Styrene's acetates and strange holes in records

A record collector's guide

If you want to know what's what as far as rare records are concerned the best place to find the answer would be to ask an avid record collector here on Soul source?

The worst place to find out about records n stuff is to go to some ones chalet after a weekender!

Well it was during one of those conversations in a chalet that we got talking about those strange little holes you often see in 45rpm records, I always thought they where a result of duke box use? One of my learned colleague's insisted that the cause of these small holes was due to a rod being inserted into a line of records as they were used for ships ballast, hence the amount of records that ended up on these shores?

Could any one please throw some light on this?

Acetates, that's the next thing I want to clarify, is this a pre run of a record prior to a full press? Why was this done?

Styrene, again we debated the reason for this and one of the reasons given was that during the Vietnam war America suffered a oil shortage and Styrene's where a cheep record?

Also why are there words and phrase scratched into the run out of records? Who did these and why?

extra small hole is a deletion mark? I understand that USA companies would punch the remaining stock when it was officially deleted from new sales and sold off cheap?You can often find USA Lp's with a hole punched in the corner of the sleeve, same thing.

Meesages in the run off are usually a UK phenomenon, done by the guy who mastered the record for pressing.

Styrene's acetates and strange holes in records

A record collector's guide

If you want to know what's what as far as rare records are concerned the best place to find the answer would be to ask an avid record collector here on Soul source?

The worst place to find out about records n stuff is to go to some ones chalet after a weekender!

Well it was during one of those conversations in a chalet that we got talking about those strange little holes you often see in 45rpm records, I always thought they where a result of duke box use? One of my learned colleague's insisted that the cause of these small holes was due to a rod being inserted into a line of records as they were used for ships ballast, hence the amount of records that ended up on these shores?

Could any one please throw some light on this?

Acetates, that's the next thing I want to clarify, is this a pre run of a record prior to a full press? Why was this done?

Styrene, again we debated the reason for this and one of the reasons given was that during the Vietnam war America suffered a oil shortage and Styrene's where a cheep record?

Also why are there words and phrase scratched into the run out of records? Who did these and why?

BB holes like mentioned were done after unsold store stock was returned - they were holed and then send to the bargain bins at reduced price.

Styrene was used as it was much lighter to move around and cheaper to produce.

Acetates are made as part of the manufacturing process in the record plants - they use them to make the stampers if I remember.

That's my take !

M

BB holes like mentioned were done after unsold store stock was returned - they were holed and then send to the bargain bins at reduced price.

Styrene was used as it was much lighter to move around and cheaper to produce.

Acetates are made as part of the manufacturing process in the record plants - they use them to make the stampers if I remember.

That's my take !

M

No, acetates are made often for the artist and producer to listen to, and in some cases made as emergency demos if they couldn't wait for a vinyl copy to get pressed.

No, acetates are made often for the artist and producer to listen to, and in some cases made as emergency demos if they couldn't wait for a vinyl copy to get pressed.

This has been posted before - but great train spotting stuff

I thought acetates were the metal discs they made first ?

This has been posted before - but great train spotting stuff

I thought acetates were the metal discs they made first ?

Are masters different from acetates ? I am getting confused !

Are masters different from acetates ? I am getting confused !

Acetates are just to run off a track to listen back to. The master/stamper is what they use to press the record. Then they make a test presing, then a demo, then an issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiUcpEXAQQU

And here in Ja - the equipment looks a little older !!!!

I have a few that have come out of this machine !!!!

Acetates are just to run off a track to listen back to. The master/stamper is what they use to press the record. Then they make a test presing, then a demo, then an issue.

Thanks for that Pete, I always thought the silver disc on the vid was the Acetate.

See ..... you can be nice and helpful when you try !!!

Thanks for that Pete, I always thought the silver disc on the vid was the Acetate.

See ..... you can be nice and helpful when you try !!!

I'm always helpful!

I'm always helpful!

So do they use an acetate machine / lathe type of thing, that just carves blank acetates ?

If so it all makes perfect sense to me now,

M

So do they use an acetate machine / lathe type of thing, that just carves blank acetates ?

If so it all makes perfect sense to me now,

M

Yes!

Acetates -

Acetates are a blank acetate (ie metal) disc sandwiched by 2 sides of Shellac, the same material as 78's and not vinyl. They were manufactured blank and carved directly from the tape playback in the studio on a big old record playing type machine (using a hefty needle). All uk studios probably used to have one, I've seen a couple of these machines at boot sales in london years ago. Its not a good idea to clean acetates with record cleaner by the way I fucked my Magic Roundabout copy like that!

so whats a "Carver"

so whats a "Carver"

Its a piece of vinyl that is carved on a lath.

It would seem just like the acetates used to be made, but these days they do it on a plastic/vinyl disc.

see https://vinylcarvers.com/homepage.html

Acetates -

Acetates are a blank acetate (ie metal) disc sandwiched by 2 sides of Shellac, the same material as 78's and not vinyl.

acetates/dubplates are an aluminium disc with one or two sides of cellulose laquer coating, not shellac.

Actually, acetates are the very first step, the lacquer cutting stage usually using a 10" blank for a 7" record and a 14" blank for a 12" record, after which they are processed through various stages before they end up with negative stampers for production.

Those acetates have to be handled and stored very carefully and are usually used within hours or days of cutting.

I have some mastering acetates so I'll try to get a photo and post it up here.

But Pete's quite right that other acetates (7" and 12") are generally usually for reference purposes and sometimes for early promotion etc.

By the way, my dad managed a press shop where they used to make uncoated aluminium blanks for acetates in the 1960s. Every once in a while they'd get an order from a company in London for thousands of "biscuits" (as he called them).

When I first bought an acetate he said "that's a biscuit" and told me all about it.

After a while it seems that almost all the blanks were made in the US and in Japan by just two companies who cornered the market. These days there's only one company making the blanks.

Edited March 23, 201015 yr by Paul

...Styrene was used as it was much lighter to move around and cheaper to produce....quote]

Styrene was used simply because it was the only really suitable (and fully liquifiable) raw material which could be used in the "new" automated injection-moulding process that developed in the early 1950s. Vinyl compound just wasn't suitable.

It was about the process, not the material.

The main advantages of injection moulding were full automation and multi-cavity machines (often with four "bays" per machine meaning four discs could be "pressed" in one "stroke" by one operator), faster production, a more consistant and lighter product and much lower tooling costs - because the dies (stampers) for styrene records could produce around 50,000 discs without wearing out, whereas conventional stampers for compression pressing of vinyl records need to be replaced after just 1000 copies or so (at expense and also interupting production to have new stampers set in the machines).

The tooling costs for injection-moulded records were actually higher than a pair of stampers for vinyl records but as they were good for 50,000 copies it worked out to be a huge saving - in both money and time. Better than having to grow 50 pairs of stampers.

But if someone just wanted 500 or 1000 records and didn't expect to need any more, it would often be cheaper to press by compression on vinyl as it wasn't worth setting up for injection-moulding with styrene.

Injection-moulding was developed for mass-production (not just for records but for lots of plastic products including combs, key rings, toys etc). I'm told that one operator could control several machines, each with several bays, enabling him or her to turn out a thousand discs in a couple of hours or less.

Another optional advantage with injection-moulding on styrene was that you could impress the label design onto the dies and apply a layer of paint to the discs rather than print paper labels ...again, saving time and money.

The plant recognised as the pioneer of successfully making injection-moulded styrene records is Bestway Products of Mountainside, New Jersey, owned by Al Massler who owned Bell Records at one time. Other major plants include Shelley Products, Columbia, Allied, National, Mercury and Monarch.

I've studied this (...yes, I know I'm a bit sad) and I have some notes somewhere which I should turn into an article because it's interesting stuff and is often misunderstood.

By the way, a lot of people debate about the quality of styrene compared to vinyl. It's agreed that styrene is brittle and can wear fast but, if handled carefully, I think styrene discs offer better sound reproduction (a brighter sound and more accurate bass response) and certainly have much lower surface noise.

I don't think anyone is pressing styrene records these days, purely because record pressing is done is such low volumes and the initial costs of setting up an injection-moulding plant would be very high.

Great info Paul.

Other thing I've always wondered about is the little dimples some records have. Specially Jamaican represses, but I've seen them in a couple of recent (noughties) stuff, too.

I guess its because of cheap, less quality or re-used vinyl?

A rough guide

Not always in this order.

Once a master tape was finished, usually 1/4", then a few acetate would be cut. These would be used to play to others in the record company, Motown used them alot for their weekly meeting to see if a project was to go further. Alsd used sometimes to let favoured DJ's get a track real early or even for an artist to punt his product around record label, producers etc.

Acetates are cut on a lathe that looks like an over sized turntable, this has a hot needle than cuts a groove into a blank soft vinyl covered metal disc. The needle vibrates directly to the sound being sent down the arm from the recording.

Master plates/Stampers are then cut a the pressing plant (the larger ones) or at a mastering service. The pressing plant will then run a few test pressing for quality control. the number of these depends on the contract and or the size of the pressing run. If it was a very large pressing run, then additional test pressing would be run every now and then as continued quality control.

These would often be kept on the master file by the record company, or used as advanced demo to send out to dj's.

Master files, are where the tapes, stampers and test pressing are kept by the record companies, although the stampers and test pressing often get lost.

Pressing runs. Major national label would often contract several different plants to press at the same time, hense different pressing of same release. Sometimes, east/west coast and mid-west plants would be used.

The label owner would contract the plant to either run a demo run first on larger presses or a mix of demos and normal pressing as part of the same run. On lower budgets just a run of issues would be run off.

Edited March 23, 201015 yr by Dave Thorley

Great info Paul.

Other thing I've always wondered about is the little dimples some records have. Specially Jamaican represses, but I've seen them in a couple of recent (noughties) stuff, too.

I guess its because of cheap, less quality or re-used vinyl?

Dimples and blistering can be due to inferior or inconsistent raw materials or poor processing or pressing (uneven heat), and sometimes a sign or re-grade vinyl rather than virgin vinyl.

When you think, all you need is a speck of dust or whatever on the stamper(s) and it will be impressed onto the vinyl.

I think vinyl production has really improved in recent years (at least at one plant in the UK, one in Holland, one in the Czech Republic and one in the USA) despite the fact that the technology hasn't really changed. At least mastering and processing has certainly improved a lot.

I heard a joke that if you drive over a pothole on a road in Jamaica, it's likely that the tarmac has been stolen by someone to be used at a pressing plant!

I think the truth is that mass-produced records can get a big rough (especially when some plants use a pair of stampers way beyond 1000 copies) but small runs are usually pretty good.

A rough guide

Not always in this order.

Once a master tape was finished, usually 2", then a few acetate would be cut. These would be used to play to others in the record company, Motown used them alot for their weekly meeting to see if a project was to go further. Alsd used sometimes to let favoured DJ's get a track real early or even for an artist to punt his product around record label, producers etc.

Acetates are cut on a lathe that looks like an over sized turntable, this has a hot needle than cuts a groove into a blank soft vinyl covered metal disc. The needle vibrates directly to the sound being sent down the arm from the recording.

Master plates/Stampers are then cut a the pressing plant (the larger ones) or at a mastering service. The pressing plant will then run a few test pressing for quality control. the number of these depends on the contract and or the size of the pressing run. If it was a very large pressing run, then additional test pressing would be run every now and then as continued quality control.

These would often be kept on the master file by the record company, or used as advanced demo to send out to dj's.

Master files, are where the tapes, stampers and test pressing are kept by the record companies, although the stampers and test pressing often get lost.

Pressing runs. Major national label would often contract several different plants to press at the same time, hense different pressing of same release. Sometimes, east/west coast and mid-west plants would be used.

The label owner would contract the plant to either run a demo run first on larger presses or a mix of demos and normal pressing as part of the same run. On lower budgets just a run of issues would be run off.

The only thing I would disagree with, Dave, is that the acetate would usually be cut from a 1/4" 2-track tape made in the final mixdown session by running the 2" 24-track multitrack with various effects etc.

Then, in the lacquer cutting stage, the 1/4" two-track mixdown tape would be played (but with more added effects, EQ, compression and limiting etc.) as the lacquer is actually cut.

And that means that to get an accurate copy of the master you need to locate the actual 1/4" mixdown tape, rather than the 2" multitrack, and you'd also need to know what kind of effects were applied in the cutting stage (unless they also ran off a second 1/4" tape on a second machine as a final reference). Otherwise you'd get a slightly different mix.

In most cases they didn't record an extra 1/4" reference copy with added effects so the most accurate copy of the master is in fact an acetate, metalwork, stamper or a mint copy of a finished pressing.

That's because so many important adjustments were (and still are) made as the lacquers are cut.

This is also explains why you can get a reissue of a record using the original master tape but it sounds or feels a bit different to the original. It's likely due to different amounts of compression and other processes being applied in the cutting stage.

This is why, for example, Atlantic would run off several acetates at the same mastering session and send copies out to various plants for processing. If they had sent tapes out, each plant would have got a slightly different sound in the cutting stage.

Dimples and blistering can be due to inferior or inconsistent raw materials or poor processing or pressing (uneven heat), and sometimes a sign or re-grade vinyl rather than virgin vinyl.

When you think, all you need is a speck of dust or whatever on the stamper(s) and it will be impressed onto the vinyl.

I think vinyl production has really improved in recent years (at least at one plant in the UK, one in Holland, one in the Czech Republic and one in the USA) despite the fact that the technology hasn't really changed. At least mastering and processing has certainly improved a lot.

I heard a joke that if you drive over a pothole on a road in Jamaica, it's likely that the tarmac has been stolen by someone to be used at a pressing plant!

I think the truth is that mass-produced records can get a big rough (especially when some plants use a pair of stampers way beyond 1000 copies) but small runs are usually pretty good.

Thanks for that, Paul.

The recent pressings I was making reference to are some pretty new (late 2009) records produced here in Mexico. I was really exited by the prospect of a pressing plant opening here. The results were a bit dissapointing, to say the least.

The only thing I would disagree with, Dave, is that the acetate would usually be cut from a 1/4" 2-track tape made in the final mixdown session by running the 2" 24-track multitrack with various effects etc.

Then, in the lacquer cutting stage, the 1/4" two-track mixdown tape would be played (but with more added effects, EQ, compression and limiting etc.) as the lacquer is actually cut.

And that means that to get an accurate copy of the master you need to locate the actual 1/4" mixdown tape, rather than the 2" multitrack, and you'd also need to know what kind of effects were applied in the cutting stage (unless they also ran off a second 1/4" tape on a second machine as a final reference). Otherwise you'd get a slightly different mix.

In most cases they didn't record an extra 1/4" reference copy with added effects so the most accurate copy of the master is in fact an acetate, metalwork, stamper or a mint copy of a finished pressing.

That's because so many important adjustments were (and still are) made as the lacquers are cut.

This is also explains why you can get a reissue of a record using the original master tape but it sounds or feels a bit different to the original. It's likely due to different amounts of compression and other processes being applied in the cutting stage.

This is why, for example, Atlantic would run off several acetates at the same mastering session and send copies out to various plants for processing. If they had sent tapes out, each plant would have got a slightly different sound in the cutting stage.

Totally agree, was early and wasn't think have amended my post

Dave

Totally agree, was early and wasn't think have amended my post

Dave

I thought so, Dave. What set me off was you mentioned 2" multitracks and they were used for 24 track sessions, by which time everyone was using 1/4" tapes at 15 or 30 IPS for their production masters.

But "straight to acetate masters" were certainly used in the older days, long before 2" multitracks. And, in theory, it could still be done that way to cut out a few processes (although far less options).

Really found this Thread interesting.Thank-you Gentlemen.I have learnt something about what I have often wondered,but never asked.

Really found this Thread interesting.Thank-you Gentlemen.I have learnt something about what I have often wondered,but never asked.

LIKEWISE REALLY INTERESTING READING THANKYOU

Terms and Definitions....posted on KTF many moons ago and I've reposted on here several times. Some of it might be of use to some...

These are terms and definitions that are common and not so common to the

record collecting and record selling community.

Styrene (properly, Polystyrene).

Hard, relatively inflexible plastic used to press records, mainly 7-inch

singles, mainly using the Injection Moulding process. The material is heated

to a liquid form and is then squirted or injected into the closed stampers

in the press. This requires that the labels be either glued or painted on

after the record leaves the press. The cost savings to the manufacturer

comes from the extended life of the stampers because of the lack of a

heating cycle to the stampers. The material can also be reused without

noticeable change to its moulding properties. Styrene records will therefore

usually have very quiet surfaces when found in an UNPLAYED Mint condition,

but unfortunately they will wear to a noisy condition rapidly, especially if

played with a bad stylus or an improperly tracking tone arm. They also are

more prone to Cue Burn. The Columbia Records Pittman, New Jersey pressing

plant was once the major source of Injection Moulded Styrene pressings, and

pressings from this plant are found on MANY small labels. Look for the

glued-on labels. Painted-on labels can be found on records from the

Amy/Bell/Mala group.

Vinyl (properly Polyvinyl Chloride).

Relatively flexible material used since the early 1930s to make

non-breakable records. Its fumes are an acknowledged carcinogen, so don't

breathe in deeply when you have your next holy burning of Beatles or

back-masked devil-worship records. :-) Usually pressed by Compression

Moulding which allows the label to be an integral part of the pressing

itself. This process also requires that there be extra material which spills

out the sides of the press, therefore this extra material is routinely

ground up and re-used. Because vinyl does not re-heat and re-cool to a

smooth, glossy surface, the excessive use of re-grind mixed in with Virgin

Vinyl can account for the inherently noisy surface of even unplayed Mint

examples of the cheap pressings that some record companies used. Noise can

be seen AND HEARD by looking at and/or playing the un-grooved surface of the

lead-in and lead-out areas. If this area looks or sounds grainy, then the

grooves will also have some of this grainy background sound. The stampers

used for the compression moulding process will start to break down after

only 1,000 pressings because they are forced to expand and contract when

heated by steam at the start of the pressing cycle and then cooled to

solidify the record. Some companies routinely overused their stampers for

their pop record series.

Dynaflex.

Ultra-thin pressings of high-grade Virgin Vinyl introduced by RCA Victor in

late 1969. Although considered crap by most collectors because they do not

seem flat when held, they actually have much quieter surfaces then most of

the popular records pressed by RCA in the mid-to-late-1960s due to the

extraordinarily high percentage of Re-grind Vinyl used in all but it's Red

Seal, Vintage Series, and Original Cast pressings. Dynaflex was also less

prone to breakage and permanent warp-age in shipment. Its lighter weight

reduced shipping costs and allowed for the use of a higher grade of Vinyl

because less material was required. They were supposed to lie flat on the

turntable due to their own weight, but RCA forgot that many people had

changers with 8-inch turntables!

Dynagroove.

Record cutting system introduced by RCA Victor in 1962 that supposedly

reduced tracking distortion by computer controlling cutting characteristics

to overcome the imagined faults of playback equipment. Considered a disaster

by everyone except the New York Times writer Hans Fantel who wrote the blurb

inserted in all of the early pressings, it brought the golden age of RCA

Victor Living Stereo to a screeching halt. Because there is a possibility

that this system was used on later re-masterings of the early Living Stereo

records, collectors try to obtain only early pressings of these

masterpieces--usually called Shaded Dogs. The words Stereo-Orthophonic

are on the record label and sometimes the cover of the good Living Stereo

albums.

Acetate/Lacquer

Is usually a reference cut that is made on ultra high-grade methyl cellulose

sprayed onto thick aluminium discs. Reference acetates are primarily to make

certain the record will sound somewhat like the tape. Often they are also

made to allow a club or radio disc-jockey to play the music on turntables

before it has been pressed as a normal record. Acetate is a misnomer. It is

actually a Lacquer, but since so many people call these acetates, both will

be used here.

Alternate take

At a recording session more than one take (recorded version) may be kept on

file for future use. What is considered the best take at the time is usually

used for the commercial release. Sometimes a different take is used for a

compilation album or in really rare cases the first recording that was

issued is pulled and an alternate take from the same session is used. When

this happens a lot of people will think there is something different about

that song. This was done with a 50s record from Whirling Disc records. It

was Whirling Disc 107 and the songs were I Really Love You/What Do You

Do by The Channels. After a couple of months in release, Bobby Robinson

(the owner) for whatever reason, used two different takes (one for each

side) from the same session for subsequent releases. Anyone that has heard

both records (I have both) can tell the difference between the two in a

minute. The most famous of all is the Bob Dylan, Positively 4th Street 45

on Columbia. For some reason, some copies of the commercial 45 were issued

with a version of Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window instead of Positively 4th Street The funny thing is that Dylan's next release on

Columbia Can you please crawl out your window was a different take than

the mistake on Positively....

Test pressing

A test pressing is sent back to the cutting engineer, producer and

sometimes the performer, to confirm that the pressings will sound as

intended. Most TP's are really just early pressings, frequently without

artwork of any kind, and they are serviced to whoever as early promo's. In

many cases this was done to rush the record out to radio stations to try and

get immediate airplay before the complete label could be finished.

Original Label

This refers to the company that first issued a certain record. A lot of

times small labels will have a record that will become very popular and they

cannot meet the sales demand. In a lot of cases the master is sold or leased

to a larger record company and the record is released on the larger

company's own label. Also look at the small label examples under Reissue.

All of these fall under Original label.

First Pressing

The way the record first came out on a certain label. Examples: The first

pressing of Sixty Minute Man by the Dominoes came out on Gold top Federal.

The first pressing of Church Bells May Ring by the Willows came out as

Church Bells Are Ringing and all that was changed a few weeks later was

the title. The label design and color remained the same.

Reissue

There are several types of reissues. There is the budget reissue. This falls

into the K-tell, design, forum and etc labels. These are discount labels

that got the permission to use the original master to issue songs (usually

hits) later as discount compilations. Then there is the reissue that is just

a later issue that isn't a budget item. Labels that can fit here are:

Collectibles, Eric, Rhino and etc. And then there is the other type reissue.

A record that was originally pressed on a small label (see Original label

above) and then was picked up by a major or by a big independent. Examples:

Question Mark; The Mysterians--96 Tears. First recorded for Pa-go-go. It

was picked up by Cameo/Parkway and reissued on Cameo. At The Hop, Danny

and the Juniors--original on Singular with a count-off intro. It was then

picked up by ABC Paramount and the intro was deleted. Short Shorts, the

Royal Teens--original on Power but the hit was on ABC Paramount after ABC

picked it up from Power and reissued it on their own label. The Motley

Crue's first album originally came out on Leather and then was picked up and

reissued on Elektra.

Re-release

A record that was out of print for a certain period of time and the original

company decides to put it back into their catalog of available items.

Re-number

Taking a currently available record and re-numbering it.

Re-recording

A song that was originally recorded by an artist for one label and then was

re-recorded and issued later by another label (Sometimes the original label

will record the same song by the artist years later). Examples: Roy Orbison

and the Teen Kings. Ooby Dooby--originally recorded for Je-wel records and

was later re-recorded and issued on Sun. Penguins--Earth Angel (Will You Be

Mine)--Originally recorded by the Penguins and released by Dootone records.

Re-recorded and issued later on Mercury.

Revision/RE

To RCA Victor it means that something was revised, a credit was changed, the

layout of the cover was changed, something simple like that. Sometimes the

first pressings of the record has an RE. They did their changes even before

issuing and felt it important enough to note it. You see things like this in

the RCA files. This is the meaning of RE on the back of some of the RCA

albums.

Cover

The same song issued by another artist at about the same time as the first

record. This was done to cover up or take away sales from the first

record. Timeliness was important in issuing cover records. Many times in

the 50s the cover record was by a white artist covering a song by a

black artist or black group. If the white artist or group was successful,

the black artists record either died, or did not sell very well outside R &

B circles. Examples: are: Sh-boom The Chords covered by the Crew-Cuts. The

Crew-Cuts far outsold The Chords. Wheel Of Fortune by the Cardinals was

covered by Kay Starr. Starr far outsold the Cardinals. Remake--A song done

later-on by another artist. This was not timely enough to be called a

cover record. Examples: Hound Dog Big Mama Thornton remade a few years

later by Elvis. The Train Kept a-Rollin', orignally by Tiny Bradshaw.

Remade a few years later by the Rock'n Roll Trio. Remade again in the mid

60s by The Yardbirds. Louie Louie Richard Berry in the mid 50s. Remade by

the Kingsmen in the early 60s and then by 9 million other artists.

Master Numbers/Matrix Numbers.

These terms (interchangeable) are used for the side identification number

for each side of a record. It is usually printed on the label and is also in

the dead wax of a record. I think it was also the catalog number given to

each recorded song of a record label. RCA, Columbia and Epic had special

alphabetical prefixes for their master numbers. Dated master numbers. Some

labels for a time put a date at the beginning of their master numbers. This

would show the releases for that year. The next year would start at the

bottom of the numbering sequence. Labels that did this were: VJ, Tollie,

M-G-M and Cub. RCA also did this from the late 40 to the early 60s. They

used a letter and a number to denote the date. D8 would be 1948; E4 was

1954. In 1956 they changed again with F being 1956, G being 1957 and H being

1958. And they skipped I for 1959.

Machine Stamped

A lot of labels used perfect die cut letters to put the master numbers and

pressing numbers in the dead wax of their records. This is different than

the hand written numbers that some companies used. In a lot of cases this

can be used to a certain degree of certainty in determining a counterfeit

with U. S. pressings. Some companies that had machine stamped master numbers

were: RCA, Decca, Coral, Brunswick, Capitol. Columbia, Liberty, Laurie and

Rust. Atlantic had the numbers usually hand written, but somewhere in the

dead wax had AT---machine stamped, but once in awhile it was handwritten.

Lead-in groove.

This is the silent area at the beginning of a record.

Cue-up area

This is the area where a disc jockey cues up the record so that the music

will start as soon as he starts the turntable. With the stylus on the record

the disc jockey moves the record back and forth over the same area to get

the desired start-up point.

Cueing scratch/Cue burn

A common phenomenon with 45s that were cued-up by disc jockeys. In most

cases there is either a hiss or a loss of fidelity in the first few

revolutions of the record. Dead Wax--Also known as the trail-off groove and

lead-out area. Also known as the run-off area. The area between the end of

the recording and the label.

Delta number

In July of 1954 an independent pressing plant in Los Angeles, called Monarch

Records started putting a Delta (triangle) with a number next to it in the

dead wax of each record that they pressed. This is the way that they kept

track of the order of items pressed. Each side had it's own Delta number.

Repaired Seam

In a lot of cases the edge seam on album covers, EP covers and picture

sleeves become split. This is a designation to show that this has been

repaired. Sometimes this is done by gluing the ends together and sometimes

tape is used to close the split.

Colored wax (this is actually colored vinyl)

Several companies in the early 50s used color vinyl on some of their 45

issues. These are normally a lot rarer and more sought after than the normal

black vinyl release. Some examples: King--Blueish green for its R&B series,

and red vinylfor its maroon label country series. Federal--Same blueish

green vinyl as King Chance--Red vinyl Vee Jay--Red vinyl Gotham--Pink vinyl

Jubilee--Red vinyl Imperial--purple vinyl And the most famous of the 60s

labels to issue white label promos on colored wax. Columbia with the

following known colors: Red vinyl, green vinyl, blue vinyl, yellow vinyl and

purple vinyl.

Timing strip

This is usually found glued to the front of promo copies of albums. This

shows the song titles and playing times for each cut on the album. These can

take up a small space at the bottom of an album or can take up to half of

the album cover at the bottom. Gatefold--An album cover, EP cover or Picture

sleeve that opens up like a gate. Sometimes has records that fit in both

open ends.

Vinyl Junkie

A record collector that has the collecting fever so bad that nothing else

really matters. He/she plans his/her vacations around looking for records.

He/she spends his/her weekends going to the usual swap meets, garage sales

and record meets. He/she spends hours on the phone and internet with fellow

record collectors.

Lunched

A term used by the old time R & B collectors to denote a record that is so

beat up that it has no redeeming value. This came from seeing a record that

was so trashed that you thought somebody tried eating it for lunch.

Break-in record

A record that usually has a story line and has a lot of segments of

different records mixed in. In most cases the records used are current of

that time period. This form was first popularlized by Bill Buchanan and

Dicke Goodman otherwise known as Buchanan and Goodman.

Answer record

A record that is usually a response to another record, usually a hit. This

is usually done by a different artist, not by the original artist. Examples:

Duke of Earl, Duchess of Earl, Mother in-law---Son in-law Oh Carol;Oh Neil,A Boy Named Sue;A Girl Named Johnny Cash and so on.

Kiddie Record

These were usually records that were put out for children by the big labels.

In the early 50s they came out in both 45 and 78 form. RCA had the Little

Nipper Series. Decca had theChildren's Series and Capitol had the Bozo Approved series and the Record Reader series where you followed along in

a booklet attached between the covers, and read along while the record

played. RCA also had versions of this.

Bootleg

(Bootleg is also incorrectly and improperly used as a synonym of counterfeit

and reproduction). An illegal pressing of a record that was recorded at a

concert and does not have the band or record company's permission to do so.

Can also be used to describe illegally pressed music from a company's vaults

that was acquired without the record company's permission. The term was also

used with 50s and 60s 45 rpm collectors as exact reproduction and forgery.

Counterfeit

Also known as bootleg, also known as a repro--(Bootleg and Repro are

commonly used but wrongly used terms)This is a record that was illegally

remade to look and sound like the original issue. This is usually done by

making a tape of a regular pressing of an original copy of one of the

records and then pressing this up on vinyl. Most of these types are made up

to look exactly like the original with the same artwork and label design.

The counterfeiter does not show any distinction between his forgery and the

original (Once in awhile the bootlegger will make a subtle change to the

label to let collectors know his record is in fact a counterfeit--Henry

Mariano used to scratch in the current year into the deadwax of his

counterfeits).

Repro

Reproduction--Same as Counterfeit. An exact copy of a record done without

permission of the original record company or without permission of the owner

of the master recording.

Radio Spots

Promotional Adverstising records that went to radio stations. These were

mainly records that had a few one minute (or so) spots plugging a product or

even a current movie.

Studio Tracks

Film or cast music which has been re-recorded [i. e. not an original

soundtrack taken directly from the film/cast, even if featuring the same

cast, musicians or orchestra

Styrene's acetates and strange holes in records

A record collector's guide

If you want to know what's what as far as rare records are concerned the best place to find the answer would be to ask an avid record collector here on Soul source?

The worst place to find out about records n stuff is to go to some ones chalet after a weekender!

Well it was during one of those conversations in a chalet that we got talking about those strange little holes you often see in 45rpm records, I always thought they where a result of duke box use? One of my learned colleague's insisted that the cause of these small holes was due to a rod being inserted into a line of records as they were used for ships ballast, hence the amount of records that ended up on these shores?

Could any one please throw some light on this?

Acetates, that's the next thing I want to clarify, is this a pre run of a record prior to a full press? Why was this done?

Styrene, again we debated the reason for this and one of the reasons given was that during the Vietnam war America suffered a oil shortage and Styrene's where a cheep record?

Also why are there words and phrase scratched into the run out of records? Who did these and why?

an acetate is just what you described, from my knowledge may i add. a laquer disc copied from the original recording, probably on a tape and used to present the tune to the company such as capitol, motown...a sort of demo. or to buyers as motown reps would do due to the fact that the more people who recorded your tunes and your name appearing on the label makes you dollars. the mashed potato (by dee sharp) or money (originally barrett strong) being great examples where other artists would record them. i have copies of agreements that allow this to be done signed by berry gordy.

polystyrene, styrene as we know it, is squirted into a mould, injection moulding, hence the labels are to be stuck on, the stamps and etchings will be the same as the proces detailed below. although many of the readers will know of shellac, the early form of disc, being made up from the resin and crushed lacfer lacca beetle, which was amber in colour, carbon was added for strenghth........and is the only reason, initially, why records were black and again the stamps and etchings will be done in the same way as outlined below..

the numbers etched on discs......(good examples are VIRTUE AND STRAWBERRY, especially the LT on atlantic records, and of course all of the numbers, so see if you can get three records the same to check.) for years as a young kid my mum would play englebert or leapy lea and i used to imagine a fellow sitting there at the end of production line scratching them in one by one after he had kistened to them and be amazed that they were all the same!!!!!!!!!!!! bless.

but then came the vinyl and the production of the 45, eddy arnold "texarkana baby" being the first, number 47-0001a and green in colour, rca decided to produce a different colour for each genre, ie, yellow for kids, cerise for r& b, red for international etc, 7 colours in all, i will try an attachment. but quite rightly as you pointed out, the korean war brought a halt to a lot of things, chlorine, another important product in the production of a record was also in short supply. the production process was similar in that the disc was cut at the recording session or from a tape. it is at this point where the disc is stamped or etched. it identifies the track. then the other track for the b side is done or taken from back catalogue, remember it will also have been etched an appears on every record made from this "lacquer", but maybe not with a record number. the newly cut disc, etch/stamp et al is then coated with silver nitrate and then dipped in chloride which is then washed off leaving an ultra thin layer and then it is built up a bit thicker and stronger so you have a negative silver latter. a positive called "a mother" is produced then another negative is also produced these all have the same stamps and etches. it is this negative that is used to press the record. the bside plate, the b side label then the vinyl biscuit the the a side lable and plate. then the record is literally pressed. i recall in the seventies seeing a programme whereby 5 records were pressed from one sheet of vinyl, i can only assume the pevious capture methods were used and a number of negative plates made, again remember the stamp and the etch is going to be the same as they were done on the original cut. rca release the first 45 rpm in 1949 and they had a numbering system that included the previous recording on a 78. no dates appear on these 45`s so a good way to date a record is to look at the serial number, generally something like TKPM 8944, to take the letter L as being 1960 and work back or forth so j is 1958 and m is 1961, leave out the letters that look like numbers.......I,O AND Q. they only started this at F in 1955.

so dean courtney, ill always need you. number TPKM 7572 was released in.......................1966.

just a little p.s. writers got mechanical rights for songs so if you had an a and a b side you were sort of made, never mind they werent played. so sometimes as an inducement berry gordy would offer bsides to guys and is probably the reason for such dire tracks as custers last man by popcorn wylie. on the other hand if it was felt it was a monster track then the owner of the record company could ask as part of his fees to have his name added to the song credits, elvis did this many times.

i hope this helps answer your question and hasnt come across as conciet, its just something i love....................anorack you see

checkout the attachment of the first 45s.

Terms and Definitions....posted on KTF many moons ago and I've reposted on here several times. Some of it might be of use to some...

These are terms and definitions that are common and not so common to the

record collecting and record selling community.

Styrene (properly, Polystyrene).

Hard, relatively inflexible plastic used to press records, mainly 7-inch

singles, mainly using the Injection Moulding process. The material is heated

to a liquid form and is then squirted or injected into the closed stampers

in the press. This requires that the labels be either glued or painted on

after the record leaves the press. The cost savings to the manufacturer

comes from the extended life of the stampers because of the lack of a

heating cycle to the stampers. The material can also be reused without

noticeable change to its moulding properties. Styrene records will therefore

usually have very quiet surfaces when found in an UNPLAYED Mint condition,

but unfortunately they will wear to a noisy condition rapidly, especially if

played with a bad stylus or an improperly tracking tone arm. They also are

more prone to Cue Burn. The Columbia Records Pittman, New Jersey pressing

plant was once the major source of Injection Moulded Styrene pressings, and

pressings from this plant are found on MANY small labels. Look for the

glued-on labels. Painted-on labels can be found on records from the

Amy/Bell/Mala group.

Vinyl (properly Polyvinyl Chloride).

Relatively flexible material used since the early 1930s to make

non-breakable records. Its fumes are an acknowledged carcinogen, so don't

breathe in deeply when you have your next holy burning of Beatles or

back-masked devil-worship records. :-) Usually pressed by Compression

Moulding which allows the label to be an integral part of the pressing

itself. This process also requires that there be extra material which spills

out the sides of the press, therefore this extra material is routinely

ground up and re-used. Because vinyl does not re-heat and re-cool to a

smooth, glossy surface, the excessive use of re-grind mixed in with Virgin

Vinyl can account for the inherently noisy surface of even unplayed Mint

examples of the cheap pressings that some record companies used. Noise can

be seen AND HEARD by looking at and/or playing the un-grooved surface of the

lead-in and lead-out areas. If this area looks or sounds grainy, then the

grooves will also have some of this grainy background sound. The stampers

used for the compression moulding process will start to break down after

only 1,000 pressings because they are forced to expand and contract when

heated by steam at the start of the pressing cycle and then cooled to

solidify the record. Some companies routinely overused their stampers for

their pop record series.

Dynaflex.

Ultra-thin pressings of high-grade Virgin Vinyl introduced by RCA Victor in

late 1969. Although considered crap by most collectors because they do not

seem flat when held, they actually have much quieter surfaces then most of

the popular records pressed by RCA in the mid-to-late-1960s due to the

extraordinarily high percentage of Re-grind Vinyl used in all but it's Red

Seal, Vintage Series, and Original Cast pressings. Dynaflex was also less

prone to breakage and permanent warp-age in shipment. Its lighter weight

reduced shipping costs and allowed for the use of a higher grade of Vinyl

because less material was required. They were supposed to lie flat on the

turntable due to their own weight, but RCA forgot that many people had

changers with 8-inch turntables!

Dynagroove.

Record cutting system introduced by RCA Victor in 1962 that supposedly

reduced tracking distortion by computer controlling cutting characteristics

to overcome the imagined faults of playback equipment. Considered a disaster

by everyone except the New York Times writer Hans Fantel who wrote the blurb

inserted in all of the early pressings, it brought the golden age of RCA

Victor Living Stereo to a screeching halt. Because there is a possibility

that this system was used on later re-masterings of the early Living Stereo

records, collectors try to obtain only early pressings of these

masterpieces--usually called Shaded Dogs. The words Stereo-Orthophonic

are on the record label and sometimes the cover of the good Living Stereo

albums.

Acetate/Lacquer

Is usually a reference cut that is made on ultra high-grade methyl cellulose

sprayed onto thick aluminium discs. Reference acetates are primarily to make

certain the record will sound somewhat like the tape. Often they are also

made to allow a club or radio disc-jockey to play the music on turntables

before it has been pressed as a normal record. Acetate is a misnomer. It is

actually a Lacquer, but since so many people call these acetates, both will

be used here.

Alternate take

At a recording session more than one take (recorded version) may be kept on

file for future use. What is considered the best take at the time is usually

used for the commercial release. Sometimes a different take is used for a

compilation album or in really rare cases the first recording that was

issued is pulled and an alternate take from the same session is used. When

this happens a lot of people will think there is something different about

that song. This was done with a 50s record from Whirling Disc records. It

was Whirling Disc 107 and the songs were I Really Love You/What Do You

Do by The Channels. After a couple of months in release, Bobby Robinson

(the owner) for whatever reason, used two different takes (one for each

side) from the same session for subsequent releases. Anyone that has heard

both records (I have both) can tell the difference between the two in a

minute. The most famous of all is the Bob Dylan, Positively 4th Street 45

on Columbia. For some reason, some copies of the commercial 45 were issued

with a version of Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window instead of Positively 4th Street The funny thing is that Dylan's next release on

Columbia Can you please crawl out your window was a different take than

the mistake on Positively....

Test pressing

A test pressing is sent back to the cutting engineer, producer and

sometimes the performer, to confirm that the pressings will sound as

intended. Most TP's are really just early pressings, frequently without

artwork of any kind, and they are serviced to whoever as early promo's. In

many cases this was done to rush the record out to radio stations to try and

get immediate airplay before the complete label could be finished.

Original Label

This refers to the company that first issued a certain record. A lot of

times small labels will have a record that will become very popular and they

cannot meet the sales demand. In a lot of cases the master is sold or leased

to a larger record company and the record is released on the larger

company's own label. Also look at the small label examples under Reissue.

All of these fall under Original label.

First Pressing

The way the record first came out on a certain label. Examples: The first

pressing of Sixty Minute Man by the Dominoes came out on Gold top Federal.

The first pressing of Church Bells May Ring by the Willows came out as

Church Bells Are Ringing and all that was changed a few weeks later was

the title. The label design and color remained the same.

Reissue

There are several types of reissues. There is the budget reissue. This falls

into the K-tell, design, forum and etc labels. These are discount labels

that got the permission to use the original master to issue songs (usually

hits) later as discount compilations. Then there is the reissue that is just

a later issue that isn't a budget item. Labels that can fit here are:

Collectibles, Eric, Rhino and etc. And then there is the other type reissue.

A record that was originally pressed on a small label (see Original label

above) and then was picked up by a major or by a big independent. Examples:

Question Mark; The Mysterians--96 Tears. First recorded for Pa-go-go. It

was picked up by Cameo/Parkway and reissued on Cameo. At The Hop, Danny

and the Juniors--original on Singular with a count-off intro. It was then

picked up by ABC Paramount and the intro was deleted. Short Shorts, the

Royal Teens--original on Power but the hit was on ABC Paramount after ABC

picked it up from Power and reissued it on their own label. The Motley

Crue's first album originally came out on Leather and then was picked up and

reissued on Elektra.

Re-release

A record that was out of print for a certain period of time and the original

company decides to put it back into their catalog of available items.

Re-number

Taking a currently available record and re-numbering it.

Re-recording

A song that was originally recorded by an artist for one label and then was

re-recorded and issued later by another label (Sometimes the original label

will record the same song by the artist years later). Examples: Roy Orbison

and the Teen Kings. Ooby Dooby--originally recorded for Je-wel records and

was later re-recorded and issued on Sun. Penguins--Earth Angel (Will You Be

Mine)--Originally recorded by the Penguins and released by Dootone records.

Re-recorded and issued later on Mercury.

Revision/RE

To RCA Victor it means that something was revised, a credit was changed, the

layout of the cover was changed, something simple like that. Sometimes the

first pressings of the record has an RE. They did their changes even before

issuing and felt it important enough to note it. You see things like this in

the RCA files. This is the meaning of RE on the back of some of the RCA

albums.

Cover

The same song issued by another artist at about the same time as the first

record. This was done to cover up or take away sales from the first

record. Timeliness was important in issuing cover records. Many times in

the 50s the cover record was by a white artist covering a song by a

black artist or black group. If the white artist or group was successful,

the black artists record either died, or did not sell very well outside R &

B circles. Examples: are: Sh-boom The Chords covered by the Crew-Cuts. The

Crew-Cuts far outsold The Chords. Wheel Of Fortune by the Cardinals was

covered by Kay Starr. Starr far outsold the Cardinals. Remake--A song done

later-on by another artist. This was not timely enough to be called a

cover record. Examples: Hound Dog Big Mama Thornton remade a few years

later by Elvis. The Train Kept a-Rollin', orignally by Tiny Bradshaw.

Remade a few years later by the Rock'n Roll Trio. Remade again in the mid

60s by The Yardbirds. Louie Louie Richard Berry in the mid 50s. Remade by

the Kingsmen in the early 60s and then by 9 million other artists.

Master Numbers/Matrix Numbers.

These terms (interchangeable) are used for the side identification number

for each side of a record. It is usually printed on the label and is also in

the dead wax of a record. I think it was also the catalog number given to

each recorded song of a record label. RCA, Columbia and Epic had special

alphabetical prefixes for their master numbers. Dated master numbers. Some

labels for a time put a date at the beginning of their master numbers. This

would show the releases for that year. The next year would start at the

bottom of the numbering sequence. Labels that did this were: VJ, Tollie,

M-G-M and Cub. RCA also did this from the late 40 to the early 60s. They

used a letter and a number to denote the date. D8 would be 1948; E4 was

1954. In 1956 they changed again with F being 1956, G being 1957 and H being

1958. And they skipped I for 1959.

Machine Stamped

A lot of labels used perfect die cut letters to put the master numbers and

pressing numbers in the dead wax of their records. This is different than

the hand written numbers that some companies used. In a lot of cases this

can be used to a certain degree of certainty in determining a counterfeit

with U. S. pressings. Some companies that had machine stamped master numbers

were: RCA, Decca, Coral, Brunswick, Capitol. Columbia, Liberty, Laurie and

Rust. Atlantic had the numbers usually hand written, but somewhere in the

dead wax had AT---machine stamped, but once in awhile it was handwritten.

Lead-in groove.

This is the silent area at the beginning of a record.

Cue-up area

This is the area where a disc jockey cues up the record so that the music

will start as soon as he starts the turntable. With the stylus on the record

the disc jockey moves the record back and forth over the same area to get

the desired start-up point.

Cueing scratch/Cue burn

A common phenomenon with 45s that were cued-up by disc jockeys. In most

cases there is either a hiss or a loss of fidelity in the first few

revolutions of the record. Dead Wax--Also known as the trail-off groove and

lead-out area. Also known as the run-off area. The area between the end of

the recording and the label.

Delta number

In July of 1954 an independent pressing plant in Los Angeles, called Monarch

Records started putting a Delta (triangle) with a number next to it in the

dead wax of each record that they pressed. This is the way that they kept

track of the order of items pressed. Each side had it's own Delta number.

Repaired Seam

In a lot of cases the edge seam on album covers, EP covers and picture

sleeves become split. This is a designation to show that this has been

repaired. Sometimes this is done by gluing the ends together and sometimes

tape is used to close the split.

Colored wax (this is actually colored vinyl)

Several companies in the early 50s used color vinyl on some of their 45

issues. These are normally a lot rarer and more sought after than the normal

black vinyl release. Some examples: King--Blueish green for its R&B series,

and red vinylfor its maroon label country series. Federal--Same blueish

green vinyl as King Chance--Red vinyl Vee Jay--Red vinyl Gotham--Pink vinyl

Jubilee--Red vinyl Imperial--purple vinyl And the most famous of the 60s

labels to issue white label promos on colored wax. Columbia with the

following known colors: Red vinyl, green vinyl, blue vinyl, yellow vinyl and

purple vinyl.

Timing strip

This is usually found glued to the front of promo copies of albums. This

shows the song titles and playing times for each cut on the album. These can

take up a small space at the bottom of an album or can take up to half of

the album cover at the bottom. Gatefold--An album cover, EP cover or Picture

sleeve that opens up like a gate. Sometimes has records that fit in both

open ends.

Vinyl Junkie

A record collector that has the collecting fever so bad that nothing else

really matters. He/she plans his/her vacations around looking for records.

He/she spends his/her weekends going to the usual swap meets, garage sales

and record meets. He/she spends hours on the phone and internet with fellow

record collectors.

Lunched

A term used by the old time R & B collectors to denote a record that is so

beat up that it has no redeeming value. This came from seeing a record that

was so trashed that you thought somebody tried eating it for lunch.

Break-in record

A record that usually has a story line and has a lot of segments of

different records mixed in. In most cases the records used are current of

that time period. This form was first popularlized by Bill Buchanan and

Dicke Goodman otherwise known as Buchanan and Goodman.

Answer record

A record that is usually a response to another record, usually a hit. This

is usually done by a different artist, not by the original artist. Examples:

Duke of Earl, Duchess of Earl, Mother in-law---Son in-law Oh Carol;Oh Neil,A Boy Named Sue;A Girl Named Johnny Cash and so on.

Kiddie Record

These were usually records that were put out for children by the big labels.

In the early 50s they came out in both 45 and 78 form. RCA had the Little

Nipper Series. Decca had theChildren's Series and Capitol had the Bozo Approved series and the Record Reader series where you followed along in

a booklet attached between the covers, and read along while the record

played. RCA also had versions of this.

Bootleg

(Bootleg is also incorrectly and improperly used as a synonym of counterfeit

and reproduction). An illegal pressing of a record that was recorded at a

concert and does not have the band or record company's permission to do so.

Can also be used to describe illegally pressed music from a company's vaults

that was acquired without the record company's permission. The term was also

used with 50s and 60s 45 rpm collectors as exact reproduction and forgery.

Counterfeit

Also known as bootleg, also known as a repro--(Bootleg and Repro are

commonly used but wrongly used terms)This is a record that was illegally

remade to look and sound like the original issue. This is usually done by

making a tape of a regular pressing of an original copy of one of the

records and then pressing this up on vinyl. Most of these types are made up

to look exactly like the original with the same artwork and label design.

The counterfeiter does not show any distinction between his forgery and the

original (Once in awhile the bootlegger will make a subtle change to the

label to let collectors know his record is in fact a counterfeit--Henry

Mariano used to scratch in the current year into the deadwax of his

counterfeits).

Repro

Reproduction--Same as Counterfeit. An exact copy of a record done without

permission of the original record company or without permission of the owner

of the master recording.

Radio Spots

Promotional Adverstising records that went to radio stations. These were

mainly records that had a few one minute (or so) spots plugging a product or

even a current movie.

Studio Tracks

Film or cast music which has been re-recorded [i. e. not an original

soundtrack taken directly from the film/cast, even if featuring the same

cast, musicians or orchestra

The above are actually taken from the excellent website https://vinylville.tripod.com/faq.html, and i'd suggest that anybody with a genuine interest in vinyl record collecting have a good look round very interesting reading and well worth a couple of hours if you're bored of an evening...ps this document is copyright by Norm Katuna 1998, so thought it would be good to acknowledge this excellent reference site.

ps...i actually did get bored at one time and read the whole damn lot..........But i won't harm you.honestly...

Edited March 24, 201015 yr by Brett F

The above are actually taken from the excellent website https://vinylville.tripod.com/faq.html, and i'd suggest that anybody with a genuine interest in vinyl record collecting have a good look round very interesting reading and well worth a couple of hours if you're bored of an evening...ps this document is copyright by Norm Katuna 1998, so thought it would be good to acknowledge this excellent reference site.

cheers Brett, couldn't remember where it came from or who actually posted it originally on KTF, it would have been back in the late 90's probably.

cheers Brett, couldn't remember where it came from or who actually posted it originally on KTF, it would have been back in the late 90's probably.

Bloody Hell, that told us all...no grey area there !! laughs Mal

Bloody Hell, that told us all...no grey area there !! laughs Mal

Indeed some great info on this thread.

Anothing interesting fact is that in the NY area (if I remember correctly) rather than drill a hole in dead stock a dab of gold paint was used. I'm sure everyone has a 45 with gold paint on it. I'd always thought the records I had with this had come from the one collection until told otherwise.

Acetates are just to run off a track to listen back to. The master/stamper is what they use to press the record. Then they make a test presing, then a demo, then an issue.

I've seen the you tube before, excellent stuff, but would you be able to play the master on a 'home' turntable, they seem to be floppy, similar to those freebies they gave away in the 70's NME etc, so i'm assuming you could?

Run-out Groove

Can we throw any light on the scratched in words and phrases found on the run out grooves.

When did this first appear? Was this done for any other reason other than an "I was here" message?

Does the inclusion of any of these scratched messages give validity to any records and do the have any impact on value?

I had a scratched message on one of my rarer seventies records that said "Kill them all, Simon"

I did hear a record collector once tell that he could see if there was a fake or an original via the words? Surely then the first thing to do when faking is to scratch a disc.

Also the amount of time it must take to grab a single, scratch into it then place it back in the production should make this phenomena quite rare, but it is not?

So let's settle this the acetate is the first cut (a reference press), then the stamper disc is taken from the acetate, from that the initial presses are made...test press, demo, issue..

Right ...Yes????

Run-out Groove

Can we throw any light on the scratched in words and phrases found on the run out grooves.

When did this first appear? Was this done for any other reason other than an "I was here" message?

Does the inclusion of any of these scratched messages give validity to any records and do the have any impact on value?

I had a scratched message on one of my rarer seventies records that said "Kill them all, Simon"

I did hear a record collector once tell that he could see if there was a fake or an original via the words? Surely then the first thing to do when faking is to scratch a disc.

Also the amount of time it must take to grab a single, scratch into it then place it back in the production should make this phenomena quite rare, but it is not?

I'm assuming its just the master engineer who makes the markings, they were human after all, perhaps some had a sense of humour or got bored and added things to liven up the work day, after all, just looking at the clips posted it seems a laborious job pressing a record doesn't it. I'm a decorator by trade and we used to leave messages on bare walls before they were papered, and leave small messages on high roofs etc, all for future generations to discover...

By the way check Dave Flynns excellent site (i know Daves on the forum, but surprising how people miss things like this)

https://www.anorakscorner.com/PressingPlantInfo.html

and just to reiterate this excellent site..

https://vinylville.tripod.com/faq.html

By the way Imber Boy (sorry not sure of your real name!)

The deadwax is invaluable in documenting what are genuine presses as opposed to re-issues and bootlegs, it can be a minefield, but something like the latest Manship guide can really help, plus this forum has an immense body of knowledge, so asking a question can usually get good results.

Brett "Imber Boy" is me maiden name.

So let's settle this the acetate is the first cut (a reference press), then the stamper disc is taken from the acetate, from that the initial presses are made...test press, demo, issue..

Right ...Yes????

Not right. If a stamper could be created directly from an acetate (a lacquer) you wouldn't have the option to create further identical stampers to press more records because (1) the lacquer is destroyed in the process, and (2) stampers can only press about 1000 records before they start to wear out ...and they can easily break of course.

That's why there are several other processes in between the lacquer and stamper stages.

The first stage is cutting a lacquer (acetate) on a lathe. The lacquer (which is "positive") is really the first master in this process. Whatever is cut onto the lacquer will end up on the final pressings, including written or stamped inscriptions. Nothing can be changed so it has to be perfect and obviously at the right size and speed etc. This lacquer isn't a reference copy but acetates are often used for that purpose.

The lacquer then goes through various plating processes - generally known as galvanics - from which a thin negative film is created. The film is then treated before a metal plate (which is another "positive") is created from it. Negatives and positives are sometimes called "mothers" and "fathers". The metal positive is basically a hard replica of the original softer lacquer and the final stamper is created from it - the stamper being negative of course.

The stamper is the final tool (or die) which is set in the press (in pairs of course, one for each side) to make the final records. You can only press so many copies (usually 1000 or so) before stampers become worn so further sets are made (or "grown" as they say) from the metal positives.

This basic processes can differ slightly depending if you want "one step" or "two step" plating etc ("one step" processing will yield just one pair of stampers, i.e. for just one batch of pressings) and things are also a bit different for DMM (direct metal mastering) which entails cutting directly onto copper plates rather than lacquers. Copper masters are more expensive but they eliminate a process in the galvanics stage and produce higher quality records - although some people say they sound a bit harsh.

Just think of negatives and positives as mirror images of each other so your final product (every copy) will be an exact replica of that first lacquer - and you also have options to make further plates or stampers for further pressings or in case of stamper damage - or even to send extra stampers or plates to other pressing plants.

It's easier to visualise it so have a browse on youtube and focus on the processing stages.

Thanks for that Paul, a very detailed explanation, i'll have to read through it several times, before i fully 'get it', i'm one of those inquisitive types who must know how something works, it'll take time but i will nail it.

ps.re the Archie Hodge offer.ill settle for the £700 it books at Paul, i'll accept paypal or cash....

I'm assuming its just the master engineer who makes the markings, they were human after all, perhaps some had a sense of humour or got bored and added things to liven up the work day, after all, just looking at the clips posted it seems a laborious job pressing a record doesn't it. I'm a decorator by trade and we used to leave messages on bare walls before they were papered, and leave small messages on high roofs etc, all for future generations to discover...

Hello again,

Yes it's the cutting engineer who makes inscriptions in lacquers, but further inscriptions (written or stamped) can also be added at other stages - at plating plants and pressing plants. That's why some records have various markings, some done in the cutting room and others added at later stages. And when duplicate lacquers, plates or stampers are sent out to other plants you often get even more inscriptions added.

One thing is certain, Brett, I've never heard of anyone using a paint brush to "inscribe" a matrix number onto a lacquer ...on the other hand, I've never heard of anyone decorating a wall with a sharp engraving tool!

By the way, have you noticed that it was far more common in the UK for a cutting engineer to inscribe his own name (and message) onto a lacquer rather than the name of the mastering studio? I can't think of many American engineers who did this, apart from people such as Gilbert Kong, Dennis King, Allen Zentz and Jose Rodriguez (who at least used their initials) but there were loads of UK engineers who did it ...Jack Adams (JA or Jacko) at Tape One, George Pekham (Porky), Dennis Blackham (Bilbo), Simon Davey (Nomis), Nick Webb at Abbey Road and others.

Some of my Ardent and Zing singles had some daft messages in there. It seemed important at the time but it feels a bit stupid now.

One thing I like about styrene records pressed at the Viewlex / Monarch plant is that you can easily work out approximate mastering dates because their numbering system was so consistent. I know it seems a bit "sad" but I really like to know what year a record was made and so many American 45s didn't have dates on their labels.

And with the old EMI UK pressings you can even work out from their letter code which batch of stampers was used to press the record. Some collectors search out copies with the "G" stamp to get a copy from the first batch. Again, it might be a bit "sad" to some people but it all adds interest.

I'm off to look at some run-out grooves now.

Thanks for that Paul, a very detailed explanation, i'll have to read through it several times, before i fully 'get it', i'm one of those inquisitive types who must know how something works, it'll take time but i will nail it.

ps.re the Archie Hodge offer.ill settle for the £700 it books at Paul, i'll accept paypal or cash....

Brett, if I had an original copy I would probably pay more than that just to get rid of it!

By the way, I still have an unplayed Grapevine promo copy if you need one. It was just for quality control purposes of course, I never had any intention of ever playing it.

Hello again,

Yes it's the cutting engineer who makes inscriptions in lacquers, but further inscriptions (written or stamped) can also be added at other stages - at plating plants and pressing plants. That's why some records have various markings, some done in the cutting room and others added at later stages. And when duplicate lacquers, plates or stampers are sent out to other plants you often get even more inscriptions added.

One thing is certain, Brett, I've never heard of anyone using a paint brush to "inscribe" a matrix number onto a lacquer ...on the other hand, I've never heard of anyone decorating a wall with a sharp engraving tool!

By the way, have you noticed that it was far more common in the UK for a cutting engineer to inscribe his own name (and message) onto a lacquer rather than the name of the mastering studio? I can't think of many American engineers who did this, apart from people such as Gilbert Kong, Dennis King, Allen Zentz and Jose Rodriguez (who at least used their initials) but there were loads of UK engineers who did it ...Jack Adams (JA or Jacko) at Tape One, George Pekham (Porky), Dennis Blackham (Bilbo), Simon Davey (Nomis), Nick Webb at Abbey Road and others.

Some of my Ardent and Zing singles had some daft messages in there. It seemed important at the time but it feels a bit stupid now.

One thing I like about styrene records pressed at the Viewlex / Monarch plant is that you can easily work out approximate mastering dates because their numbering system was so consistent. I know it seems a bit "sad" but I really like to know what year a record was made and so many American 45s didn't have dates on their labels.

And with the old EMI UK pressings you can even work out from their letter code which batch of stampers was used to press the record. Some collectors search out copies with the "G" stamp to get a copy from the first batch. Again, it might be a bit "sad" to some people but it all adds interest.

I'm off to look at some run-out grooves now.

Can we have some examples of those found on Northernsoul records please?

I have enjoyed being definitively corrected by the way but have one last question, why are they called "ACETATES"?

What this whole discussion inadvertently highlights is the superiority of digital.

In each of the stages from recording onto multi track tape to bouncing it down to 1/4" tape to cutting the master acetate, to making the mothers to making the stampers to pressing the vinyl (I may have missed out one or two), sound quality is lost. Now with digitally remastered sound you can get it directly from multi track tapes (if they exist) and at least five generations of sound quality reductions are avoided (bouncing digitally does not reduce quality).

it's still down to the skill of the post production engineer to get the optimum sound and EQ from a tape and if there's a monmkey in charge of that it can easily sound worse than the 45. At Ace we have our own post production studios who have had decades of experience in getting the right sound from such tapes.

To summarise if you want the best sound at your all nighter install CD players (or a laptop) and play properly master sourced digital tracks.

nb if the CD is from a crap company that only dubs from original discs as they don't have the rights or expertise to handle tape correctly, they will sound worse than the 45 as that's dubbing is a further generation of sound quality lost.

What this whole discussion inadvertently highlights is the superiority of digital.

In each of the stages from recording onto multi track tape to bouncing it down to 1/4" tape to cutting the master acetate, to making the mothers to making the stampers to pressing the vinyl (I may have missed out one or two), sound quality is lost. Now with digitally remastered sound you can get it directly from multi track tapes (if they exist) and at least five generations of sound quality reductions are avoided (bouncing digitally does not reduce quality).

it's still down to the skill of the post production engineer to get the optimum sound and EQ from a tape and if there's a monmkey in charge of that it can easily sound worse than the 45. At Ace we have our own post production studios who have had decades of experience in getting the right sound from such tapes.

To summarise if you want the best sound at your all nighter install CD players (or a laptop) and play properly master sourced digital tracks.

nb if the CD is from a crap company that only dubs from original discs as they don't have the rights or expertise to handle tape correctly, they will sound worse than the 45 as that's dubbing is a further generation of sound quality lost.

Ady.................... Grenade...................

Ady I spent all day trying to get a record identified, it turned out to be Tranells - Blessed with a love.

It turns out to be a two thousand pound record so next time I hear it I will be mindful of the fact that its either a pressing or that the DJ has forked out a substantial wedge in order for me to throw my little fat shapes too, this for me, adds to the who experience of going to a top class allnighter, not telling you anything you don't already know and advocate here.

You are no doubt right in what you say but I kinda suspect that most top venues stick to wax and we don't condone electronic media on the whole as those less interested in High Quality would just use this as an excuse to sling on a laptop?

Besides, I don't mind a bit of snap crackle and pop when I'm dancing to a vintage disc.