Robbk

That's good enough for me. Bob is a long-time friend of mine, and nobody knows more about Chicago Soul than he does. I guess the reason Don didn't write songs for Wise World, and didn't produce records and run sessions for them is that he was busy working for Chess all through Wise World's run. I guess he and Phil thought they could make some extra money by using their connections with DJs and distributors to take other independent producers' productions, and pay for their pressing, and market them to get some local and regional hits. This was very unlike how he worked at his Boss Records (partnered with Ric Williams), Flash Records (partnered with Flash McKinley), and Clay Records (partnered with a financier), in which HE was chief A&R man and producer, and each of those companies wrote their own songs, published their own music, and produced their own recording sessions. Actually I was just looking through my copy of Bob's book to find that page. I couldn't remember if he had gone into any depth on Wise World. So, thanks for saving me some more work. 🙂

It DOES say there that Don started the label. But that doesn't make any sense to me. Neither his name, nor any of his music publishers' names even appears ONCE on ANY of their releases. I seem to remember seeing a couple other Wise World releases, both of which also are unrelated to any of these others. There are 2 records related to Eddie and Mary Silvers, and 2 that are loosely related to each other one to Joshie Armstead, and one to Ric Williams/Bridges/Knight/Eaton (the 2 of which had worked together at a few Chicago labels). But Williams/Armstead never worked with Silvers. This smacks to me as a label owned by a non-music industry wealthy person, who leased tapes from various small independent producers, who wanted badly to get a record out fast, already had recorded it, but didn't have the extra money to get it pressed up. And so they leased their tape, hoping it would get airplay and some sales action, and that they could get a major label to pick it up. I can't EVER remember even ONE instance in which Don Clay was solo owner, or partner in a record label in which he was not the man running the label, or co-running it as the top A&R man and top producer, or one of 2 or 3 top producers (and getting label credit for himself, songwriting credits, and his music publisher was either his alone, or a partnership between him and his other label-owning partner or partners). He just didn't operate the way Wise World seemingly was run. And it also seems strange that I was around town then, and didn't hear that Don was the owner. Why did I never hear who the owner was? Why did I never hear who the head producer and A & R man was? Why didn't I know who the in-house songwriting staff was? Or where they regularly recorded their sessions? Or who their regular arranger(s) was (or were)? Because there were none of any of those people. Don Clay didn't HIRE Eddie Silvers to produce a session for him, and didn't hire Jo Armstead and Bridges, Knight and Eaton to work for him; and IF he hired Phil Orsi to cut a record on himself, you can bet he'd have put his own name on the record as executive producer, or co-producer, if Phil insisted on getting producer credit. The whole operation is just too disjointed. It seems to have been mainly a "paper organisation". Therefore, I am still skeptical, and believe that that "information" placed on Discogs came from hearsay, and long-time false "corroboration" by having been copied and used hundreds of times on The Internet. I would feel better about that bit of "information" if I read or heard it come from an interview of someone in the industry who had worked with Don, done by someone like Bob A. or another trustworthy professional interviewer. Personally, not only am I skeptical about Don Clay having started that label and having been the solo owner or part owner; I am even skeptical that he had any connection to it, until I see evidence to the contrary. I would bet that evidence is sitting in the recorded interviews on "Sitting In The Park". I remember that Bob interviewed Eddie Silvers (or someone close to him), and The Antennas, and some of the people who worked with him at One-derful, as well as people who worked with Ric Williams, and at least one of Bridges, Knight, and Eaton. But, before I spend many hours re-listening to all those interviews, maybe someone else on this thread can point me to some more concrete proof. I am not saying that Discogs is not a reliable source for what they print. They are a great resource for information. But, I have seen a LOT of things in print that originally came from conjecture, then turned to hearsay by someone credible, who was unaware of the original source.

I bought mine when it was out (2nd of 4 press runs), and it had no hiss. I found another copy in a thrift store, with slight wear (3rd pressing). That one also had no hiss.

I never was under the impression that Don Clay owned Wise World. That label seemed to have pressed up productions from unrelated indie producers from all over The City. I wonder if Wise World was just owned by a wealthy businessman who wanted to get into the music business, and just leased productions from independent producers, hoping a few of them would hit it big. They didn't seem to have a single A&R man running the label. Can we get together a discography of that label, and scans of all the releases, so we can try to patch its history together?

So Orsi may have been a partner in Flash, and had a 1/3 ownership in the tape. In any case, Clay and McKinley probably knew about it and didn't mind.

Maybe Orsi knew Don Clay, and/or Flash McKinley, and asked them if they had any extra background tracks he could use to make a new record, and he couldn't afford to pay for a recording session, and didn't want to share the profits with a label owner (wanted it to come out on his own label), and could write the words to an existing tune (but wasn't any good at writing music), and they, or one of them needed cash and could take in needed money, with Corsi singing new words over it, there would be little chance of anyone recognising it as "Mr. Shy". They knew there was little chance of Orsi getting a monster hit with it. Orsi could also have gotten it from Marshall Thompson, who had been the arranger, and may have ended up with a tape copy (it may even be an alternate take or preliminary mix of it. He could possibly have gotten it from a friend who worked in the recording studio where it was made (One-derful's, Ter-Mar (Chess'), or Universal); and it may have been unlabled, and no one knew what it was, so they said the worker could have it. Eventually, recording studios toss out unlabled, unclaimed old tapes, because they need the shelf space to store things from on-going jobs. And, so, the friend sold it to Corsi to make a little money, and help out his friend. Didn't Ed Cody work at Chess' Ter-Mar Studio before founding his own United Technique Studio? Cody may have had the extra preview mix left over and a few years after "Mr. Shy", let Corsi use it. There are lots of possibilities.

I bought the 2nd and 3rd issues. The first one I got (2nd issue) at United Distributors for 50¢ (I had a friend who worked there, so I bought all my new records wholesale), and found the second one in a thrift shop, maybe a year later. I was still attending university in L.A., so, only returned to Chicago during Thanksgiving week, Christmas Break, Spring Break or early June. But, I do remember "Mr. Shy" on heavy rotation on WVON, and selling well in shops when I returned, and it hadn't made the radio nor been in shops in L.A. Based on my flipping through hundreds of thousands of 45s between 1967 and 1972, I would guess that the 4th issue (with "Flash" in larger font) is, by far the rarest, with the first issue (with "Records" lined up to the beginning of The "F" in "Flash" being the 2nd rarest.

Okay then.... So the singer on this record is NOT the Chicago Blues belter, Gloria Shannon! Then, I have no idea who it is. The voice is not really distinct enough to recognise.

As I remember it, Flash Records was owned by Don Clay and William "Flash" McKinley. Vapac Music was owned by The Leaner Brothers (George and Ernie), who owned One-derful, Ma-V-lus, M-Pac, and Toddlin' Town Records, as well as United Record Distributors. Naturally, when Clay produced the record, rather than go directly to his bosses at One-derful, to make a distribution deal, he would first have a small press run to give some to local DJs, and to hawk to the regular R&B/Soul record shops, so he could get airplay, and early sales, to be in a better bargaining position, to get a better regional or national distribution deal with The Leaner's United Record Distributors. Thus, the first pressing wouldn't include Vapac Music, because The Leaners had no part in the record's early action. The label misprint initiated a new pressing (which probably would have occurred, anyway, due to initial good reviews, lots of airplay on Chicagoland radio stations, and early sales to stores. Once the distribution deal with United was made, all, or a good chunk of The Leaners' portion would come in the form of the royalties payments for Vapac Music's share of the publication rights. I think Vogue Music was co-owned by Clay and McKinley. If not, then by Clay, alone. Clay had a good relationship with most of the key Chi-Town DJs, because he had known most of them through The Leaners' uncle, legendary Chicago R&B DJ, Al Benson.

Billy's "Mr. Shy" is one of my favourite songs.

A fine job of deduction, piecing the pieces of the puzzle together. Your scenario outline above jibes with my memory. The first self-distributed issue of the record only within the City of Chicago and to it's local radio stations' DJs started to get airplay in February 1969. Soon, certainly no later than March, "Ain't Got No Problems" was being played, and records were being sold in the stores. I returned to Chi-Town on school break in late March or early April, to hear the record on WVON, see that my cousin and some friends had it, and bought a copy, which had a catalogue number of 3001, following along after the establishment of a label catalogue number series starting with Drake and The En-Solids' 3000. The rushing to have new press runs out resulted in the reversion back to using the pressing code. It also fits in with my theory that Alteen expanded to the two storefront buildings from initially having one, rather than starting with renting two, and giving one up through lack of funds. Self distributing to local stores, at first wouldn't have drained their coffers, because they were probably getting wholesale record price back in cash by selling directly to the stores. After the record started selling big locally, Alteen would have needed extra space to store records, take on a few more workers, hire a receptionist and give her a desk, and give the office a "professional look", because they were now a viable "Record Company". Usually, such labels started out as a husband/wife/and best friend "hobby" managed from the couple's home (the way Al-Tog started) - then, after their first record that hits sells well locally - and cash is rolling in from direct wholesale sales to record shops, they open a small office (as Al-Tog did). IF they get a regional or national hit, they get a national distribution deal, and need to look professional, so they need to expand to a larger office, sometimes even in a more prestigious location. Looking at all these different labels allowed me to notice that legendary Chicago singer, Billy McGregor (misspelled as McGreagor)(Cousin of Detroit drummer/producer, George McGregor), was also involved in Bill Meeks' tiny label, in addition to Marshall Thompson, of The Chi-Lites, who had been a drummer before his group hit big, and was an arranger and probably participated in songwriting with the label.

Yes, I meant WLS in Chicago. But, actually, it got some plays for at least a short time, but I don't think it charted.

This matches what I remembered watching the progress of the record in real time. Most of the Alteen copies I saw were well-played, while the Chess copies were mostly mint. I never saw them in people's houses. People I knew had all bought the Alteen. Many of the Chess copies we see now probably came from boxes that stayed in Chess' offices, or in distributors' warehouses, and never got to stores.

I knew Sunday made it to WLS. That St. Louis KATZ survey is interesting, with DJ, "Bob B.Q.", "Boys Will Be Boys" by the Fidels making #4, The Corner Boys, and "The Friends of Destination" doing a cover of "Going In Circles" (must have been a St. Louis local "imposter group". 😁

I'm sure Meeks had been selling some to a distributor in Milwaukee to handle his Alteen issue before Chess took over, or else had his own workers drive up carloads to try to sell to store owners, just like Berry and Smokey used to do in Chicago, Toledo, Akron, South Bend, Fort Wayne and Indianapolis, with the first Tamla records. Milwaukee is only 90 miles from The Loop (so, about 98 miles (1.5 hour drive from Alteen's office)). Yes, The Chess Brothers owned WNOV, too. L&P Broadcasting Corp, stood for Leonard and Phil. The DJs on WVON were also called "The Good Guys". I knew it charted and sold well in "Chicagoland" (Cook County, Illinois, and Lake County, Indiana (eastward to Gary). So, I would have guessed it would have also charted in Milwaukee.

I doubt this VERY, VERY much. All the local stores who re-ordered from Alteen, or newly ordered from Alteen also received a large portion of their record stock from Chess' distributor. They always wanted to have a good relationship with them, because they probably got 1/3 to 1/2 of their records from them. I'd bet the farm that the deal with Chess allowed Alteen to continue to sell in "Chicagoland". It was a similar situation to the Magnum/MGM deal for Charles Perry's "Move On Love". Magnum continued to sell it in L.A., and MGM did nothing with it nationally. Only, Chess pressed up a lot more of Sunday's than MGM did of Perry's, because they were a Soul label, who already had the market knowledge and connections, and expected it to do more than it did.

I, myself, and all my friends bought Alteen copies. I didn't get a Chess copy until I found one in a thrift store. The record stores where I hung out always had stock of the Alteen issues, and continued re-ordering them.

I was in Chicago partly during the time of the record's run, and for parts of the year following. I always remember seeing many, many more Alteen copies than Chess. Alteen never stopped selling theirs, and had it pressed several times. The Chess deal was made to get NATIONAL distribution. But the record did nothing outside the 3-state lakefront area (Lake County, Indiana, City of Chicago and suburbs (Cook County), and greater Milwaukee), all areas Alteen could service (by car).

It absolutely could be. I still remember seeing new store stockers of the Alteen showing up in stores long after I saw the first Chess pressings in some stores. The lease agreement may have stipulated that Alteen could continue to supply Alteen's previous client stores who reorder; or it could have stipulated that Alteen could continue to sell to stores within The City of Chicago, or throughout "Chicagoland"(Cook County, Illinois, and Lake County, Indiana).

Ha! Ha! Alteen had a group called "The Suburbs"? Was that from the start of the decline in prejudice, and The Black Community's finally being allowed to leave the confines of The South Side and West Side of Chicago, and move into Harvey??? 🤣🤣🤣

The promotional stamps being on 9631 makes it seem that 9631 MAY have been first. But 3000/press 8625 is a LOT closer to 8652 than 9631. So, why would they start their movement from press code numbers (Buster Benton and Robert Taylor), and then change to a different record number series (3000), and THEN go back to 9631 (a press plant code #) almost a year later in 1969 (8625 and 8652 were 1968), and THEN press the 2nd press run going back to the new record # series? I find it interesting that Alteen didn't make a special DJ issue press run for 9631, as Drake and The En-Solids' 8652 had special DJ copies run with "Radio Station Copy" printed under their label name.

As far as I knew (or thought I knew) the 8600-9600 number series was from their pressing plant number code, and the 3000 series was the record number. But the printer reversed them on some issues (press runs). Notice that the 9000 series of "Ain't Got No Problems" listed Alteen's address as 8204-8208 South Stony Island Avenue (which, incidentally, was only about 1 mile from where I and my family lived when we first moved to Chicago (South Chicago District) in 1959. My father's store was about 2 miles the other side of where Alteen was (on Halsted St. (on The South Side). I remember that corner of 82nd Street and Stony Island, it had a shop at 8202, another at 8204, and one at 8208. I left for L.A. in Fall 1965, and only spent the summer in Chicago. But, the label on the right lists only 8208 as the address. That makes it appear that Alteen either expanded from 8208, adding 8204's adjacent building (between the 2 press runs), or started with both buildings, and dropped their lease for the other one because of rising overhead for pressing new records (2nd pressing of "Ain't Got No Problems", and, possibly also the first pressing of The Superbs' (both of which sold decently locally). My guess is that the 3001 pressing was first, because THAT is the one I bought when it was out (during Spring Break, or the beginning of Summer of 1969). And it was the one which must have sold more, because I've seen hundreds of that in the record stores and at the distributors, and I've seen very few of the 9600 pressing in all my years. My guess is that they started off with the one store front, and took over the adjacent one when the former tenant's lease came up, because they had a fair amount of income coming in from sales of Drake & The En-Solids, and Sunday's first press run, and perhaps had signed The Superbs by then, and had plans to release a record by them in a few months, and , based on their talent, thought they would bring in lots of sales . That would indicate that the 3000 series was the first release, and 9600 was several months later. But that is all conjecture. It could be the exact opposite, that they started big, and had to cut down their space because their distributors weren't paying them (as was common in that industry-I learned that the hard way), and they couldn't come up with the rent for two storefront buildings. Your list above has 9631 first, and 3000 below it. Do you have exact release dates for each press run?

During 50 years of digging through literally millions of 45s and LPs I've never seen another one.

Now I remember! It was Jack DuPree who lived first in Berlin, and later, in Hamburg, for many years. It was Albert King who lived near me, in Oldenburg, for several years. Both of them appeared in venues in both Bremen and Hamburg.

Gloria Scott was from The San Francisco Bay Area, and appeared in both The Bay Area and Los Angeles Area. So, I would guess that her Tonettes were the same people as the L.A. group that recorded for Modern Records. But I would also assume that THAT group would have had NOTHING to do withThe Tonettes from the east coast, who recorded for Cameo-Parkway sub labels and ABC-Paramount, and small New York labels.