Robbk

Wasn't the Pat Lewis version of "Geni" Goldmine release from those Groovesville masters obtained originally from Don Davis' son, that appeared on that Groovesville Masters cassette tapes set that appeared around 1990? I heard, back during the 1960s (maybe from Ron Murphy?) that Lewis, then one of Don Davis' and Lebaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions' regular artists, and one of their main background singers, was chosen to sing the demo versions of "Geni" and "When I'm In Your Arms" for Solid Hitbound's special contracted production of that record for Sussex Productions and MGM/Verve, the latter of whom already had Ms. Bryant under artist contract. That's why Pat Lewis' version was not released. MGM/Verve probably placed a specific clause in their contract with Solid Hitbound, that the latter couldn't issue a commercial version of either song on their own labels. So, Lewis' version, sung over the same general background tracks(but a different mix), was likely just the demo that Bryant used as a guide, and was never intended to be issued on Solid Hit Records. It seems that Solid Hitbound/Groovesville was contracted by Sussex(Clarence Avent) to write the songs and supervise the recording session (in Detroit, I believe at United Sound) together with George McGregor, and have Mike Terry arrange it, for MGM/Verve, who needed material and producers to produce sessions on their newly-signed artist (Terri Bryant). Verve and Sussex (primary contractors) contracted with a different production crew (George Kerr) and arranger (Richard Tee) for her other Verve release, "Everything's Wonderful", (recorded in New York). I'm guessing that Avent "discovered" Bryant, and got her the audition with Verve, which is why there are 3 different major players in this project, with a prime contractor, Avent's Sussex Productions, a subcontractor, Taylor and Davis' Solid Hitbound Productions, and Record Company MGM/Verve Records. Apparently, Avent brought Bryant to Verve, and either HE, or his subcontractor, Solid Hitbound, brought in free lance songwriter/producer, George McGregor, a session producer, and Avent didn't trust McGregor's songwriting to be good enough to produce a hit, so Davis' Groovesville was chosen to write the songs and produce the demos, and use their regular arranger, and provide the background vocalists and produce the instrumental and background singers tracks. Despite paying out more for this deluxe over-costly contract setup, with an extra middle man, Bryant's 2 records charted modestly, but didn't bring in enough sales, more than having McGregor write the songs, produce the session alone, arrange for the background singers, arrange the songs himself, or have the same, Mike Terry, arrange, and cut out Davis and Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions, altogether. I heard also (from another Detroit friend) that Pat had, indeed, been one of the background singers on the background track. I can't remember, offhand, who the other background singers were. But, they were likely other Don Davis Groovesville regulars.

I can't wait to hear what Ron said. He was a friend of mine, who taught me a lot of Detroit's music history. In addition to being a recording engineer, and record masterer, he ran a couple of his own record labels, as well. He knew a tremendous amount of the history of Motown, and once had one of the very most comprehensive collections of Motown records.

Great interview, Graham. This helps fill in the picture of how Roger and Willie got to Detroit, and why they still had connections in The South. And I always wondered whether they were related to Charley (Edwin Starr). They may be distant relatives, or, at least connected by their forebears having been unrelated fellow slaves on a single Hatcher-owned plantation. Nice that you added the Pac-3 interview, too.

Great interview. Thanks Graham. Especially getting to hear that Four Clippers Fox record I got to see in several friends collections, but was never able to find a playable copy. I knew Jay Davis was a Detroit singer, and have a few solo records by him, but didn't know he was in all those different groups that I had all those '60s records. I knew about the early 70s records, but never bought them.

It could be a lower case "e" on its side, based on what looks like a "base" on the bottom of the vertical line. But IF that were the case, the "base" of the symbol would be on its left side. We have no way of knowing what it stands for, unless we can think of which pressing plants, and record masterers in that region's company or owners or staff personal names could match what the symbol represents. It's like a shot in the dark, unless we can find some documentation that matches the information we know is concrete.

Thanks, I only meant it could represent a lot of different alphabet letters and individual symbols of record masterers or pressing plants, rather than a wide gamut like "everything in The World". If I ever say anything "personal" about any forum poster's actions, it will only be positive, in praise, not putting someone down. I wouldn't want to be "combative" and ruin the mood here, of people who come here to learn and share knowledge and bringing good music to each other.

Sorry. I didn't mean at all to be prickly. I was agreeing with you about it looking like a "q", and just adding another possibility. And I wasn't trying to disparage the idea that a recording engineer would mark a record if they cut the master.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood, thinking the post meant that it was a Tempos' record on Riley's. I have The Terrifics. I have seen a Tempos listed as 8783. And maybe that one was slated, maybe scheduled(or maybe never got that far), but never pressed up. If it WAS pressed up, it must have been an extremely small pressing and withdrawn, or possibly test pressing only. But one never knows for sure, because so many master copies and test pressings of projects that were previously unknown, or were listed on paper, but thought to have been cancelled before any pressing, have turned up many years later.

It certainly could be a lower case "q". It could be a backwards "p". It could be, or represent a LOT of different things.

Of course he etched that, because he mastered the record.

Now that you mentioned that, I DO remember seeing that type of marking, and wondering what that represented.

It looks, to me, like "C. I. ". One of Columbia's? IF the tail of the letter C's portion that crosses the vertical line represents the letter "T", THEN it is a fancy "CT", which would represent Columbia Terre Haute. However, I don't think the pressings look like those of the Terre Haute plant, not being styrene, and the label printing fonts and graphic layout doesn't look anything like what Terre Haute EVER used. So I doubt that the logo represents "CT". I can't think of any Columbia facility that is in a city that starts with the letter, "I". But, the only codes that I know of that start with the letter, "C", are Columbia's. Regarding the label and font style, I recognise them as those used by of one of the main Illinois pressing plants used by northern and central Illinois record labels, and especially independent labels. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of that plant.

It certainly could be the mastering Co., just as much as the possibility of the pressing plant. I haven't heard that recording engineers put marks in the trailout.

I've seen 8783 and 8784 listed, but never seen scans of them, nor seen physical copies of them, even in big Detroit Soul collectors' collections. So, they must have been dead rare, and only pressed up in extremely small numbers. I wonder if 8784 even got to the pressing stage. I 'm not sure if I've seen a scan of 8783, or not. So, I think that may have been pressed up. I'm SURE I've never seen anything on 8784 (other than its listing).

I'm sure that's a pressing plant marking. I've seen it on several Chicago label records. I'd bet it's a fairly small, indie, Midwestern pressing plant.

I've also never seen a non-USA-distributed demo. I assume that Bob Lee leased it to Mercury after the local Chicago sales got high enough. That was during the time when Mercury's relatively new Chicago office was looking to grab up a lot of the local talent. He did that with several of his productions. His productions were all over the map. He was one of the most prolific producers who never had a long deal with any one label. I wonder if Lee was a bit quirky, and maybe not the easiest to get along with?

That's my favourite song by him.

I don't know the exact date, or even year, that the "But It's Alright" East Coast ex-songwriting partner of Sidney Barnes, J.J. Jackson died. I remember the announcement, that seems to have been about 10-12 years ago; but as the years have been flying by at supersonic speed lately, I could be very wrong.

I never knew that. That must be the source of the biographer's error.

Sorry to hear this. To me, 83 is too young (being almost 80, myself). It seems like I remember him having still been making appearances and singing not that long ago. But the years have passed by very quickly lately.

Yes The L.A. J.J. Jackson, who sang with The Jackals, and had a Prelude release and sang for San Diego's Musertte Records was June Jackson on Imperial. The J.J. Jackson who sang "But It's Alright was an East Coaster his whole life. Apparently, the person who wrote the obituary, tried to get cute, proving how "clever" he was, by adding the bit about J.J. Jackson also having a big hit with "But It's Alright", which he "knew" from his own experience, but thought his research effort somehow missed.

Balk and Micahnik's Embee Productions had a production agreement with Big Top Records that included songwriting(Micahnik, Balk, Maron McKenzie, Tom King, Nat Turner, Johnny Mitchell, C.P. Spencer, etc.), Embee-Detroit discovered and signed artists (Del Shannon, Bobbie Smith, The Dreamgirls, Willie Jones, The Royal Jokers, Kenny Martin, Vivian Jones, Spencer Stirling (AKA C.P. Spencer), The Parakeets, and Mickey Denton). In addition, the deal included Embee producing New York artists contracted to Big Top Records (such as Don and Juan). Embee could use their usual Detroit recording studios, arrangers, and session musicians, or bring their Detroit artists to use Big Top's usual New York studios for recording. In fact, I'm wondering whether Balk referred (introduced) Big Top to Detroit Producer and recording studio owner, Ernie Stratton, as they sometimes used Stratton's recording studios to record their demos. They knew that Ernie was looking for a record label deal for his group, The Dynamics, as Big Top made a production deal with Stratton on them in 1963, during a very active time in Balk's deal with Embee, and that was the only other production deal Big Top made with Detroit production companies or labels. So, I think there's a good chance that Balk did Ernie that favour. After Embee's deal with Big Top ended in late 1963, they still dealt with New York labels, getting a deal with Mr. Peacock/Mr. Peke Records for Royal Jokers' lead, Willie Jones, and had gotten a deal for The Volumes with Old Town, and later, for The Volumes with Jubilee Records. And yes, Balk got Bobbie Smith (without The Dream Girls), her deal with American Arts, as part of a similar deal to that with Big Top, which also included production on The Volumes, Patty Jerome, and a couple other acts.

The situation with Harry Balk and Irving Micahnik labels isn't quite so simple. There was a fairly long period in which their production and marketing operated both in Detroit and New York. In Balk's and Micahnik's earliest period in the music business, their songwriting crew operated in Detroit, and they found the bulk of their singing artists in Detroit, and they did their demo recording there, as well. But they generally did their final recording of their featured singers, background singers, and instrumentals in New York. A significant portion of their early Embee Productions' final recordings during 1959-to early 1963, on their own Twirl and Storm Records, and certainly those on New York's Big Top Records, were done in New York. They even had office for Twirl and Storm Records operated in New York for a few years. They took several of their singers, like Del Shannon, Willie Jones, and Bobbie Smith and The Dream Girls to New York to record them there. Many of their Big Top recordings sound, to me like New York recordings, with simpler instrumentals on which I hear NO identifiable Detroit session players or recognisable Detroit recording studio acoustics. I think some of Bobbie Smith and The Dream Girls' final Big Top vocals were recorded in Detroit, and some in New York. During 1963, and from 1964 on, I think Embee Productions were ALL recorded in Detroit (even all their cuts issued on Pittsburgh's American Arts). "Now He's Gone" sounds a lot like a Detroit song by its writing (by Vicki Detroiters Tom King, Maron McKenzie, and Irv Micahnik). But the recording instrumental is on the fence for me. It is difficult to tell. It's simple enough trackwise, to have me believe that it was a New York recording. And I don't hear any identifiable sounds of Detroit session players on it. It very well might be a New York recording, but it also could be a Detroit recording. One thing I CAN say is that the location of its recording CAN'T be determined by assuming that ALL Big Top releases' cuts were recorded in New York, because Big Top operated in New York; and that all Harry Balk and Irv Micahnik's Embee Productions' recordings were recorded in Detroit, because those men were originally from Detroit, and resided their during their partnership, that ALL their productions were recorded in Detroit. So, I wouldn't want to bet my house on whether the final recordings on these 2 cuts on this release were recorded either in New York or in Detroit. It might even have been split, with The Girls' vocals recorded in Detroit, and the instrumentals in New York. Given that it has been written that this was recorded in New York, IF I had a gun to my head, I might well bet that the instrumentals were recorded in New York, and Bobbie and The Dream Girls' vocals were recorded in Detroit. But really, there's no way of knowing for sure unless we can find written documentation, or a recorded interview with a person who worked with Embee at the time (Company Partner, songwriter, arranger, recording engineer, etc.).

DEFINITELY a Boot!

Happy Christmas, Chanukkah and New Year to Everyone!