Sorry if this has been done before but....where and when are your memories of hearing the first "beat ballad"...At an established nighter perhaps.? When was the term first used?

You get the drift,so over to you chaps.

Isn't that exactly why it has to be classed as the 'first' BB played then?....

Well no not really because you also had records like Bobby Bland - Call On Me which were just as slow..that was played as far back as 1966

ray pollard and gene mcdaniels for me too, around 1981, so a bit late perhaps. certainly can't remember them pre 1980. when was walter jackson's uphill climb to the bottom first played in a northern soul environment, early 80s too?

90's more like. Never heard it out. These sort of records were known as "tape swappers" records.

I guess this comes down to whether we are talking about the Pre-Torch era as opposed to the Post-Torch era.

Certainly the 'Pre-Torch' - 'Soul' 'Rare Soul' 'Club Soul' - nights and allnighters (Mojo, Wheel etc.) played slower records; Garnett Mimms 'It Was Easier' 'Cry Baby', Jimmy Radcliffe, Bobby Bland 'Call On Me', various Billy Stewart's, Jackie Edwards 'Feel So Bad', Artistics 'I'm Gonna Miss You', Jerry Jackson 'Rough Out There', Little Anthony 'Hurt So Bad', Ray Pollard, Tams, etc.

But the Torch, Va Va's, Mecca, Wigan etc. accelerated the Pace / Tempo and that became the 'fashion' or 'in-vogue' to the point where anything below 100 mph was virtually unheard of.

Imagine dropping Ray Pollard in alongside Terrible Tom? No way!

'Sapphires 'Gotta Have Your Love' was about the slowest record I would have heard at that time (more of a fingersnapper!). Soon after 'Garnett Mimms 'Looking For You' became a big tune and it was clear there was room to slow the tempo down and still keep a dancefloor.

But Pete is right, the first BIG Post-Torch tune, in a climate of 'Stompers' to be classed as a 'Beat Ballad' was Gene McDaniels 'Walk With a Winner' - (though I would have said I first heard that played out around 76).

Jock, you're right. I often played Barbara McNair at Clifton Hall, in the middle of the night. It was huge and slotted in beautifully, as 3 minutes respite after a 12" Norman Conners or a Skip Mahoney

Love the 'Funky Hunk' handle by the way. Think I'm gonna insist on that on Flyers in future lol

Sean

Edited April 27, 201213 yr by Sean Hampsey

Sean, Gene McD - might have been played locally before the late 77 early 78 period but I never heard it at any big venue.

Sean, Gene McD - might have been played locally before the late 77 early 78 period but I never heard it at any big venue.

Yep, you're right Pete. It would have took a while to break at a Nighter.

We played it locally a helluva lot, in South Yorkshire. Most folk played it off a cheap UA LP. Took me a while to pick up a UK Liberty 45, but even that would have been pre-78.

Think it was big with the Notts lads as well at the time.

Course, that's how many of the Big Nighter sounds got started, out in the field, at club level.

Either way, it was almost certainly the first big 'Post-Torch' Beat Ballad played at an Allnighter.

Sean

Hi Pete, Dave

I'd agree with Ady that the term probably came into its own around Stafford time but the sounds were played long before that. Walk with a winner got discovered 72-73ish. I remember I got a copy early on. The Drifter was long before that. I never got a Ray Pollard but I did get a Don Charles (great version) and a Long John Baldry (not so great). I remember I used to champion Its a sad thing 72-73ish but no one seemed paticularly interested in it then. Incidentally that had UK writer credits--strange. Another was Welcome to Dreamsville which I used to love but circa 73 but no one went for that either. I'd bought it on the strength of the other side, Monkey See, Monkey Do which did get spins at the Wheel. Richard should back all this up. This was Sound Bars era, remember Pete? PS Have you heard that Johnny Beehan died?

RICH

Sorry if this has been done before but....where and when are your memories of hearing the first "beat ballad"...At an established nighter perhaps.? When was the term first used?

You get the drift,so over to you chaps.

the first finisher in Northamptonshire was( everybody go home .Eydie Gorme) and there was ( It keeps rainin'.Fats Domino) and then we have Jimmy Radcliffe.and Ray Pollard. but the godfather of the Beat Ballad has to be (Ben E King.Stand by me) this one has to be the one to copy.issued in 1961.Glenn Bellamy.

HI ALL..... The Term as I am concered, is and was used on the NORTHERN SOUL SCENE used for Walk with a winner, not before then, Its nice to pay homage to Les, however the term Norther Soul was not even being used back then? the Drifter was played at the TWISTED WHEEL along with a host of records, that fell away, only to be rediscoverd, for example most UK releases would have been available to the Wheel DJs however if we take a look at 2 lables $TATESIDE & CAMEO PARKWAY, Mst were played, however RUFUS LUMLEY, HOAGY LANDS, CHUBBY CHECKER 'JUST DON'T NO' were not,

Indeed the word BEAT BALLARD was used in the music world going back to the 1940's by the BIG BAND sound, GLEN MILLER JOE LOSS, as for records like Jimmy Radcliffe, They are better known as enders on thhe Northern Soul Scene, and that catogary has some bizzare records in it to finish the night on, proberbly back in the late 60s the most common ender was Booker T & MG's Green Onions, however Fats Domino Keeps Rainin, was the TORCH ENDER, And in HITCHIN at the DIVE BAR, The DJ Billy MAC would always end the night with Every one go home?? WIGAN had it's 3 before 8, thanks to DAVE EVERSON, and it has become almost impossible to play any of the 3, in a set at any other time then at the end of the night,,

In some way, I do believe that as a descriptive word, to describe certain soul records, would have been lpst, if PETE SMITH, had not used it in the right context, and as I can't think of anyone apart from PETE who stapled the words into the RARE SOUL SCENE, Lke Mr Godins Northern Soul, Petes use of BEAT BALLARS as used on the scene, was first put down in print by PETE SMITH,

As such, thats how the OXFORD DICTIONARY would use it as a definition? unless there is an early referance printed??/

DAVE

So "Walk With A Winner" wasn't a beat ballad when played in the 60's ... BUT WAS a beat ballad when played in the 70's .........

.... WHY, had the track been remixed in the meantime ?!?Q?! ............ CONFUSED OF SOUTH YORKS.

Edited April 29, 201213 yr by Roburt

So "Walk With A Winner" wasn't a beat ballad when played in the 60's ... BUT WAS a beat ballad when played in the 70's .........

.... WHY, had the track been remixed in the meantime ?!?Q?! ............ CONFUSED OF SOUTH YORKS.

It does explain this above, several times, about the sounds changing, the speed or BPM of the records increasing as the Northern scene got older.

Still the same record; if it was a 'beat ballad' in the 70's, then it was the same in the 60's (even if fans of the track didn't call it a beat ballad).

Still the same record; if it was a 'beat ballad' in the 70's, then it was the same in the 60's (even if fans of the track didn't call it a beat ballad).

I'm not arguing with you, if you don't get it then you don't get it.

The term Beat Ballad was already in common use when I started going out in '88.

I do get it, I just think its an idiotic premise.

Going by that rule then .... there were no NS 45's made in the 1960's as none were termed NS cuts when released or at anytime in the 60's.

........ If its NS then it was NS when released in the 60's

If its a beat ballad then it was a BB when released in the 60's.

I do get it, I just think its an idiotic premise.

Going by that rule then .... there were no NS 45's made in the 1960's as none were termed NS cuts when released or at anytime in the 60's.

........ If its NS then it was NS when released in the 60's

If its a beat ballad then it was a BB when released in the 60's.

Yes it's the same record whenever it was released, except if the term hasn't been invented, how can you call it that, at that time?

72-73 when I don,t wanna discuss it, Purple Haze, a little togetherness, hey america inst,this thing called love,were the general tempo I remember The Charts desiree + and every beat of my heart which seemed much slower still filling the floor.

Or is it just my interperation and they,r real stompers?

HI the term Beat Ballard was not the invention of Pete Smith, and I am sure that at some time, TONY HATCH used the term to Jackie Trent, that her latest Ballard that he had written for her, should have a bit of a lift in delivery, with a 4 BPM tempo at 2x that of a standard waltz 4/3, a Ballard with a beat? or a beat with the Ballard? so I am saying is, that professionals who are musicians writers producers arrangers and uncle Tom Cobbley and all, also as written, it could well have been used by the 1940s big bands,

I cant see the term being applied to JAZZ? & again I can't recall DAVID JACOBS or PETE MURRY, Chirping in with 'you are tuned to 208 RADIO TELE LUXEMBURG? The station of the TOP'S in POP'S this week #4 is a really nice BEAT BALLARD from the UK EUROVISION WINNER, TEDDY JOHNSON & PEAL CARR, with 'SING LITTLE BIRDIE' or the LATE JIMMY SAVILLE 'NOW THE NOW THEN BOYS AND GALS out there in the range of the GRAND DUCHEY, hear is a great uptempo beat Ballard GUYS & GALS from the ONE & ONLY Mr LITTLE RICHARD with LUCILE -NOW THEN1 NOW THEN!-

Talk about the records played at the TORCH JUNCTION BLETSOE, by ALAN DAY TONY JEBB or GLEN B, as far as I can recall never used the words, and even the UK first recognised reissue of a popular demand that went to #1, was never ever classed as a Beat Ballard, and before those venue,s did the TWISTED WHEEL DJ use it? I think not, and they played quite a lot of harmony records also a terminology not used, such as the 4 Seasons the Beach Boys?

So to recap! the term was not used back then, and in 72/3 I recall going through warehouses full of record looking for 100 mph records, and as I skimmed the slowish sounds of my mates head saying it was to slow? not here's another of those rare BEAT BALLARDS OLD CHUM! OH YES IT IS ALL COMEING BACK TO ME NOW, INFACT IT'S SO CLEAR, IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY, AT WIGAN IN 1978, THAT GREAT RECORD BY FRANKIE VAUGN. OOPS! GEN McDaniels 'walk with a winner' the one that was never played at the Wheel, that's a great sound.

Yes DAVE it's different bit of a BEAT BALLARD said the top dealers, HOWEVER The story as far as it goes is not until PETE USED THE WORDS TO DESCRIPE MANY RECORDS OF IT'S TYPE, WAS THE FIRST TIME i READ AN IN DEAPH ARTICLE ABOUT IT'S MEANING, EVER IN PRINT, SO AT THIS STAGE AND MOMENT IN TIME, AS FAR AS THE TEARM BEAT BALLARD GOES AND THE CONTEXT IT IS USED, IS THE SAME AS DAVE GODIN PUTTING THE NORTHERN SOUL TERMANOLGY INTO PRINT? AND IT'S HIS BABY, AND SHOULD BE GIVEN RESPECT FOR HIS FORESITE INTO HIS CONTRABUTION TO THE RARE SOUL SCENE!!! THANKS PETE, Dave Kilworth the mouth of truth

Thanks Dave.Always happy for the Dave Godin's of this world to contribute to meanings/definition's.!!! Teddy Johnson and Pearl Carr??..wish i was old enough to remember them Dave..

I do get it, I just think its an idiotic premise.

Going by that rule then .... there were no NS 45's made in the 1960's as none were termed NS cuts when released or at anytime in the 60's.

........ If its NS then it was NS when released in the 60's

If its a beat ballad then it was a BB when released in the 60's.

Only looking for a moment in time Roburt.In relation to the NS scene.In the UK.

And no,there were no NS 45's made in the 60's..because the term hadn't been coined.

As for BB's,well thats all about beats per min.....but on the NS scene...

HI the term Beat Ballard was not the invention of Pete Smith, and I am sure that at some time, TONY HATCH used the term to Jackie Trent, that her latest Ballard that he had written for her, should have a bit of a lift in delivery, with a 4 BPM tempo at 2x that of a standard waltz 4/3, a Ballard with a beat? or a beat with the Ballard? so I am saying is, that professionals who are musicians writers producers arrangers and uncle Tom Cobbley and all, also as written, it could well have been used by the 1940s big bands,

I cant see the term being applied to JAZZ? & again I can't recall DAVID JACOBS or PETE MURRY, Chirping in with 'you are tuned to 208 RADIO TELE LUXEMBURG? The station of the TOP'S in POP'S this week #4 is a really nice BEAT BALLARD from the UK EUROVISION WINNER, TEDDY JOHNSON & PEAL CARR, with 'SING LITTLE BIRDIE' or the LATE JIMMY SAVILLE 'NOW THE NOW THEN BOYS AND GALS out there in the range of the GRAND DUCHEY, hear is a great uptempo beat Ballard GUYS & GALS from the ONE & ONLY Mr LITTLE RICHARD with LUCILE -NOW THEN1 NOW THEN!-

Talk about the records played at the TORCH JUNCTION BLETSOE, by ALAN DAY TONY JEBB or GLEN B, as far as I can recall never used the words, and even the UK first recognised reissue of a popular demand that went to #1, was never ever classed as a Beat Ballard, and before those venue,s did the TWISTED WHEEL DJ use it? I think not, and they played quite a lot of harmony records also a terminology not used, such as the 4 Seasons the Beach Boys?

So to recap! the term was not used back then, and in 72/3 I recall going through warehouses full of record looking for 100 mph records, and as I skimmed the slowish sounds of my mates head saying it was to slow? not here's another of those rare BEAT BALLARDS OLD CHUM! OH YES IT IS ALL COMEING BACK TO ME NOW, INFACT IT'S SO CLEAR, IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY, AT WIGAN IN 1978, THAT GREAT RECORD BY FRANKIE VAUGN. OOPS! GEN McDaniels 'walk with a winner' the one that was never played at the Wheel, that's a great sound.

Yes DAVE it's different bit of a BEAT BALLARD said the top dealers, HOWEVER The story as far as it goes is not until PETE USED THE WORDS TO DESCRIPE MANY RECORDS OF IT'S TYPE, WAS THE FIRST TIME i READ AN IN DEAPH ARTICLE ABOUT IT'S MEANING, EVER IN PRINT, SO AT THIS STAGE AND MOMENT IN TIME, AS FAR AS THE TEARM BEAT BALLARD GOES AND THE CONTEXT IT IS USED, IS THE SAME AS DAVE GODIN PUTTING THE NORTHERN SOUL TERMANOLGY INTO PRINT? AND IT'S HIS BABY, AND SHOULD BE GIVEN RESPECT FOR HIS FORESITE INTO HIS CONTRABUTION TO THE RARE SOUL SCENE!!! THANKS PETE, Dave Kilworth the mouth of truth

F*ck me. Thanks Dave. About time I got a bit of recognition. :lol:

Randy just loved the slow records with a bit of a beat like Arthur Alexander 'I Need You Baby' and Big Dee Irwin 'You Satisfy My Needs' he had his own term for them that he used in his Black Beat column "Smooth E> Groovers" it never caught on lol.

HI the term Beat Ballard was not the invention of Pete Smith, and I am sure that at some time, TONY HATCH used the term to Jackie Trent, that her latest Ballard that he had written for her, should have a bit of a lift in delivery, with a 4 BPM tempo at 2x that of a standard waltz 4/3, a Ballard with a beat? or a beat with the Ballard? so I am saying is, that professionals who are musicians writers producers arrangers and uncle Tom Cobbley and all, also as written, it could well have been used by the 1940s big bands,

I cant see the term being applied to JAZZ? & again I can't recall DAVID JACOBS or PETE MURRY, Chirping in with 'you are tuned to 208 RADIO TELE LUXEMBURG? The station of the TOP'S in POP'S this week #4 is a really nice BEAT BALLARD from the UK EUROVISION WINNER, TEDDY JOHNSON & PEAL CARR, with 'SING LITTLE BIRDIE' or the LATE JIMMY SAVILLE 'NOW THE NOW THEN BOYS AND GALS out there in the range of the GRAND DUCHEY, hear is a great uptempo beat Ballard GUYS & GALS from the ONE & ONLY Mr LITTLE RICHARD with LUCILE -NOW THEN1 NOW THEN!-

Talk about the records played at the TORCH JUNCTION BLETSOE, by ALAN DAY TONY JEBB or GLEN B, as far as I can recall never used the words, and even the UK first recognised reissue of a popular demand that went to #1, was never ever classed as a Beat Ballard, and before those venue,s did the TWISTED WHEEL DJ use it? I think not, and they played quite a lot of harmony records also a terminology not used, such as the 4 Seasons the Beach Boys?

So to recap! the term was not used back then, and in 72/3 I recall going through warehouses full of record looking for 100 mph records, and as I skimmed the slowish sounds of my mates head saying it was to slow? not here's another of those rare BEAT BALLARDS OLD CHUM! OH YES IT IS ALL COMEING BACK TO ME NOW, INFACT IT'S SO CLEAR, IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY, AT WIGAN IN 1978, THAT GREAT RECORD BY FRANKIE VAUGN. OOPS! GEN McDaniels 'walk with a winner' the one that was never played at the Wheel, that's a great sound.

Yes DAVE it's different bit of a BEAT BALLARD said the top dealers, HOWEVER The story as far as it goes is not until PETE USED THE WORDS TO DESCRIPE MANY RECORDS OF IT'S TYPE, WAS THE FIRST TIME i READ AN IN DEAPH ARTICLE ABOUT IT'S MEANING, EVER IN PRINT, SO AT THIS STAGE AND MOMENT IN TIME, AS FAR AS THE TEARM BEAT BALLARD GOES AND THE CONTEXT IT IS USED, IS THE SAME AS DAVE GODIN PUTTING THE NORTHERN SOUL TERMANOLGY INTO PRINT? AND IT'S HIS BABY, AND SHOULD BE GIVEN RESPECT FOR HIS FORESITE INTO HIS CONTRABUTION TO THE RARE SOUL SCENE!!! THANKS PETE, Dave Kilworth the mouth of truth

The term definitely goes way back.

This from Billboard Magazine in 1950.

(May need to click to enlarge.)

warbling warbers, love it

The term definitely goes way back.

This from Billboard Magazine in 1950.

(May need to click to enlarge.)

Don't think anyone's disputing it's old terminology. Seen loads of old singles reviews in NME, BIllboard etc where they use it.

Randy just loved the slow records with a bit of a beat like Arthur Alexander 'I Need You Baby' and Big Dee Irwin 'You Satisfy My Needs' he had his own term for them that he used in his Black Beat column "Smooth E> Groovers" it never caught on lol.

Yep - And Big Maybelle 'Oh Lord' also, all 'Smooth E-Groover's of the highest order!

Yep - And Big Maybelle 'Oh Lord' also, all 'Smooth E-Groover's of the highest order!

That is one of only a handful, and I mean three or four maybe, that could reduce me to tears if I listened to it hard enough. The emotion in her voice is almost unbearable.

Another one is The Long And Winding Road by The Beatles but thats because it was my daughters favourite record and it's now been 10 years since I've seen her - I still can't listen to that song.

===

check that lp again mikey..sure its not on that one bud...

It was a great LP indeed, but I think that Walk With A Winner was on an LP called 'Sold On Soul' on United Artists, that track stood out from the rest, mostly due to the fact that it was very much a slow-build beat ballad, whilst the rest of the album was generally more uptempo.

You are right guys. Sold On Soul. Another cracking LP

:hatsoff2:HI ALL After the events of last week, with a few faces I have not seen in years, and the fact, more people know me as DtheDRUG? rather than TAFFY DAD, My blood pressure has gone stupid on me, reading 81/62 hb51, alarming! So it was good that, some sort of conclusion has been reached about the term BEAT BALLARD, on our UK SOUL SCENE, that introduced to the world, from the writings of Dave Godin NORTHERN SOUL, That in the context that Dave wrote that, and the point that I have made about the how the term crossed over, and become the perfect word, to describe certain record, on the SCENE, and the issue that it was Pete Smith who made the comprehensive account of how to use the terminology, which, is definant,

Also with Ady comments, that for me, supports my view, I think Pete does deserve the recognition, for it's meaning in our scene,

It's a shame that I still can't stand the word 'SOULIE.

So yes Pete fame at last, fame at last.

AS ALWAYS DAVE'