All,

 

I have posted the following track (MP3 & label JPG) in the vain hope that someone can enlighten me about this 45.

 

This record is not listed anywhere that I can find, it is on a label with no company name and is on vinyl. The B side is 'I Love You'

 

This is my hunch,

 

I think this maybe an 'incomplete' work by Billy Butler who has had this 45 pressed somewhere in Chicago with the purpose of trying to perhaps 'sell' this vibe to another recording company. Enter Otis Leaville who has a record by the same title (A & B side) on Dakar but, with similar but different lyrics and tune.

 

Was it something that Anderson had made for the Belgium market? What year was it made? I dont know, but suffice to say if anyone can help me solve this conundrum, I would really appreciate it. I would love to know who the female vocal is singing with him or indeed is Billy Butler!!!??? Questions, questions, questions!!??

 

thanks in advance - Al

Billy Butler - I Need You

 

interesting. i can't listen at work, but it doesn't look like a chicago press? looks like a rite press maybe? there were also more than one person named billy butler recording, does it sound like him?

Hi Boba,

It definitely sounds like him. The female vocalist is awesome too! The B side 'I Love You' is totally different and basically 'easy listening' which is odd. I can send you an MP3 of that side too if it helps. The A side is absolutely sensational IMHO and grows the more you play it. Let me know what you think when uve heard it!

Thanks for your reply - Al

interesting. i can't listen at work, but it doesn't look like a chicago press? looks like a rite press maybe? there were also more than one person named billy butler recording, does it sound like him?

I can see what you mean about it being a Rite press but was that not Philly based? and if it was Billy Butler, I fancied he would have access to some of the local pressing plants in the South of Chicago hence no particular label unless of course it actually is 'BILLY BUTLER' records (if you get my drift).

Dont you just love all this supposition!!???

Cheers Al

I can see what you mean about it being a Rite press but was that not Philly based? and if it was Billy Butler, I fancied he would have access to some of the local pressing plants in the South of Chicago hence no particular label unless of course it actually is 'BILLY BUTLER' records (if you get my drift).

Dont you just love all this supposition!!???

Cheers Al

This is NOT a Rite press. Believe me, I've been studying them for more than 30 years. I was wondering if the number has something to do with the date.

It does resemble a Pama pressing from Cleveland. There's another pressing plant, name escapes me, that looks like this as well. What's in the dead wax?

- George

Yeh, I agree with you Dave, you've summed it up in one.

I've always loved both Barbara & The Browns and the James & Bobby versions of this superb piece of Southern Soul (could never really decide which i prefered TBH) but the Billy Butler here is a nice 'raw' take on a classic deepie.

Strange one as it is...

...I want one!

Sean

Yeh, I agree with you Dave, you've summed it up in one.

I've always loved both Barbara & The Browns and the James & Bobby versions of this superb piece of Southern Soul (could never really decide which i prefered TBH) but the Billy Butler here is a nice 'raw' take on a classic deepie.

Strange one as it is...

...I want one!

Sean

i finally got a chance to listen to the record, it's interesting, i prefer the barbara and the browns version still. definitely not pressed in chicago, i think it's chicago's billy butler but i'm not 100%

I'll try and absorb this tomorrow when I get more time. The same track was put out by Barbara & the Browns "I Don't Want To Have To Wait" on Cadet (1966) and also by James & Bobby Purify on Bell. I've put the Youtube vids on here so you can see the labels and possibly gleen any info from them. Would be interesting to hear the flip side and see if that tallies up with any other known track.

Writer is Don Culver as credited on Barbara & The Browns ( Colver error on the Purify)

Great track and I really like this one you have. In fact after a couple of listens I absolutely love it. Just such raw deep soul, superb.

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=jaGOeuY9bTU

Wow, this is really interesting. Love both these versions.

My next question is, what date were the above issued (1966 &?) and do you think the 'Billy Butler' version predates these. If so, do you think this is the first version and have you ever seen this label before.

Its also odd that both the above have the same writer credit too.

The deadwax is etched with 10281 a & 10281 b

I wonder why the titles of the above tracks changed from 'I Need You'?

Thankyou so much for this wonderful info! More please

Alan

Edited February 10, 201015 yr by Alamo

Don't forget Terry Felton's version on Revilot, either (which is a Memphis recording that, from memory, shares a backing track with the Barbara and the Browns version...)

I honestly can't believe how many of you are deluding yourself into thinking this is the Billy Butler. It doesn't sound even slightly like him!

Could just as easily be Billy Bunter to these ears. Yarooh - leggo, beast...

...It;s very nice, though, whoever it is.

Edited February 10, 201015 yr by TONY ROUNCE

Wow, this is really interesting. Love both these versions.

My next question is, what date were the above issued (1966 &?) and do you think the 'Billy Butler' version predates these. If so, do you think this is the first version and have you ever seen this label before.

Its also odd that both the above have the same writer credit too.

The deadwax is etched with 10281 a & 10281 b

I wonder why the titles of the above tracks changed from 'I Need You'?

Thankyou so much for this wonderful info! More please

Alan

Just my opinion so don't take it as gospel. As Don Culver had written other stuff for Barbara & the Browns I'd view it as before the "Billy Butler" track.

Barbara & the Browns (August 1966)

James & Bobby Purify (1967)

Also as Tony Rounce has pointed out there is the Terry Felton cut on Revilot which I believe was 1968

Dates though are release dates and not neccessarily recording dates.

Don't ya just love it when an unknown cut of a classic title comes to light.

With a name like Billy Butler and the fact that the track is so very good I find it hard to believe that this isn't anything other than exceptionally rare piece. Unless exceptionally rare an "unknown" Billy Butler would have been discovered long ago I'd have thought.

The James & Bobby Purify is perhaps the one of the best sound for pennies bargains you could find. No more than a couple of quid for the US Bell, it's the flip to "Let Love Come Between Us". Also on UK Stateside

Edited February 10, 201015 yr by Dave Turner

I honestly can't believe how many of you are deluding yourself into thinking this is the Billy Butler. It doesn't sound even slightly like him!

Could just as easily be Billy Bunter to these ears. Yarooh - leggo, beast...

...It;s very nice, though, whoever it is.

I think Mr Rounce may have called this right.

It's probably some dude, with the same name as our hero, doing a cover version on a Private press, hence the title change.

This did happen on occasion so it is likely.

Sean

I would say same thing Alan, not the BB we all know and love.

a soundalikey and lookalikey probably

Anyway Tony says you know everything anyway lol

Ian.

I would say same thing Alan, not the BB we all know and love.

a soundalikey and lookalikey probably

Anyway Tony says you know everything anyway lol

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Thanks for that mate. It is very interesting but who is the female vocal!!!??????

I think Mr Rounce may have called this right.

It's probably some dude, with the same name as our hero, doing a cover version on a Private press, hence the title change.

This did happen on occasion so it is likely.

Sean

Hi Sean,

I would think if its some dude with a voice like that, (a) He would have many songs to his credit & ( he would certainly be recognisable as someone we all know perhaps!?

Also, we are forgetting that the female vocal on the track is equally outstanding and again surely she would be recognisable.

I dont dispute arguments that it may not be THE 'Billy Butler' but why would you bother to have this privately pressed if it had already been released previously by 2/3 other artistes? This is why I think it predates the other copies perhaps and not to mention that the running time on this copy is 3 minutes 20 seconds which is longer than the other versions.

I still feel that if it was a 'raw' copy, any cover would be reduced in length for the commercial Radio Stations and maybe even a title change to prevent breach of copyright perhaps?

Thanks for your imput on this thread by the way, it is very appreciated.

Alan

Doesn"t sound like Mr Butler to me either...........but I'll ask him about it when I see him tommorrow.............weather/snow permitting.

Cheers Paul

Doesn"t sound like Mr Butler to me either...........but I'll ask him about it when I see him tommorrow.............weather/snow permitting.

Cheers Paul

Really!!????????????????? Alan

Yep he plays guitar for brother Jerrys band playing in Washington DC for 4 nights from tommorrow

Not sure if the airports open so don't know if we"ll make it but if we do I will ask him for you and show him this thread

Cheers Paul

Yep he plays guitar for brother Jerrys band playing in Washington DC for 4 nights from tommorrow

Not sure if the airports open so don't know if we"ll make it but if we do I will ask him for you and show him this thread

Cheers Paul

Nice one Paul! Good Luck

ATB- Al

DC under about 6 feet of snow at the moment Alan !!!

I suppose we'll both be getting a Seaman Slap

yep you both better start sleeping with 1 eye open !!, you,ll be used to that by now Alan after a weekend sleeping in the same chalet as Tony

as for you Dave i,m going to knee you in the chin

you going to north wings soul club on sat Dave ??

Ian.

Hi Alan, got Billy Butler standing next to me in my hotel room and the refo soul clip wont play !!!

Can you send me an mp3 to my e-mail soon as please ?

address is grandmasterpaco@hotmail.com

Cheers Paul

No mate, I'm afraid I ain't.

Wadya wanna know for? Is that where yer planning to chin me

Hi Alan, got Billy Butler standing next to me in my hotel room and the refo soul clip wont play !!!

Can you send me an mp3 to my e-mail soon as please ?

address is grandmasterpaco@hotmail.com

Cheers Paul

On its way Paul with a scan of the label!!!

Good luck mate.

Very exciting. Wh'appen?

Thanks for sending the mp3 Alan

Just played Billy the track and he is sure that it isn't him

He thinks that its Ashford and Simpson maybe moonlighting

Cheers Paul and Billy Butler

Thanks for sending the mp3 Alan

Just played Billy the track and he is sure that it isn't him

He thinks that its Ashford and Simpson maybe moonlighting

Cheers Paul and Billy Butler

Well Ashford & Simpson would certainly fit the bill. Does anyone else think it sound like them?

If so, do we think it predates the other versions or do we think it is after? Any thoughts anyone?

Al

Thanks for sending the mp3 Alan

Just played Billy the track and he is sure that it isn't him

He thinks that its Ashford and Simpson maybe moonlighting

Cheers Paul and Billy Butler

...Jack Ashford and Marge Simpson, presumably...

Sounds as much like Nick and Val as it does Renee and Renato. There is absolutely no reason on God's earth why two New York songwriters - songwriters who were at their most prolific in the mid 60s when (presumably) this was recorded - would record a poor quality version of a song by a Memphis-based writer. To even speculate that it might be them on this site defies all logic.

With the greatest of respect to Billy, I can onlly assume he's never actually heard A&S sing, if he thinks it's them!!!!!

Edited February 15, 201015 yr by TONY ROUNCE

Harsh but fair:lol:

Harsh but fair:lol:

...Jack Ashford and Marge Simpson, presumably...

Sounds as much like Nick and Val as it does Renee and Renato. There is absolutely no reason on God's earth why two New York songwriters - songwriters who were at their most prolific in the mid 60s when (presumably) this was recorded - would record a poor quality version of a song by a Memphis-based writer. To even speculate that it might be them on this site defies all logic.

With the greatest of respect to Billy, I can onlly assume he's never actually heard A&S sing, if he thinks it's them!!!!!

I went and dug out some of A&S 60's stuff last night to re-listen as I couldn't hear it, thought it was just my uneducated ears, but could hear no reason for that assumption. Interesting one!

Just my opinion so don't take it as gospel. As Don Culver had written other stuff for Barbara & the Browns I'd view it as before the "Billy Butler" track.

Barbara & the Browns (August 1966)

James & Bobby Purify (1967)

Also as Tony Rounce has pointed out there is the Terry Felton cut on Revilot which I believe was 1968

Dates though are release dates and not neccessarily recording dates.

Don't ya just love it when an unknown cut of a classic title comes to light.

With a name like Billy Butler and the fact that the track is so very good I find it hard to believe that this isn't anything other than exceptionally rare piece. Unless exceptionally rare an "unknown" Billy Butler would have been discovered long ago I'd have thought.

The James & Bobby Purify is perhaps the one of the best sound for pennies bargains you could find. No more than a couple of quid for the US Bell, it's the flip to "Let Love Come Between Us". Also on UK Stateside

The Babs and the Browns is definitely the first recording of this track - Don Culver was a staff writer at XL Records in the mid sixties who recorded all of Barbara's post Stax Recordings. The recording dates are, I think, explained in the Kent Compilation of her work which I put together a couple of years ago and which if you haven't got is well worth getting your hands on.

https://www.acerecords.co.uk/content.php?page_id=59&release=7480

Dean

The Babs and the Browns is definitely the first recording of this track - Don Culver was a staff writer at XL Records in the mid sixties who recorded all of Barbara's post Stax Recordings. The recording dates are, I think, explained in the Kent Compilation of her work which I put together a couple of years ago and which if you haven't got is well worth getting your hands on.

https://www.acerecord...59&release=7480

Dean

Dean, thanks for that. I suspected as such with the fact that Don Culver had written other stuff for Barbara Brown. I'm in the process of gradually obtaining much of the Ace/Kent compilations of southern and deep soul related material and this is on my list of future purchases.

Just took a listen to the samples and it sounds excellent.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/recsradio/radio/B000PATZQU/ref=pd_krex_dp_a

Edited February 15, 201015 yr by Dave Turner

...Jack Ashford and Marge Simpson, presumably...

Sounds as much like Nick and Val as it does Renee and Renato. There is absolutely no reason on God's earth why two New York songwriters - songwriters who were at their most prolific in the mid 60s when (presumably) this was recorded - would record a poor quality version of a song by a Memphis-based writer. To even speculate that it might be them on this site defies all logic.

With the greatest of respect to Billy, I can onlly assume he's never actually heard A&S sing, if he thinks it's them!!!!!

Hi Tony/All,

You've obviously got a very educated ear so, as you seem to recognise who it isn't, who do you think it mite possibly be? Im enjoying the debate but in all seriosness the voices IMO are wondefully soulful and cant believe no one has come up with an answer, especially as everyone seems to be so knowledgeable about this particular deep soul field.

I dont deny that I havn't got a clue, hence the thread, but I was rather hoping someone would put a name or both to this cover.?

ATB - Al

Hi Tony/All,

You've obviously got a very educated ear so, as you seem to recognise who it isn't, who do you think it mite possibly be? Im enjoying the debate but in all seriosness the voices IMO are wondefully soulful and cant believe no one has come up with an answer, especially as everyone seems to be so knowledgeable about this particular deep soul field.

I dont deny that I havn't got a clue, hence the thread, but I was rather hoping someone would put a name or both to this cover.?

ATB - Al

Hi Al,

My guess would be that it's some obscure bloke who just happens to be called Billy Butler. There's probably no more to it than that - it's hardly an uncommon name after all, and I certainly don't think it's an alias for anyone better known. I can think of two more Billy Butler's off the top of my head who it also isn't - the guitarist who played with Bill Doggett's band in the 50s and the veteran Liverpool DJ.

I don't think that the voices are particuarly strong, either - in fact it's the weakest of the four versions of this song, by some considerable distance too. I've got the other three versions, and I'm mighty glad to have them, but I wouldn't personally rush to make it four out of four if I was offered a copy...

Best,

TONE

Hi Tony/All,

You've obviously got a very educated ear so, as you seem to recognise who it isn't, who do you think it mite possibly be? Im enjoying the debate but in all seriosness the voices IMO are wondefully soulful and cant believe no one has come up with an answer, especially as everyone seems to be so knowledgeable about this particular deep soul field.

I dont deny that I havn't got a clue, hence the thread, but I was rather hoping someone would put a name or both to this cover.?

ATB - Al

Al, just a stab in the dark. Maybe not him but there was a Huey (Billy) Butler who always prfered to be called Billy in the original line up of Archie Bell & The Drells.

All,

Thanks for all your input on this 45 which has been very interesting and enjoyable. I cant believe that after all the 'toing' & 'throwing' there is no conclusion to such an amazing piece of deep soul IMHO (its only coz im disappointed really , and no its not because I hoped it was worth a small fortune for any synics amongst you!)

I suppose it will have to go down as a defeat for the 'anoraks' on this occasion but I live in hope that the true identity of the artistes comes to light one day. Would be a real shame for this not to get some identity recognition rather than sadly end up on the soul death pile as 'unknown'

Thankyou all once again for your input and your time. I live in hope.

Al

Thought you lived in Norwich Al

Thought you lived in Norwich Al

You twit! LOL

This is Tony Rounce using Ady's sign-in 'cos he's online at the moment and I'm not!

Does anyone else think this is an 'amazing piece of deep soul' or is it just Al? I actually thought it was totally ropey myself...

TONE (Not Ady....)

Edited February 16, 201015 yr by ady croasdell

Speaking as one who has always put quality before exclusivity and who has never bought into the idea that something its good just because its rare, I'm standing by my opinion.

If I had found this 45 in a shop, I probably would have played it and put it back. If someone ever offered it to me for free, I would probably decline the offer. I would have no more interest in it than I currently do (which is none) if the artist was eventually revealed to be one of my favourite singers . I've got enough great records in my collection, that I never get a chance to play, not to lose any sleep worrying about not owning this one. And I don't think I'll be eating humble pie on its account any time soon...

TONY

BTW I've never called myself an anorak. In fact I've never owned an anorak. I'm more of a parka man myself.

...It;s very nice, though, whoever it is.

What a contradiction in terms

P. S - I didn't mean 'anorak' to offend anyone so apologies if it was taken in the wrong context. I actually applaud yours and others knowledge on soul music. As I said, I was a little disaapointed we didn't get to a full conclusion.

Al

Billy checks out soul source

Mr Shrews & our hero

Harry van Vliet, Mr Shrews and Billy Butler

Harry van Vliet www.fingerpoppinsoul.nl , Mr Shrews and Billy Butler

Photos taken Feb 2010 By Mrs Shrews

Laptop courtesy of Mattie Butler

Cheers Paul

Edited February 18, 201015 yr by soul shrews

Great stuff Paul.

Sean

Nice to see him looking OK, Paul...

He'll always be one of my favourite singers, even if he doesn't know his A&S from his elbow!

For what it's worth, and anyone can slag me off if they wish as I've been in the pub and really don't give a sh-t.

I think its a good piece of deep soul, not a great piece but not a bad piece either. I take it on its own merit and not comparing it to Barbara & the Browns or James & Bobby Purify which were obviously recorded with a higher budget.

To me it typify's what much of very low budget black music was all about with that minimalistic recorded in a basement or garage sound.

If it was rare or common as shite I'd still like it sitting in my box next to Babs and the Purifys.

I like it a lot, just the kinda sound I get off on.

Off topic posts removed.

Nick

So from the horses mouth (so to speak ) deffinately not Billy Butler..........he told me himself

I was standing next to him 'onest guv

But he also said that he may have played on the track.................., he can"t remember all the tracks he"s played on (not surprisingly)

For instance I bought the Sharon Ridley "71 Sussex LP while I was in DC and although he was credited on the LP sleeve he had no idea of the LP or Sharon Ridley

Sooooo........... I reckon its a demo track with Billys name on for the hell of it (cos he may have played on it)

Don't ask me why its not just another acetate for the artists to "sing off" ............I have no idea

Just My theory

Cheers Paul

PS Tony, Billy was pretty convinced it was A& S .................but I"m not gonna argue with your ears

Billy checks out soul source

Mr Shrews & our hero

Harry van Vliet, Mr Shrews and Billy Butler

Harry van Vliet (www.fingerpoppinsoul.nl ), Mr Shrews and Billy Butler

Photos taken Feb 2010 By Mrs Shrews

Laptop courtesy of Mattie Butler

Cheers Paul

WOW !!!! Hats off to you Paul!!

So from the horses mouth (so to speak ) deffinately not Billy Butler..........he told me himself

I was standing next to him 'onest guv

But he also said that he may have played on the track.................., he can"t remember all the tracks he"s played on (not surprisingly)

For instance I bought the Sharon Ridley "71 Sussex LP while I was in DC and although he was credited on the LP sleeve he had no idea of the LP or Sharon Ridley

Sooooo........... I reckon its a demo track with Billys name on for the hell of it (cos he may have played on it)

Don't ask me why its not just another acetate for the artists to "sing off" ............I have no idea

Just My theory

Cheers Paul

PS Tony, Billy was pretty convinced it was A& S .................but I"m not gonna argue with your ears

Well Paul, Ive got to say this has to be the most fascinating piece of research on SS for a long time. Are we really in a position to argue with Billy Butler, considering the people he has sung next too etc etc etc. I think I would trust his ears 100% or at least give him some respectful credit for making an honest assumption of who he thinks it is!!

Nice one again Paul - Top man

Al

For what it's worth, and anyone can slag me off if they wish as I've been in the pub and really don't give a sh-t.

I think its a good piece of deep soul, not a great piece but not a bad piece either. I take it on its own merit and not comparing it to Barbara & the Browns or James & Bobby Purify which were obviously recorded with a higher budget.

To me it typify's what much of very low budget black music was all about with that minimalistic recorded in a basement or garage sound.

If it was rare or common as shite I'd still like it sitting in my box next to Babs and the Purifys.

I like it a lot, just the kinda sound I get off on.

Hear Hear bud. Well im glad you like it. Me too, I think its a raw production of hearfelt harmony sung beautifully by 2 'UNKNOWN' singers who get my vote as well.

For the record, I couldn't give a monkeys cuss about it value because im not one of those egotistical collectors who buys a slab of vinyl because of its value. If I like wots betwixt the grooves, thats all I care about.

Once again, I applaud everyones contributuion to an enthralling debate and hope one day someone definitively comes up with the answer.

ATB - Soul4ever Al

Billy checks out soul source

Mr Shrews & our hero

Harry van Vliet, Mr Shrews and Billy Butler

Harry van Vliet (www.fingerpoppinsoul.nl ), Mr Shrews and Billy Butler

Photos taken Feb 2010 By Mrs Shrews

Laptop courtesy of Mattie Butler

Cheers Paul

cool photos, thanks for posting

oh well alan. still no answer to this debate. hopefully 1 day someone with real knowledge of deep soul will provide an answer to the conundrum