The debate on the Javells post regarding black soul v white soul really got me thinking, and relating the differing views to my 27 years on the scene. I like to think that soul music is as diverse as the people who listen to it and buy the music - but wherever you go, there will always be a blinkered cross-section of people (OK, soul snobs if you want), namely:

- Those who refuse to acknowledge "white" records as soul, and will refuse to listen, buy, or even dance to them.

- Those who refuse to have anything to do with soul sounds that don't originate from certain states of the USA, or from the USA as a whole.

- Those who hastily write off all blue-eyed soul as pop.

And, on the same hand...

Those who are so blinkered and narrow-minded that they refuse to open their minds or even listen to other types of music other than soul (who even go as far as slating R&B as "rock n' roll" in a derogatory sense), or records that sell for over, say, the £300 price tag.

I'm sure there are some that will only listen to records by white artists, but I guess it's safe to say that they are a different entity who have no place on the scene!

So, how about a list of "white" records that have always been greately revered on the soul scene, many of which are personal favourites of mine. Which of these are yours?

THE MARTELLS: Where Can My Baby Be

THE DEADBEATS: No Second Chance

THE MODS: Dry My Eyes

DEAN COURTNEY: I'll Always Need You

BOBBY PARIS: I Walked Away

GARY SOL'E: Holdin' On

TONY COLTON: I Stand Accused

MARK LOYD: When I'm Gonna Find Her

LYNNE RANDELL: Stranger In My Arms

B J THOMAS & THE TRIUMPHS: Keep It Up

THE BUCK ROGERS MOVEMENT: Take It From Me Girl

JOANNIE SOMMERS: Don't Pity Me

ROCK CANDY / CONTEMPLATIONS: Alone With No Love (I'm assuming it's white)

NICKY JAMES: So Glad We Made It

STEVE ALDO: YOu're Absolutely Right

THE SEVEN SOULS: I Still Love You (bearing in mind the 50-50 mix of black and white in the group)

THE TEMPESTS: Just about anything they've committed to vinyl (and yes, I know Hazell Martin is a black singer!)

I'd take a safe guess that there is at least one record or artist here that would be a fave of anyone pigeon-holed in the categories mentioned above.

So, snobbery, purism, hypocrisy, or just plain narrow-mindedness? What do you think? Would be interesting to see all sides to the debate following this, so let's open the floor......

Edited July 6, 201113 yr by Gene-R

That would make a great playlist anytime Imagine an all white session , funny subject this many of my favorite soul sounds are by white artists although i didnt know tha back in the day .

As I have said on another thread if a sound fits the template then its ok by me . If it quacks like a duck then its a duck

Kev Briscoe and I had a long conversation about Blue-eyed Soul at Soul Essence this year. When I was younger, I too was blinkered as to the acceptance of white singers being soul artists, maybe it was a maturity thing. But, I did have some form of an epiphany when I grudgingly listened to Eddie Hinton's Very Extremely Dangerous LP, after it was recommended to me. That one LP changed my view on what soul music was in an instant. For me Soul is all about emotion and feeling irrespective of colour and there are a few Motown records that don't really do it for me soul wise as IMO they're too poppy. I do still think there is a line between singing soul and singing soulfully as I don't accept the likes of Billy Joel, Hall and Oats and Michael McDonald as soul singers and I'm still in two minds over Dusty Springfield although her Dusty in Memphis LP, is full of goodies.

Also look at some of the names behind some great soul records: Dan Penn, Rick Hall, Steve Cropper, Chips Moman, George Soule and Spooner Oldham to name a few, all these are white, so surely soul can't just be a colour thing.

I suppose at the end of the day, it's down to individual preferences and links back to the eternal questions "What is Northern and what is not?" and "What is Soul and what is not?"

Here are some of my Favourites:

Lou Roberts - Everything You Always Wanted to Know about Love - MGM/SOM

George Soule - Get Involved - Fame

Lindell Hill - Ramone - Arch

Troy Seals - Mama Hold my Hand - Rising Sons

Eddie Hinton - Very Extremely Dangerous - Capricorn LP

Johnny Daye - Stay Baby Stay - Stax

Billy Joe Young - I Had My Heart Set On You - Jewel

Soul Survivors - City Of Brotherly Love - TSOP (Chicano rather than white, but that moves into a completely different direction and I'm sure a different thread....)

Edited July 6, 201113 yr by John Reed

I think this is one of the most moronic, ill informed and pathetic posts ever, and typifies why I f**cking shake my head whenever a Northern fan tries to initiate a debate on soul. Obviously all in my opinion only.

black soul v white soul..... differing views to my 27 years on the scene

There is no white Soul or black Soul there is only Soul music, and until you and some others on here get that in your head then I am going to keep crawling out of retirement in my comfy gin soaked armchair and rant. The knobheads who go on about the colour only are as uninformed as you and your lot. Go and read Peter Guaralnick's fantastic book and come back after that. WTF does 27 years on a dance scene tell you about soul music, go and educate yourself FFS. Why does liking Northern actually mean you have the right to make any judgements on what is Soul, their relationship is sometimes little, lets be honest about that. It appears it was like this in the 70's and it appears again, probably no coincidence that lots of these people who only went for a couple of years in the 70's have suddenly found their faith, under the bed among a pile of sweaty badges.

Some of us actually like both northern and Soul but if you want to talk about Soul don't judge it by the standards of a UK dance scene, WTF would you. And for those of who do like both, unsurprisingly we consider ourselves into Northern Soul and therefore like our music to be at least related to the wider genre at least, therefore like our music to have some soul connection, which obviously some blue eyed does. I do not know any real soul fan who states they do not like any blue eyed music, another anomaly I suspect from a Northern fan trying to be clever, and off course failing.

And off course we are soul snobs, although to me its quality control and it rejects the pure pop pish that you and your like support. It has no place on my Northern scene and never will, it's a taste question, I have it, lots of others have it, you don't. It doesn't mean we all have to agree on that taste but the fact I won't accept it allows you and others to bang on with the soul snob thing. Pathetic, puerile and more about you than it is about me. Its nothing more than quality control to me, when the quality dips, I stop going out and leave it to the DLT fans like you.

Those who refuse to acknowledge "white" records as soul, and will refuse to listen, buy, or even dance to them.

As ill informed as you obviously are, stand them in front of an Eddie Hinton record playing and beat them to a pulp till they get it. Although this to me is either a rare species that exist either not much or are in your imagination to allow you to continue your soul snot tirade, hiding the fact you just don't f****ng get it.

- Those who refuse to have anything to do with soul sounds that don't originate from certain states of the USA, or from the USA as a whole.

WTF is your point here, can I have some of what you are taking please.

Those who are so blinkered and narrow-minded that they refuse to open their minds or even listen to other types of music other than soul (who even go as far as slating R&B as "rock n' roll" in a derogatory sense), or records that sell for over, say, the £300 price tag.

I am a f***ing soul fan, its one of the greatest art forms ever produced, so of course if I could listen to it all the time I would, why should I waste my time on something that is sub quality. I do listen to other stuff, reject it and go back to soul. That in my view is proof of my good taste.

When I go out to dance I want to dance to something that hits the spots on a number of points, and one of them is not being pop sh*te, if that makes me a snob so f****ng what, Get over yourself, there are loads of places that don't have that quality control but do not expect me to go. I repeat, I am soul fan, I want it wherever I go, you don't so lets make sure we are never in same place. Based on this I would hope that was inevitable.

As for the rarity thing, WTF does that have to do with a soul debate. Definitely an issue but f**k all to do with your debate, and quite disturbing you even try to link the two.

So, how about a list of "white" records that have always been greately revered on the soul scene, many of which are personal favourites of mine. Which of these are yours?

I doubt any of these are revered on the soul scene, they maybe on the Northern scene but why won't you get it into your head that there is soul scene that has nothing at all to do with Northern, and more importantly Northern does not define the whole soul scene. Maybe that is all you know but is just arrogant and misguided bullsh*t on your behalf to assume this.

And before you come out with the usual don't get angry/personal, there is no other way to deal with rubbish like this. Not only do you re-write some American history, you attempt to re-write the history of the UK soul scene, really would have expected better from you.

If you want to talk Northern scene off you go, just don't try and call it "the" soul scene.

Edited July 6, 201113 yr by jocko

So, how about a list of "white" records that have always been greately revered on the soul scene, many of which are personal favourites of mine. Which of these are yours?

THE MARTELLS: Where Can My Baby Be

THE DEADBEATS: No Second Chance

THE MODS: Dry My Eyes

DEAN COURTNEY: I'll Always Need You

BOBBY PARIS: I Walked Away

GARY SOL'E: Holdin' On

TONY COLTON: I Stand Accused

MARK LOYD: When I'm Gonna Find Her

LYNNE RANDELL: Stranger In My Arms

B J THOMAS & THE TRIUMPHS: Keep It Up

THE BUCK ROGERS MOVEMENT: Take It From Me Girl

JOANNIE SOMMERS: Don't Pity Me

ROCK CANDY / CONTEMPLATIONS: Alone With No Love (I'm assuming it's white)

NICKY JAMES: So Glad We Made It

STEVE ALDO: YOu're Absolutely Right

THE SEVEN SOULS: I Still Love You (bearing in mind the 50-50 mix of black and white in the group)

THE TEMPESTS: Just about anything they've committed to vinyl (and yes, I know Hazell Martin is a black singer!)

How did Dean take the news that he's turned white? Maybe a bit of a 'Watermellon Man' moment...?

Great post Jock

...who even go as far as slating R&B as "rock n' roll" in a derogatory sense

It is though isn't it?

Dean Courtney ...LOL .. Beat me to it.

Rock Candy / Contemplations were a black group apparently. And their were only 2 white members of the Seven Souls 1 was the guitar player and 1 a horn player

But to answer the question, I personally love blue eyed soul vocals every bit as much as black vocals.

Edited July 6, 201113 yr by dancecrasher

m

I think this is one of the most moronic, ill informed and pathetic posts ever, and typifies why I f**cking shake my head whenever a Northern fan tries to initiate a debate on soul. Obviously all in my opinion only.

There is no white Soul or black Soul there is only Soul music, and until you and some others on here get that in your head then I am going to keep crawling out of retirement in my comfy gin soaked armchair and rant. The knobheads who go on about the colour only are as uninformed as you and your lot. Go and read Peter Guaralnick's fantastic book and come back after that. WTF does 27 years on a dance scene tell you about soul music, go and educate yourself FFS. Why does liking Northern actually mean you have the right to make any judgements on what is Soul, their relationship is sometimes little, lets be honest about that. It appears it was like this in the 70's and it appears again, probably no coincidence that lots of these people who only went for a couple of years in the 70's have suddenly found their faith, under the bed among a pile of sweaty badges.

Some of us actually like both northern and Soul but if you want to talk about Soul don't judge it by the standards of a UK dance scene, WTF would you. And for those of who do like both, unsurprisingly we consider ourselves into Northern Soul and therefore like our music to be at least related to the wider genre at least, therefore like our music to have some soul connection, which obviously some blue eyed does. I do not know any real soul fan who states they do not like any blue eyed music, another anomaly I suspect from a Northern fan trying to be clever, and off course failing.

And off course we are soul snobs, although to me its quality control and it rejects the pure pop pish that you and your like support. It has no place on my Northern scene and never will, it's a taste question, I have it, lots of others have it, you don't. It doesn't mean we all have to agree on that taste but the fact I won't accept it allows you and others to bang on with the soul snob thing. Pathetic, puerile and more about you than it is about me. Its nothing more than quality control to me, when the quality dips, I stop going out and leave it to the DLT fans like you.

As ill informed as you obviously are, stand them in front of an Eddie Hinton record playing and beat them to a pulp till they get it. Although this to me is either a rare species that exist either not much or are in your imagination to allow you to continue your soul snot tirade, hiding the fact you just don't f****ng get it.

WTF is your point here, can I have some of what you are taking please.

I am a f***ing soul fan, its one of the greatest art forms ever produced, so of course if I could listen to it all the time I would, why should I waste my time on something that is sub quality. I do listen to other stuff, reject it and go back to soul. That in my view is proof of my good taste.

When I go out to dance I want to dance to something that hits the spots on a number of points, and one of them is not being pop sh*te, if that makes me a snob so f****ng what, Get over yourself, there are loads of places that don't have that quality control but do not expect me to go. I repeat, I am soul fan, I want it wherever I go, you don't so lets make sure we are never in same place. Based on this I would hope that was inevitable.

As for the rarity thing, WTF does that have to do with a soul debate. Definitely an issue but f**k all to do with your debate, and quite disturbing you even try to link the two.

I doubt any of these are revered on the soul scene, they maybe on the Northern scene but why won't you get it into your head that there is soul scene that has nothing at all to do with Northern, and more importantly Northern does not define the whole soul scene. Maybe that is all you know but is just arrogant and misguided bullsh*t on your behalf to assume this.

And before you come out with the usual don't get angry/personal, there is no other way to deal with rubbish like this. Not only do you re-write some American history, you attempt to re-write the history of the UK soul scene, really would have expected better from you.

If you want to talk Northern scene off you go, just don't try and call it "the" soul scene.

That was the most unnecessary, bile-filled, nasty post I've ever read on here, f*cking disgraceful, just go back to wherever you've been.

Great post Jock

What?

I'm with John Reed and Jocko on this issue. Excellent posts chaps, you put into print my thoughts exactly.

Dean Courtney ...LOL .. Beat me to it.

Rock Candy / Contemplations were a black group apparently. And their were only 2 white members of the Seven Souls 1 was the guitar player and 1 a horn player

But to answer the question, I personally love blue eyed soul vocals every bit as much as black vocals.

Picture sleeve of a Rock Candy single shows them all to be white. Might be a different group.

I'm with John Reed and Jocko on this issue. Excellent posts chaps, you put into print my thoughts exactly.

You really think there was need for that venom being spat out like that?

I'm suprised.

Oh dear Jocko - that time of month is it, or haven't you taken your medication, or were you bullied as a young boy?

All I wanted was to create a healthy debate - not some load of self-righteous bile spouted by someone who thinks they're THE authority on "northern soul" or the big I-am (move over Mr Godin). In general, I think the majority of posts here make way for healthy debate, apart from your inane (boring) ranting, and those who follow you like sheep (many of who aren't even old enough to know what they're agreeing with). And yes Chalky, that means you - as a member of forum staff, and a pillar of society that you try to be, you should hang your head in shame for giving approval and thumbs-up to such an abusive post. You're a disappointment and a total embasrrassement - call yourself a moderator?

Yes, I am one of the DLT fans, and always have been, and I'll always like the other greats who frequented Radio 1 during the 70s.

As for your "I want it wherever I go, you don't so lets make sure we are never in same place. Based on this I would hope that was inevitable" quote, don't make me laugh - you are so childish! You sound more like a lover scorned, or a playground bully. However, I mst say that I'm dazzingly impressed by your psychic powers - how would you know what I want, and what I don't want? You don't even know me, thank God!

Moronic, ill-informed and pathetic? Well, I think you're a highly-strung, self-centred, arrogant, condescending, patronising jumped-up little man who thinks the Northern Soul scene owes you a living, but I don't suffer epileptic fits over it.

And it also serves to remind me that it's people like you that make me glad that I'm no longer part of the "Northern Soul" scene. You can keep it, sir. You may think you look clever with your rants and cheap four-letter insults, but it really does makes you look the complete gibbering idiot that you are.

So perhaps now you should get off your high horse, and crawl back to your gin-soaked armchair.......

Edited July 6, 201113 yr by Gene-R