as he worked for Hal Davis' writing-producing group (Finesse Music), which published all their songs not bought by Jobete Music. He was regularly conected with The Pipkin Brothers (Chester and Gary). So, it was no random occurrence that Chester Pipkin took his production (Barbara and The Castles, to a label run by Marascalco (owner and/or A&R man for many L.A. record labels. Marascalco recorded Pat Hunt, one of Davis and Gordon's main backup singers with L.A. Joobete, and a member of The Watesians and Brenda Holloway back-up singers for Bob Keane's and Hal Davis' productions. That doesn't mean the song was recorded by them that late. it could well have been recorded as the demo in 1965, and, after the 6-month waiting period, and Motown had not recorded it, they sold recording rights to Modern, for Mary Love. After that, Pipkin could have thought he might do better with it using Barbara's version.

Paula Durante GJM 503 "If He Were Mine"/""Without My Guy" has the ZTSP number only etched (no stamp).

We KNOW that "Honky Tonk Woman" COULDN'T have been recorded as late as 1965 or 1966, for the following reasons: (1)Robert West's original Falcons had had their contract problems and quit/been fired -broke from West, and he had changed the name of another of his groups (The Playboys/Fabulous Playboys to The Falcons, in late 1964. They had been recorded as The Falcons on "Has It happened To You Yet" on Lupine, and on several cuts released on Atlantic, already in 1964. (2)DaCo Records only existed in 1961 and the very beginning of 1962. By early spring, 1962, DaCo had morphed into Thelma Records and issued releases by The Distants, Alberta Adams, Roger Wade, Will Hatcher, Magnificent Seven, Emannuel Lasky, etc. "Honky Tonk Woman" was a DaCo production, produced by Don Davis. (3)By mid 1965, Don Davis had already left Thelma for Ed Wingate's Golden World/Ric Tic/Wingate Records, and was replaced as Thelma's A&R man by Joey King Fish (and other producers, Clay MacMurray, Don Juan Mancha and James Goffphine). (4)"Honky Tonk Woman" was released on Apollo Records. Apollo Records ceased operations in mid 1962. They weren't releasing records even in 1963. let alone, 1965 or 1966.

To me, her voice tone doesn't sound like Brenda's. Everyone has a unique sound quality that is always in his or her voice, no matter how one tries to disguise it, or moves through the range of keys and notes. I don't hear Brenda's identifying sound in this voice. This song is just being sung in a style that Brenda used. It isn't close enough to even be recognisable as a Holloway.

I was around, buying R&B and Soul records all through the period, 1953-1960. I just don't remember ANYTHING like the early-'60s style "I'm Not Ashamed" before 1960-62. Nothing sounded remotely like that instrumentation in 1953-55. The same goes for the slower bluesy side, but that MIGHT have been before its time, thus possible. But not the other. The O'Jays' and Fabulous Playboys' sound from late 1961/beginning of 1962 were well ahead of their time, because of Don Davis' studio and modern production methods. He had worked with Mike McLean and Robert Bateman in Motown's studio, and knew what he was doing. "Honky Tonk Woman" could even be mistaken for a 1965 recording, but was recorded near the end of 1961, in the same session as "Forget The Past", and was released as their 2nd DaCo/Apollo issue, in early 1962.

That's DEFINITELY NOT Brenda Holloway, and I really doubt that is Patrice. This singer (Barbara) has a deeper voice than Patrice. Maybe she was Barbara Wilson (Frank Wilson's wife, who sang the demo of "Evert Little Bit Hurts" for Brenda). It was produced by Chester Pipkin, and was a Jobete song, so I assume that this was the demo version produced for Jobete, and probably used by Mary Love to prime her for her version.

The navy-blue labeled Apollo Records of the early 1950s, with Eddie Bo, Solomon Burke, The Larks, Five Royales, Casanovas, Keynotes, Cellos, etc. was the SAME company as the yellow -streamlined labeled Apollo Records of the early 1960s, with The O'Jays, Fabulous Playboys, Little Anthony, etc., and it operated continuously from 1944-1962. Their house music publisher was Bess Music, named after the owner, Bess Berman. It appeared on most of their cuts on both label styles. The newer yellow label with the black circle also reprinted many early '50s Apollo records in the early '60s, and even 1940s Gospel records by Mahalia Jackson. Both sides of the King Richard sound early '60s to me. 1202 was a Little Joe Cook that sounds more early '60s to me than early/mid '50s. I didn't see the newer, yellow circle label design until the early '60s. The late 1100s (Larks, etc.) were all originally on the original blue cameo label design, with some repressed later, in the early '60s, for the vocal group harmony oldies crowd. I think the problem with Apollo is that they screwed up their various number series. Their 100 to high 300s were a Jazz and Gospel series during the 1940s and early '50s, while their 1000-1199 series of R & B and Blues ran from 1948-1952, and their continuation R & B started started in the mid 300s with 1953, and ended at 825 in late 1962. I believe they started a new series in 1962 at 1200 that continued right after 825, as both the King Richard and Little Joe Cook sound a LOT more like 1962 than like 1955 or 1953.

As stated above, Clifton was run by the record shop owner, catering mainly to R&B/ Vocal Group Harmony (Doo Wop) market, and pressed up records from master tapes from local a capella groups, and pressed up new issues of previously-unreleased recordings from master tapes made in the '50s and early '60s. Steve Mancha could have approached Clifton with new master tapes or re-cut songs, and they would have issued them, not knowing or even knowing enough to consider whether or not Don Davis' Groovesville Music would have still owned the publishing rights to those songs.

Yes, it was THAT Sam Cooke, and it was published by his own Kags Music. Funny, that I don't remember it being sung by him or any of his SAR or Derby artists.

Sorry. I didn't have Arabia by the Royal Playboys on DoDe. I did have The Royal Playboys on DoDe 101 - "Happy Hours"/"Goodbye Bo", which had a ZTSC number in the 96700 series, which put it in spring 1964. I stated above, that if it HAD a ZTSC number in the 96700s, it would have been released in early to mid 1964. Now that we know the RCA master numbers, we know it was released in 1966 (more around the time of Judy & The Affections' "Top Ten record). I guess I thought that 1964 could have been plausible, because The Royal Playboys backed up The Dynamics on "Delsinia" in 1963, and had their other DoDe release in 1964, and maybe I got the timing confused with "Arabia" by The Delcos. on Showcase Records (e.g. that The Royal Playboys' was an instrumental version of The Delcos' song (even though it hadn't originated in Detroit). I guess I should have mentioned that DoDe 101 was the source of the ZTSC number I mentioned.

Not that I know of - or I'd have seen it and bought it. I don't think it ever came out on a US 45 (unless it came out on an oldies label in the very late '70s or '80s (when I wasn't paying attention).

It w It was titled: "The Flamingos - Their Hits then and Now". Here's a link: https://www.discogs.com/Flamingos-Their-Hits-Then-And-Now/release/3129404

So. it was recorded when The Flamingos moved from Chess(Checker) to Philips in 1965, when they re-cut more "modern" (mostly uptempo?) versions of their old hits, for their Philips LP.

What is the "serial number" of a song? I only know of record company catalogue numbers and pressing plant press run numbers. Do you mean the press run number?

Yes. That's typical of serious collectors. Even after we get into the several thousands of records, we can remember where and when we got each one. They are like "old friends".