This has probably been discussed at severe length before so apologies in advance but...

Piling thru the 9000 45s on ebay the % of repro lookalikes ( Jimmy Horne Just Cant DADE to name one ) Are these legit re-issues with money going to artist / songwriters etc? Or for example a 45 like Hamilton Movement on repro ... boots or legal re-issues.

Cheers

Rich

Exactly. That Seasons in The Sun was based on something by him.

Surely that was Terry Jacques

We are releasing a PRECISIONS EP to tie in with their apperance at Prestatyn and we have licenced the tracks from the owners of the DORE catalogue and got the approval of the group who have agreed to sign the records.

What I think is out of order is selling boots/reissues with looky likey labels.

I don't care what they're on, I just wish they weren't clogging up the pages of Ebay. I've only got a certain amount of time a day to search for stuff. Surely these things can't be selling in any quantities that demand the constant swamping of ebay pages day after day with the same records.It's getting to the point that whenever I see items for sale by someone in the UK I just skip past them.

Jordi

Publishing is 75 years from the death of the last writer so we can count that out.

"Can't help lovin' that man" J Kern 1885-1945/Oscar Hammerstein 1847-1919 - only 14 years to go then with this track, anybody know any others?

Precisions EP - I meant to say DREW not DORE.

Licensed from the owners of Drew.

It's a good EP.

Not all lookalikes are boots.

At Joe Boy we put out IN LOVE - TONY GALLA on Swan lookalkie and that was licenced from the owners of the Swan label. Since then Glenn Gunton has put out GONE WITH THE WIND IS MY LOVE - RITA AND THE TIARAS on DORE lookalike and that was licenced from the estate of Lew Bedell..

We are releasing a PRECISIONS EP to tie in with their apperance at Prestatyn and we have licenced the tracks from the owners of the DORE catalogue and got the approval of the group who have agreed to sign the records.

Which is IMO the right way to go about things. My original thread or question - with hindsight a little naive - was were these repros genuine re-issues or boots in turn self-answering who got the brass from the sales.

Like Jordi - I hate wading thru hundreds of BOOTLEG 45s passing themselves off - in some cases - as legit re-issues. Page after page .....

Perhaps people like Ady et al could shed some light onto whether its still a ( financially ) viable route for legal issuers to continue issuing 45s any more.

Regards

Rich

Which is IMO the right way to go about things. My original thread or question - with hindsight a little naive - was were these repros genuine re-issues or boots in turn self-answering who got the brass from the sales.

Like Jordi - I hate wading thru hundreds of BOOTLEG 45s passing themselves off - in some cases - as legit re-issues. Page after page .....

Perhaps people like Ady et al could shed some light onto whether its still a ( financially ) viable route for legal issuers to continue issuing 45s any more.

Regards

Rich

If legit releases disappear then the bootleggers will certainly fill the void. If you want to keep the legit guys in business buy there records, or are you one of the it's not a US original so I won't buy a first issue UK new release, you can't have it both ways, moan about a boot then won't purchase/support a legit release.

Talking of ploughing through pages of "boots" on ebay. There is now an Impressions - You Been Cheating/Tams - Be Young on an ABC look-a-like in the latest batch to appear?

Why would records this common need to be booted?

Talking of ploughing through pages of "boots" on ebay. There is now an Impressions - You Been Cheating/Tams - Be Young on an ABC look-a-like in the latest batch to appear?

Why would records this common need to be booted?

Simply because the bootleggers think there is a demand, and ABC (Universal) won't license the tracks cheaply enough to make it variable. That still doesn't make it right!

Which is IMO the right way to go about things. My original thread or question - with hindsight a little naive - was were these repros genuine re-issues or boots in turn self-answering who got the brass from the sales.

Like Jordi - I hate wading thru hundreds of BOOTLEG 45s passing themselves off - in some cases - as legit re-issues. Page after page .....

Perhaps people like Ady et al could shed some light onto whether its still a ( financially ) viable route for legal issuers to continue issuing 45s any more.

Regards

Rich

It's viable but only just and thats another reason why bootleggers skip the royalties. If we put out a series of good legal reissue 45s will you all promise to buy them?

It's viable but only just and thats another reason why bootleggers skip the royalties. If we put out a series of good legal reissue 45s will you all promise to buy them?

Would they then be acceptable to DJ with, or will we be burned at the stake for playing them out?

It's viable but only just and thats another reason why bootleggers skip the royalties. If we put out a series of good legal reissue 45s will you all promise to buy them?

You already do and we already do! I must have bought them all. Having said that, I've only ever bought 2 on Grapevine so I guess you have to be careful what you pick to issue.

Would they then be acceptable to DJ with, or will we be burned at the stake for playing them out?

Burned most likely

If legit releases disappear then the bootleggers will certainly fill the void. If you want to keep the legit guys in business buy there records, or are you one of the it's not a US original so I won't buy a first issue UK new release, you can't have it both ways, moan about a boot then won't purchase/support a legit release.

I do buy re-issues ( legit ) not loads but a legit re-issue IMO is far better than buying boot repro's. I simply cant afford to buy some originals ( plus the fact that a lot are as rare as hens teeth )so see legit re-issues as a worthy purchase. Giving something back I suppose and not take take take...

Unissued takes / cuts IMO are I would guess are a good example of making material available for the first time on a re-issue so if Ady were to issue some choice cuts from the vaults - of course we would buy em!..

Regards

Rich

It's viable but only just and thats another reason why bootleggers skip the royalties. If we put out a series of good legal reissue 45s will you all promise to buy them?

Even better, good unissued 45s Put me down for a subscription.

If legit releases disappear then the bootleggers will certainly fill the void. If you want to keep the legit guys in business buy there records, or are you one of the it's not a US original so I won't buy a first issue UK new release, you can't have it both ways, moan about a boot then won't purchase/support a legit release.

Trouble is its not always clear, if its a looky likey label.. I personaly always think it must be a boot.. (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone just typing) if its a legit uk first pressing.. why make it look as close to the original as possible.. some companys use there own lables when issuing uk issues we all know these company's so its clear...

Look at the thread regarding the shrine UK release on ebay.. surley if it was not made to look so like the original we wouldn't have them sort of problems.. if it is a legit uk issue surley it could have been green.. no mistaking it.. (only using this as an example because of recent threads on here not because i'm pointing fingers)..thing is people buy these because they can afford them and they like the sound of the record, not because of what label it is on...

look at all them boots from the days of old Rose Battise, Rubin etc. in my opinion they where made to con people.. and to make looky likeys is just carrying that on... or if you make a looky likey label why not still put the name of the company issuing it...

tried to make an example just to get my point over as I say i'm not having a go at the shrine releases but. just using them as an example..

Trouble is its not always clear, if its a looky likey label.. I personaly always think it must be a boot.. (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone just typing) if its a legit uk first pressing.. why make it look as close to the original as possible.. some companys use there own lables when issuing uk issues we all know these company's so its clear...

Look at the thread regarding the shrine UK release on ebay.. surley if it was not made to look so like the original we wouldn't have them sort of problems.. if it is a legit uk issue surley it could have been green.. no mistaking it.. (only using this as an example because of recent threads on here not because i'm pointing fingers)..thing is people buy these because they can afford them and they like the sound of the record, not because of what label it is on...

look at all them boots from the days of old Rose Battise, Rubin etc. in my opinion they where made to con people.. and to make looky likeys is just carrying that on... or if you make a looky likey label why not still put the name of the company issuing it...

tried to make an example just to get my point over as I say i'm not having a go at the shrine releases but. just using them as an example..

Point taken and agreed with!! Always liked the Expansion 45s - Patterson Twins / Sidney Joe etc. personally.

Rich

Point taken and agreed with!! Always liked the Expansion 45s - Patterson Twins / Sidney Joe etc. personally.

Rich

Sidney Joe - I don't do this.. when you bought it you knew what you was buying no problem.. you knew it was legit staright away..

Edited January 18, 200619 yr by mischief

Sidney Joe - I don't do this.. when you bought it you knew what you was buying no problem.. you knew it was legit staright away..

Exactly! A trusted name and a trusted source. Not been that many since though has there?

Rich

Yep you can DJ with them any time and if they've never been on vinyl before even better.

Was it the price of the Grapevines that put you off Pete or the tracks? I know there's a lot more modern on those.

Yep you can DJ with them any time and if they've never been on vinyl before even better.

Was it the price of the Grapevines that put you off Pete or the tracks? I know there's a lot more modern on those.

It was 100% definitely the tracks, I don't object to paying whatever they are charging but I just didn't know most of the stuff that got released, thats the honest answer. Also I wasn't too happy with them releasing the wrong take of The Springers!

Trouble is its not always clear, if its a looky likey label.. I personaly always think it must be a boot.. (I'm not pointing fingers at anyone just typing) if its a legit uk first pressing.. why make it look as close to the original as possible.. some companys use there own lables when issuing uk issues we all know these company's so its clear...

Look at the thread regarding the shrine UK release on ebay.. surley if it was not made to look so like the original we wouldn't have them sort of problems.. if it is a legit uk issue surley it could have been green.. no mistaking it.. (only using this as an example because of recent threads on here not because i'm pointing fingers)..thing is people buy these because they can afford them and they like the sound of the record, not because of what label it is on...

look at all them boots from the days of old Rose Battise, Rubin etc. in my opinion they where made to con people.. and to make looky likeys is just carrying that on... or if you make a looky likey label why not still put the name of the company issuing it...

tried to make an example just to get my point over as I say i'm not having a go at the shrine releases but. just using them as an example..

I was at a do in a pub recently & there was a guy with loads of record boxes so I thought oh goody.But every record was a brand new small hole lookalike . Who the hell buys them & why I can`t imagine, they need their bumps felt.

Anyway, they need a new catagory even if they are legal, can`t go with British as there is no antislip

serrations . Mind U some of the original Grapevine had very faint serations, some almost non existant. Anyone else notice this? Wonder why.

I was at a do in a pub recently & there was a guy with loads of record boxes so I thought oh goody.But every record was a brand new small hole lookalike . Who the hell buys them & why I can`t imagine, they need their bumps felt.

Anyway, they need a new catagory even if they are legal, can`t go with British as there is no antislip

serrations . Mind U some of the original Grapevine had very faint serations, some almost non existant. Anyone else notice this? Wonder why.

Because the serrations were for record players and juke boxes that stacked records, so they wouldn't slip on each other. They rarely worked, you had to know which pressings would stack with which, an art in itself.

Consider the following:

Waterstones sell a copy of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - A portion of the price paid goes to JK Rowling. The person who buys that book after reading it lists it on ebay and sells it - JK Rowling neither gets or expects any money from the sale. Just as it should be

If however I were to print my own copies of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and sell them JK Rowling would have every right to be hacked off and would probably sue.

Everyone can see that printing my own copies of HP (or, with all due respect to Alan's Daughter, counterfieting Channel purses) would be illegal and immoral.

Why should records be any different?

Ged Parker....what an outstanding judgement, next time we meet up, a beer is on me........

Brett

Edited January 18, 200619 yr by Brett

I collect the Grapevine/ 2000, Expansion and Kent series of 45's, but i believe the way forward is the issuing of the unreleased tracks that those companies have got available (plenty on CD, but as the majority on here are vinyl fans, then surely thats the way forward). I have said this before but the legitamate releases of U.S. 45's (albeit 4 decades later) have to be judged as UK issues, in my eyes no different to the copies( of equivalent sounds) that were released around the same time as the original version.

I collect the Grapevine/ 2000, Expansion and Kent series of 45's, but i believe the way forward is the issuing of the unreleased tracks that those companies have got available (plenty on CD, but as the majority on here are vinyl fans, then surely thats the way forward). I have said this before but the legitamate releases of U.S. 45's (albeit 4 decades later) have to be judged as UK issues, in my eyes no different to the copies( of equivalent sounds) that were released around the same time as the original version.

fair comment brett but on limited budget like all of us i always prefer the ones with the big holes, so to speak

have never been able to bring myself to buy new presses, even if legit - shame on me really cos the money goes to the right place

mind you, i did buy the magic touch when adey brought that out

it's (legit) cds or old vinyl for me (but never boots )

Because the serrations were for record players and juke boxes that stacked records, so they wouldn't slip on each other. They rarely worked, you had to know which pressings would stack with which, an art in itself.

So why did Grapevine put faint serations on, were they just for show?

Anyway the vinyl`s s too thin & they don`t have that smell to be allowed in the British box

Good point someone made about first issue of unissued tracks being good & collectable tho.

fair comment brett but on limited budget like all of us i always prefer the ones with the big holes, so to speak

have never been able to bring myself to buy new presses, even if legit - shame on me really cos the money goes to the right place

mind you, i did buy the magic touch when adey brought that out

it's (legit) cds or old vinyl for me (but never boots )

You know me Dan, i have that longing for the "Big Hole", but the issues i mentioned are so good value for money, makes a change to pay a tenner for a 45' than a few hundred quid.... Saying that i still bought the Carl Hall (Escrow) and the Bobby Reed (Expansion) when i also have the originals...(Columbia/Bell)

So why did Grapevine put faint serations on, were they just for show?

Anyway the vinyl`s s too thin & they don`t have that smell to be allowed in the British box

Just to clear up a few points...

My company (South Union) is responsible for processing / printing / pressing all Grapevine CDs and 45s and I can assure you their 45s are certainly NOT on thin vinyl. Most are pressed at the SAME plant (on the same press in most cases) as 45s on Kent and Goldmine, etc. They are the same 'weight' and use the same mixture of materials. As they have the same 'chemical composition', the feel and smell should be the same too ...not that I feel and smell them all.

Let me know if there's a particular aroma you like and I'll see if we can have copies specially scented for you.

And do we put faint serations on just for show? Of course not. Very few Grapevine 45s have any sign of grip serations (not that it matters). Pressing plants still old machinery and 45s from some presses can have very faint serations. As there are only a few UK plants who still manufacture 7" singles, this applies to all 45s, not just Grapevine.

The ONLY way Grapevine 45s may differ from others (apart from Kent) is that they are well mastered ...and they are legitimate so they provide financial benefit to the copyright owners.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Just to clear up a few points...

My company (South Union) is responsible for processing / printing / pressing all Grapevine CDs and 45s and I can assure you their 45s are certainly NOT on thin vinyl. Most are pressed at the SAME plant (on the same press in most cases) as 45s on Kent and Goldmine, etc. They are the same 'weight' and use the same mixture of materials. As they have the same 'chemical composition', the feel and smell should be the same too ...not that I feel and smell them all.

Let me know if there's a particular aroma you like and I'll see if we can have copies specially scented for you.

And do we put faint serations on just for show? Of course not. Very few Grapevine 45s have any sign of grip serations (not that it matters). Pressing plants still old machinery and 45s from some presses can have very faint serations. As there are only a few UK plants who still manufacture 7" singles, this applies to all 45s, not just Grapevine.

The ONLY way Grapevine 45s may differ from others (apart from Kent) is that they are well mastered ...and they are legitimate so they provide financial benefit to the copyright owners.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

I like musty smell if you can arrange it Paul Was on about serrations on the old original batch of Grapevines, not the current ones you are involved with. I didn`t mean to tie Grapevine to the boot labels & apologise if it came across that way. Where can I see a list of your releases?

Tom.

Bootlegs are illegal... simple fact, they are unauthorised and the purveyors of such products are breaking the law. Can't understand all this double talk and misting of the reality of this subject matter.

Believe you me, if you strike an officer of the law, then they will jump on you like a ton of bricks, same thing occurs if you try and cheat any Corporation out of money.........only they will burn you more....

Brett... when you dj, before you place your vinyl on the decks, do you ensure the venue is registered with the PRS so that the artist may make his 1,000,000,000th of a percent off your play and dont anyone assume its a given that they would be registered just because an establishment has a licence to sell alcohol..its not

is defrauding the artist by this way just as bad as bootlegging...id be interested to know as i spent a few years in as a pub manager

geeoooordie

Brett... when you dj, before you place your vinyl on the decks, do you ensure the venue is registered with the PRS so that the artist may make his 1,000,000,000th of a percent off your play and dont anyone assume its a given that they would be registered just because an establishment has a licence to sell alcohol..its not

is defrauding the artist by this way just as bad as bootlegging...id be interested to know as i spent a few years in as a pub manager

geeoooordie

Ian i know your a 8th dan licensed Karate killer.....but your backs gone, so sit down and behave, your argument is both ridculous and hopelessly flawed.....i'll tell you why next time you buy me a drink......

oops posted twice

Edited January 20, 200619 yr by Brett

i knew you would come back with a good wag but how is it flawed??? in a quick nutshell

PS only brown belt smashed my elbow and missed out on the black......

Geeoooordie

You've taken it to the 8th degree my good man, good God next you'll be bringing a lawsuit down on me for just playing an ORIGINAL 45' at home, come on Karate Kid..the idea is ludicrous, and in no way can be associated with bootleg copies of genuine releases,that rips the artist/company etc off plus the punter who is buying a faux product.

Brett

i agree brett, i was teasing...it was just a jibe at older posts ive seen on SS where people moan about the artists not getting their dues and in a miniscule way and technically speaking the PRS thing is just that... but.....Im in the same camp as you real vinyl only dont give the bootleggers the option or satisfaction of sales

Now on the lawsuit thing do you play your records at home or do you have friends round???? as that could constitute a public performance if there are more than three of you , if you see a man in a long mack with a big camera and a recording instrument of sorts, otside your living room window dont worry its only me gathering evidence

Geeoooordie

Ian i see your replying, but for me there is a moral implication surrounding boots' (hell when i was young i bought one or two, because i didn't know at the time anything about rare / northern soul collecting..it took time) Perhaps i'm looking through rose coloured glasses but i believe there is an ethic and a path any like minded collector follows (thats what i learned anyway). That path and philosophy is to just attain original licensed records, for example i'd kill for Chuck Cockerham on Mala (haven't even got it in any other format) but if it was booted then i'd still not accept that.

Edited January 20, 200619 yr by Brett

i agree brett, i was teasing...it was just a jibe at older posts ive seen on SS where people moan about the artists not getting their dues and in a miniscule way and technically speaking the PRS thing is just that... but.....Im in the same camp as you real vinyl only dont give the bootleggers the option or satisfaction of sales

Now on the lawsuit thing do you play your records at home or do you have friends round???? as that could constitute a public performance if there are more than three of you , if you see a man in a long mack with a big camera and a recording instrument of sorts, otside your living room window dont worry its only me gathering evidence

Geeoooordie

Jesus..theres two of us in Yorkshire doing that then....oopps.....

my sentiments exactly....when i was 12 or so i bought boots to play at the school disco...i didnt even know they were boots at the time and only had my paper round money as buying power....bought them from a bonafide record store...but like you say as we get educated about the scene and older and wiser (well my wife thinks im a fool for spending large sums on music) not only is it the correct and moral thing but there is also a great deal of satisfaction in gaining an original track.

Im in the same camp...can i surrender ...... white flag and all that

anyway you said we'd discuss it next time ..I BUY YOU A Pint...ask around no ones seen my wallet for 25 years

Geeooooordie

Geeoooordie

I like musty smell if you can arrange it Paul Was on about serrations on the old original batch of Grapevines, not the current ones you are involved with. I didn`t mean to tie Grapevine to the boot labels & apologise if it came across that way. Where can I see a list of your releases?

Tom.

No problem Tom,

The '70s Grapevine singles were pressed by RCA (at their plant in Washington, Tyne & Wear, up here in the great north east) and they had heavy serations.

If you smell the vinyl you might just detect a faint scent of coal dust. That's because some of the guys at the pressing plant were ex-miners.

I'll try to post a list of Grapevine releases.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney