Just finished watching another part of the soul deep series on bbc2 I couldnt help ask myself why Gil Scot Heron was a notable absentee - Heron's social comment on black America was more hardhitting and meanignful than anything James Brown and co did , he postioned himslef as a real storyteller the eyes on the streets and just didnt't lend or sell his records on the back of catchy one liners like Mr Brown- Gil Scot Heron was the real gospel truth and anyone who has listened to the Pieces of the man album will almost certainly testify - RANT OVER

Edited June 4, 200519 yr by Richard Bergman

Just finished watching another part of the soul deep series on bbc2 I couldnt help ask myself why Gil Scot Heron was a notable absentee - Heron's social comment on black America was more hardhitting and meanignful than anything James Brown and co did , - RANT OVER

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Good point here Richard, I did enjoy tonights program having only seen last weeks one as comparison, because I thought its linking to the political times was very relevant to the music it was talking about and quite well done. Generally lots of artists we could say they should include but BBC probably have a get out in they are not that mainstream so not much material available, but you are right thats not the case with GSH, who like you I love as an artist.

However, overall from the 2 programs I have seen I think its a really worthwhile show, could be better to be perfect but still think its a minor miracle that this is on mainstream tv and is getting to people who dont know or love the music like we do.

The footage of James Carr last week was worth the whole series, truly amazing.

Cheers

Jock

Good point here Richard, I did enjoy tonights program having only seen last weeks one as comparison, because I thought its linking to the political times was very relevant to the music it was talking about and quite well done. Generally lots of artists we could say they should include but BBC probably have a get out in they are not that mainstream so not much material available, but you are right thats not the case with GSH, who like you I love as an artist.

However, overall from the 2 programs I have seen I think its a really worthwhile show, could be better to be perfect but still think its a minor miracle that this is on mainstream tv and is getting to people who dont know or love the music like we do.

The footage of James Carr last week was worth the whole series, truly amazing.

Cheers

Jock

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Yeah certainly the archived footaged they've dug out has been first class, sometimes though you'd just wish them to dig a bit deeper.

Just finished watching another part of the soul deep series on bbc2 I couldnt help ask myself why Gil Scot Heron was a notable absentee -

Not just the 'revolution' that wasn't televised then !!

You don't get many Gil Scot Heron puns at 12am on a saturday nite

Richard all fair comments, but i guess all of us could wax lyrical about missed opportunitys, for me to cover "Funk" and not mention one of the greatest female wailers of all time........MARVA WHITNEY....is of course Sacrilege.

see ya at the weekend..........let's hear some real SOUL

I'm a huge fan of Gil's but can see why he wasn't in it, because he didn't sell many records and isn't known by the man in the street. I think they chose great artists last night and just about got it right. Sly was superb, I remember Dance To The Music as a new release, Oh for anything half as exciting to be recorded now.

There was that great GSH documentary about 9months ago that catered for pervs like us. And footage and photos etc are always harder to find than the records.

Anyone lend me a copy of the Southern Soul one and the first in the series? The gospel footage in the second one was incredible.

I'm a huge fan of Gil's but can see why he wasn't in it, because he didn't sell many records and isn't known by the man in the street. I think they chose great artists last night and just about got it right. Sly was superb, I remember Dance To The Music as a new release, Oh for anything half as exciting to be recorded now.

There was that great GSH documentary about 9months ago that catered for pervs like us. And footage and photos etc are always harder to find than the records.

Anyone lend me a copy of the Southern Soul one and the first in the series? The gospel footage in the second one was incredible.

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Ady I have the Southern Soul one (On Video) and I think the first one at my dear mums (say think as she is legendary at taping wrong channel etc). Can lend you them next week at Cleethorpes, dont have the ability to copy them so would like them back at your leisure.

Appreciate not emailed you yet about next week, definitley coming, only me but doubt about my arrival time/day, will mail you by Monday!

Cheers

Jock

Still not convinced re the GSH, my understanding was he fairly well known in the big ciites but must admit not sure enough to disagree with you probably having better facts (and memory despite your extra years)

Cheers, that's kind of you.

Gil's highest chart entry was #15 R&B and he didn't have one pop hit, I know he was mainly LPs but it's reflective of his lack of fame in the US.

All I gained from this episode is that funk is shit. It got to Parliament and I switched it off.

It's like watcxhing a series about the development of Jamaican music....mento, r&b, ska, rocksteady, reggae but then you get to 1970 and it' goes all rootsy and the tv goes off.

All I gained from this episode is that funk is shit.  It got to Parliament and I switched it off.

It's like watcxhing a series about the development of Jamaican music....mento, r&b, ska, rocksteady, reggae but then you get to 1970 and it' goes all rootsy and the tv goes off.

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I just love you obstinate refusal to own even a modicum of taste

I just love you obstinate refusal to own even a modicum of taste   

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It's like watching your football team who one minute are league champions then they slide down the divisions ending up bottom of thepile. Thats what I feel when I watch the history of soul music.

I'm also a bit concerned that you seem to note everything I ever post on here and come back with some cuntish reply about how your tastes are far superior to mine.

I always wondered what it would like to have a stalker, now I've got two!

It's like watching your football team who one minute are league champions then they slide down the divisions ending up bottom of thepile.  Thats what I feel when I watch the history of soul music.

I'm also a bit concerned that you seem to note everything I ever post on here and come back with some cuntish reply about how your tastes are far superior to mine.

I always wondered what it would like to have a stalker, now I've got two!

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Whatever :graynone:

like i really would be bothered to do that, bit paranoid this afternoon aren't we

Whatever :graynone:

like i really would be bothered to do that, bit paranoid this afternoon aren't we 

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Not paranoid, there's proof all over the site

Get real Pete

Are you saying that i shouldn't respond to anything you post ever ever half of which is tongue in cheek as well you know

It's like watching your football team who one minute are league champions then they slide down the divisions ending up bottom of thepile.  Thats what I feel when I watch the history of soul music.

I'm also a bit concerned that you seem to note everything I ever post on here and come back with some cuntish reply about how your tastes are far superior to mine.

I always wondered what it would like to have a stalker, now I've got two!

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Get real Pete

Are you saying that i shouldn't respond to anything you post ever ever half of which is tongue in cheek as well you know

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No, do what you like

p.s. but less frequently

Edited June 5, 200519 yr by Pete-S

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All I gained from this episode is that funk is shit. 

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Funk is a bit crap. Some of the James Brown stuff is okay. Calling him the Godfather of soul though is bollocks.

You do seem to get quoted and replied to quite a little bit Pete. (I'm not stalker #3 btw). Think it may have to do with your not backward in coming forward stance. Don't change it though for Christ's sake.

Funk is a bit crap. Some of the James Brown stuff is okay.  Calling him the Godfather of soul though is bollocks.

You do seem to get quoted and replied to quite a little bit Pete. (I'm not stalker #3 btw). Think it may have to do with your not backward in coming forward stance.  Don't change it though for Christ's sake.

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See I knew I wasn't paranoid

Yes you are

thought it was good last night ........... loved everyone's reaction when they mentioned george clinton.

i'm no fan of parliament but its nice to see a series that puts it al in chronological order.

Love the funk though ......... and JB could get almost any dancefloor going I reckon. would have been nice to see some marva whitney, bobby byrd etc etc ..... but we could all list hundreds of lesser known artists. I think the series is great.

Cheers, that's kind of you.

Gil's highest chart entry was #15 R&B and he didn't have one pop hit, I know he was mainly LPs but it's reflective of his lack of fame in the US.

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Ady - I you don't get a copy at Cleethorpes - I'll bring them down to the 100 Club on the 25th - got 2nd (Gospel) and 3rd Episodes (Sound of Young America) on VHS.

Missed last night's episode (Ain't it Funky) but Brett echoes my sentiments. I love rare groove and funk for the female artists that came out of it - Lynn, Vicki, Betty and Marva - surprised they weren't covered.

The footage in this series has been fantastic - I particularly loved the clips on the "Gospel Highway".

BBC have archived some clips here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/souldeep/interviews/1/

oops - Al forgot to log out last night ....

Fae Kolla

As I mentioned before, you can download the entire series using any bit torrent client, takes about 90 minutes per episode.

DO NOT FEAR TECHNOLOGY, EMBRACE IT

Anyone lend me a copy of the Southern Soul one and the first in the series? The gospel footage in the second one was incredible.

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I also thought the second episode focusing on gospel was the probably the best of the series in terms of being informative even for soulies. I never really thought about gospel before, i knew it was the foundation for soul along with blues of course, but never considered it in it's own right.

I wonder if some recordings of those harmony quartets exist, they were awesome. Think i'll pay ebay a visit on the off chance.

Bloody hell i'm going backwards instead of forwards...

M.

Hipshaker, Bobby Byrd was there singing alongside JB on one or two of the tracks, he was the echo voice. Time was limited so they concentrated on the main areas.

One of my mates at cricket today (5 wickets and I'm bladdered) pointed out that JB's stuff was good up to Sex Machine and Say It Loud, but when it just got into a riff like Make It Funky it lost a lot of soul. All in all though he's a genius and like Bobby Bland or Little Johnny Taylor is a black American's soul singer more than a white European's. Discuss, if you can be arsed.

One of my mates at cricket today (5 wickets and I'm bladdered) pointed out that JB's stuff was good up to Sex Machine and Say It Loud, but when it just got into a riff like Make It Funky it lost a lot of soul. All in all though he's a genius and like Bobby Bland or Little Johnny Taylor is a black American's soul singer more than a white European's. Discuss, if you can be arsed.

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I agree with this and mentioned this in the thread following last weeks program. I believe that a lot of original northern soulers have a problem relating to both R&B and Funk because its too black.

When you ask lovers of R&B or Funk what it is they like about the music they often describe them as Harsh, Raw or Heavy - though in a positive way. In some ways these music forms show true Soul of America at the time, because they summised the reality of black America for a lot of these artists.

Both R&B and Funk are structured on the rhythm of sex and can be traced back to original African rhythms. Often the lyrics are direct and explicit and were made with the knowledge that they would never be heard by a white audience, the opposite of a lot of soul made during the sixties.

I've often thought how much feeling some singers sang the songs with and wondered how much of it is personal experience? Like they pointed out in the Gospel episode - A lot of the singers on the circuit might well have sung the lords word - but by any stretch of the imagination, did not live by it!

I'm not knocking 60's soul music at all because I truly love it - but my heart is with the rawer sound because it what I believe is the true soul of Black America however negative, sexist or primitive it sounds. Northern Soul's altered the perception of Soul music forever - but it is a white European perspective on it.

I remember Dance To The Music as a new release, Oh for anything half as exciting to be recorded now.

Come on Ady, get with the picture! D-A-P-T-O-N-E..... DAPTONE!!!!!!

A UK hip hop outfit have recently recorded an amazing northern soul record as well, fooking amazing!!! You have to hear it to believe it. A shame it's unreleased though.

Would I be called a sceptic to hazard a guess that if anything as exciting as "Dance To The Music" was recorded today, the northern soul scene would be the last place to play it? After all, if it's not recorded in the 60s it can't be "northern soul", can it? I'll be leaving now....

Come on Ady, get with the picture! D-A-P-T-O-N-E..... DAPTONE!!!!!!

A UK hip hop outfit have recently recorded an amazing northern soul record as well, fooking amazing!!! You have to hear it to believe it. A shame it's unreleased though. 

Would I be called a sceptic to hazard a guess that if anything as exciting as "Dance To The Music" was recorded today, the northern soul scene would be the last place to play it? After all, if it's not recorded in the 60s it can't be "northern soul", can it?   I'll be leaving now....

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I'd play it if it was that good. Send me a copy.

Ady

I'm not knocking 60's soul music at all because I truly love it - but my heart is with the rawer sound because it what I believe is the true soul of Black America however negative, sexist or primitive it sounds. Northern Soul's altered the perception of Soul music forever - but it is a white European perspective on it.

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Keb and I still need those acetates.

I'm not knocking 60's soul music at all because I truly love it - but my heart is with the rawer sound because it what I believe is the true soul of Black America however negative, sexist or primitive it sounds. Northern Soul's altered the perception of Soul music forever - but it is a white European perspective on it.

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Simon, I think you're bending a few facts to justify your theory. There are a few sentences I'd take issue with.

Of course rhythm is a huge part of black music but to say pre-68 the influence was from white music is wrong. Black Americans started jazz and Rock and Roll and that's where all the best pop music came from.

And no Nat King Cole and Sam Cooke weren't mainly admired because they made it, lots of blacks made it through sport or music mainly; it was their incredible voices which literally hit a chord with the audience.

Most black people could afford record players, they were poor but not that poor, I would guess many had them in the 40s and virtually all by the 50s. Blues records sold in their millions. Bobby Bland's records sold more for his singing style than the beat which is far from funk in most cases.

I agree that post MLK it was a different black attitude and face but that doesn't mean any of the previous black music was pandering to the whites. Some was but most crossed over because it was such great music and a lot of white kids got access to it and finally were in an enlightened enough time to go out , buy it and enjoy it. For example The Spinners 'Could It Be I'm Falling In Love' was made in the funk era and sold to as many black people as JB's hits, because it was so great that it crossed over to pop whereas some of James' didn't doesn't make it any less black.

As for musicians of course the "blacker" sound seemed to come out of the southern studios like Stax and Fame and those guys had more white musicians than Tamla and Philly ever had.

I'd better go and sort some caravans out now quick!

Simon, I think you're bending a few facts to justify your theory. There are a few sentences I'd take issue with.

Of course rhythm is a huge part of black music but to say pre-68 the influence was from white music is wrong. Black Americans started jazz and Rock and Roll and that's where all the best pop music came from.

And no Nat King Cole and Sam Cooke weren't mainly admired because they made it, lots of blacks made it through sport or music mainly; it was their incredible voices which literally hit a chord with the audience.

Most black people could afford record players, they were poor but not that poor, I would guess many had them in the 40s and virtually all by the 50s. Blues records sold in their millions. Bobby Bland's records sold more for his singing style than the beat which is far from funk in most cases.

I agree that post MLK it was a different black attitude and face but that doesn't mean any of the previous black music was pandering to the whites. Some was but most crossed over because it was such great music and a lot of white kids got access to it and finally were in an enlightened enough time to go out , buy it and enjoy it. For example The Spinners 'Could It Be I'm Falling In Love' was made in the funk era and sold to as many black people as JB's hits, because it was so great that it crossed over to pop whereas some of James' didn't doesn't make it any less black.

As for musicians of course the "blacker" sound seemed to come out of the southern studios like Stax and Fame and those guys had more white musicians than Tamla and Philly ever had.

I'd better go and sort some caravans out now quick!

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Sorry Ady I didn't mean that black music pre -68 took its influence from White Music - What I meant was, a lot of the music made from the early to late sixties, was influenced by the white dollar. You know better than most that nearly all people who ran labels, were entrepreneurs who dreamed of tapping into this market. This surely had a massive impact on the sound? I do not see this as pandering to the whites - simply a desire to exploit their wealth.

I'm not denying that Nat or Sam reached so many through their stupendous talents - however I still think that if you dig deep into the psyche of black America during this period - It was their stature and power, as wealthy Americans who could command respect (all be it from behind gritted smile), that they admired most.

OK - I'm wrong on my assumption of wealth and the material goods it brought - But I'm also very much aware of the reluctance of many family's to allow the playing of street music on it.

At the end of the day great music is great music and there are thousands of great crossover tracks, but by the time the early seventies turned into the mid seventies a lot of the people running the major black labels had become just as corporate as the white guys running their labels. They had lost their identity in the eyes of many of the youth. These after all were the embryonic years of HipHop a direct reaction against the music being made by these majors. I personally love 70's Soul, but there is no denying that by this period the genre had lost most of its energy.

Too hectic to reply, it sounds like a Saturday afto discussion at the Cleethorpes bar to me.

I found it bizarre that the whole series has been chronological, and Saturday's episode covered James Brown, Sly Stone, George Clinton and then basically went...

"In the 80s this forgotten music was picked up by Public Enemy etc. and hip-hop was born. See you next week for Mary J Blige and urban R&B"

Err, what happened from the mid 70s to the mid 80s? Actually, don't answer that...

I agree with this and mentioned this in the thread following last weeks program. I believe that a lot of original northern soulers have a problem relating to both R&B and Funk because its too black.

When you ask lovers of R&B or Funk what it is they like about the music they often describe them as Harsh, Raw or Heavy - though in a positive way. In some ways these music forms show true Soul of America at the time, because they summised the reality of black America for a lot of these artists.

Both R&B and Funk are structured on the rhythm of sex and can be traced back to original African rhythms. Often the lyrics are direct and explicit and were made with the knowledge that they would never be heard  by a white audience, the opposite of a lot of soul made during the sixties.

I've often thought how much feeling some singers sang the songs with and wondered how much of it is personal experience? Like they pointed out in the Gospel episode - A lot of the singers on the circuit might well have sung the lords word - but by any stretch of the imagination, did not live by it! 

I'm not knocking 60's soul music at all because I truly love it - but my heart is with the rawer sound because it what I believe is the true soul of  Black America however negative, sexist or primitive it sounds.  Northern Soul's altered the perception of Soul music forever - but it is a white European perspective on it.

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===

I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself mate, Del x