thought this might be of interest, Jack white has done more for the music industry than a host of wannabe Ganstas

 

 

 

Wow great info / the place looks like a formula 1 garage- while viewing the video, I could help thinking how the hell it was done back in the day - when Motown / EMI records were just knocking them out

Not knocking this, I love entrepenuerism!

Probably will result in a massive increase in reissues of Soul, Blues etc etc records though, Jack White being a massive fan himself.

Very impressive set up.  Let's hope it's the first of many new pressing plants.

4 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Not knocking this, I love entrepenuerism!

Probably will result in a massive increase in reissues of Soul, Blues etc etc records though, Jack White being a massive fan himself.

Not sure why this will result in an increase in reissues?  There is a waiting list of months for any pressing in the US, I was told approx 8 months.  The majors will get preference over the little guys.

19 minutes ago, chalky said:

Not sure why this will result in an increase in reissues?  There is a waiting list of months for any pressing in the US, I was told approx 8 months.  The majors will get preference over the little guys.

True, there is an interest in vinyl releases by current artists. I based my opinion on knowledge of JW and his interest in old artists like the Delta Bluesmen coupled with a basic knowledge of economics, it won't take long to clear that backlog and with the obvious level of investment they are going to want to press as much as possible going forward.

It doesn't bother me anyway, I'd like some of the old Delta blues and soul 45s on reissues, I don't have a thing about reissues, they don't seem to affect the prices of original rarities, aren't the same thing as illegal bootlegs and allow access to the canon for those less well-off. The only people bothered by reissues are DJs because of monopolies on gigs and collectors worried about slumps in prices, of which I'm neither. I don't make my money from records I make it from playing instruments so I don't have to worry about OVs to get paid gigs. Besides which I have a cracking hotbox crammed full of big-ticket original vinyls.

JW has his eye on the ball and with his own publishing and now a pressing plant he IMO will be getting into reissuing old stuff, but it is only speculation for the moment.

5 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Not knocking this, I love entrepenuerism!

Probably will result in a massive increase in reissues of Soul, Blues etc etc records though, Jack White being a massive fan himself.

 

46 minutes ago, chalky said:

Not sure why this will result in an increase in reissues?  There is a waiting list of months for any pressing in the US, I was told approx 8 months.  The majors will get preference over the little guys.

  I would not of thought so why press out old stuff when theirs a hungry top 100 pop tune that have the potential of making millions a week  theirs plenty of reissues & bootlegs  very much doubt they would bother with blues or soul in the USA . Their is no real market for it they will have investors  .Teres to pressing plants in haarlem Holland  & they have not bothered pressing soul records or blues  to busy selling rave music for current mixing DJs in clubs in Europe.

2 minutes ago, redditchcrew said:

 

  I would not of thought so why press out old stuff when theirs a hungry top 100 pop tune that have the potential of making millions a week  theirs plenty of reissues & bootlegs  very much doubt they would bother with blues or soul in the USA . Their is no real market for it they will have investors  .Teres to pressing plants in haarlem Holland  & they have not bothered pressing soul records or blues  to busy selling rave music for current mixing DJs in clubs in Europe.

Don't forget that JW made his money by rehashing old Delta blues tunes, I personally don't rate him at all, but the fact is he made a lot of money worldwide doing just that, his main marketing strategy was that he recorded using ancient stellavox and gear like that, and using old valve amps and plastic Airlines and Sears Silvertones.

8 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Don't forget that JW made his money by rehashing old Delta blues tunes, I personally don't rate him at all, but the fact is he made a lot of money worldwide doing just that, his main marketing strategy was that he recorded using ancient stellavox and gear like that, and using old valve amps and plastic Airlines and Sears Silvertones.

    he stated the other day that he was interested in helping new groups getting established  as the larger company's are not bothering  & that he gone into business partnership with a small label record company third man records & has stated that the vinyl in twelve inch format  was for new music at  presentation party held at the plant , in detroit

1 minute ago, redditchcrew said:

    he stated the other day that he was interested in helping new groups getting established  as the larger company's are not bothering  & that he gone into business partnership with a small label record company third man records & has stated that the vinyl in twelve inch format  was for new music at  presentation party held at the plant , in detroit

Oh yeah I don't doubt that statement for a second, good on him. He loves old formats like vinyl and will be doing all he can to bring vinyl back hence him opening a pressing plant. Hence me believing that pretty soon he'll be reissuing licensed vinyl of Blind Lemon Jefferson, Mississippi Fred MacDowell, Kokomo Arnold etc etc, along with other retro regional/cultural stuff like Bluegrass and Soul. It's only my opinion of what he/they will do, nothing more, as stated I think it'll be a good thing too, I'd like to be able to increase my collection of records with some nice reissues of forgotten music in physical format...

It don't 'alf impress me younger Hipster buddies!

2 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Oh yeah I don't doubt that statement for a second, good on him. He loves old formats like vinyl and will be doing all he can to bring vinyl back hence him opening a pressing plant. Hence me believing that pretty soon he'll be reissuing licensed vinyl of Blind Lemon Jefferson, Mississippi Fred MacDowell, Kokomo Arnold etc etc, along with other retro regional/cultural stuff like Bluegrass and Soul. It's only my opinion of what he/they will do, nothing more, as stated I think it'll be a good thing too, I'd like to be able to increase my collection of records with some nice reissues of forgotten music in physical format...

It don't 'alf impress me younger Hipster buddies!

  why don't you then get them on original then you could really peacock round to your young hipster mates .I know that all the youngsters that come regular to Nuneaton that I chat to are all into original vinyl  . dress in sixties clothing  (MOD )  ,only meet youngsters at all-nighters as I not a a regular  in the pub drinking scene .

1 minute ago, redditchcrew said:

  why don't you then get them on original then you could really peacock round to your young hipster mates .I know that all the youngsters that come regular to Nuneaton that I chat to are all into original vinyl  . dress in sixties clothing  (MOD )  ,only meet youngsters at all-nighters as I not a a regular  in the pub drinking scene .

I have.. Four posts ago I stated 'I have a cracking hotbox crammed full of big-ticket originals'. However I didn't pay much for any of them, I acquired them in the 80s when my mates who packed it in couldn't sell 'em for 50p a pop, plus a lot of women gifted me records in them halcyon days!  I don't buy records at todays' prices.

My Hipster mates dress like 1920s Lumberjacks and like stuff like Jump Bluegrass and Delta Blues, I mostly impress them using my 1929 National Delphonic though, they like stuff like Kitty, Daisy and Lewis but like anyone cool who gets introduced to Soul they usually like it a lot! When we get together I educate them about people like Fred MacDowell, I probably sound like a bit of a ponce on here but I do play in a professional RnR/Memphis soul band that's been active since '62 and was mentored in Delta slide blues by Snakey Jake Johnson so...

I'm probably not as much of a pratt as I might come across on here! Or maybe moreso  I think people who know me think I'm ok

 I don't think you come over as you have stated a Pratt as for todays prices it depends who you buy off if your sensible about it you should be able to get original

 vinyl at decent affordable prices as I try to .I just never have known anyone impressed with knock of goods or reproductions if you own a real Rolex I am impressed but if its from Hong kong naaaaa  .Same as a refabricated or copied scooter or motorbike  or guitar it just not the same as the real thing  what would rather a 1966 GP 200 or a a indian made GP 200 or a 200 scalmadi. not that there is a problem with either scooters they are just not the real thing .As for gifted records by females ill have to take you word on that one as I have been married for 32 years I would not put in print that even if it was so ,far to frighten of the mrs . reissues have there place but not the kind of thing you would openly admit to preferring im sure if you wore levis you would not be impressed with the same jeans with word lives on or a buy  knockoff handbag for the mrs ,

7 minutes ago, redditchcrew said:

 I don't think you come over as you have stated a Pratt as for todays prices it depends who you buy off if your sensible about it you should be able to get original

 vinyl at decent affordable prices as I try to .I just never have known anyone impressed with knock of goods or reproductions if you own a real Rolex I am impressed but if its from Hong kong naaaaa  .Same as a refabricated or copied scooter or motorbike  or guitar it just not the same as the real thing  what would rather a 1966 GP 200 or a a indian made GP 200 or a 200 scalmadi. not that there is a problem with either scooters they are just not the real thing .As for gifted records by females ill have to take you word on that one as I have been married for 32 years I would not put in print that even if it was so ,far to frighten of the mrs . reissues have there place but not the kind of thing you would openly admit to preferring im sure if you wore levis you would not be impressed with the same jeans with word lives on or a buy  knockoff handbag for the mrs ,

We've been together 28 years but I did have a life before her as she did before me. my lass was going to allnighters when I was still at junior school! I know what you mean about reissued stuff, for example I wouldn't be seen in public with a reissue musical instrument all mine are full-on vintage original made in USA, I have many Land Rovers but I only drive the original first issue Series 1 models myself as my own cars. Clothes I can't be arsed with labels but shoes I only ever wear Jeffery West when I'm onstage or go out.

With records though it doesn't work like that...

It is the fact that you KNOW OF the artist and the work that holds the kudos for people outside of the collecting/OVO scene. A point which a lot of people don't get.

If required, say in the company of some soul afficianado, I could pull out a few big records on original label yes but with the folks who don't know the original label and all it's details they view it as cool because you know of the work, they wouldn't know the details of the original anyway, to be honest with you I didn't know I even had any decent records in terms of value until I came here, I only valued the work contained on the disc and still know very little, I'm constantly shocked on here when I discover that my old box of junk records are worth good money, I'm not selling 'em anyway, if I play a reissue to my friends at home it'll be a record I value very much as a piece of art, I will say that it's a reissue and the original is worth x amount and I don't have it. I fully get why collectors want original art pieces on the first issued format and I know a few whose records are off the scale and I own a few that they're always asking me to sell, I do get it but for me I will own a reissue record if I love the art contained on it in the same way that I love my copy of Vemeers 'Girl with a pearl earring' (I had a mate god rest him who could knock up a very accurate Mona Lisa or Girl with a pearl earring in a day, although granted they weren't made to fool people, just a nice piece to own, but yes in your terms a definite 'knock-off') Hope this all makes sense, in a real-life scenario if it came to an issue over playing a knock-off I'd just pull out my most prized record on Washpan and it would be debate over, I know as I've done it many times with my collector mates after a few drinks, then I'd follow that with my reissue of Blind Willie Johnson 'Dark was the night' which a lot of people just don't get on any level. Hope this all makes sense and doesn't seem argumentative or nothing!

And knowing a lot of what Jack White likes I think he'll be reissuing mostly the kind of stuff that only exists on wax-tube or on Alan Lomax's old 1/2 inch tapes!

6 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

We've been together 28 years but I did have a life before her as she did before me. my lass was going to allnighters when I was still at junior school! I know what you mean about reissued stuff, for example I wouldn't be seen in public with a reissue musical instrument all mine are full-on vintage original made in USA, I have many Land Rovers but I only drive the original first issue Series 1 models myself as my own cars. Clothes I can't be arsed with labels but shoes I only ever wear Jeffery West when I'm onstage or go out.

With records though it doesn't work like that...

It is the fact that you KNOW OF the artist and the work that holds the kudos for people outside of the collecting/OVO scene. A point which a lot of people don't get.

If required, say in the company of some soul afficianado, I could pull out a few big records on original label yes but with the folks who don't know the original label and all it's details they view it as cool because you know of the work, they wouldn't know the details of the original anyway, to be honest with you I didn't know I even had any decent records in terms of value until I came here, I only valued the work contained on the disc and still know very little, I'm constantly shocked on here when I discover that my old box of junk records are worth good money, I'm not selling 'em anyway, if I play a reissue to my friends at home it'll be a record I value very much as a piece of art, I will say that it's a reissue and the original is worth x amount and I don't have it. I fully get why collectors want original art pieces on the first issued format and I know a few whose records are off the scale and I own a few that they're always asking me to sell, I do get it but for me I will own a reissue record if I love the art contained on it in the same way that I love my copy of Vemeers 'Girl with a pearl earring' (I had a mate god rest him who could knock up a very accurate Mona Lisa or Girl with a pearl earring in a day, although granted they weren't made to fool people, just a nice piece to own, but yes in your terms a definite 'knock-off') Hope this all makes sense, in a real-life scenario if it came to an issue over playing a knock-off I'd just pull out my most prized record on Washpan and it would be debate over, I know as I've done it many times with my collector mates after a few drinks, then I'd follow that with my reissue of Blind Willie Johnson 'Dark was the night' which a lot of people just don't get on any level. Hope this all makes sense and doesn't seem argumentative or nothing!

And knowing a lot of what Jack White likes I think he'll be reissuing mostly the kind of stuff that only exists on wax-tube or on Alan Lomax's old 1/2 inch tapes!

not really I regard reissues or knockoff of any kind takes away any art they possess .im happy for you that you regard you original vinyl highly .I personal buy originals of everything if its possible things I cannot afford I just do with out I would get no real enjoyment out of it ,I buy for the dance floor at Nuneaton not always for my own pleasure  some because I know they will fill the floor & people will have a great night  .I do this to keep the scene going in the area I was from.im fussy like that & I don't really have very many really expensive records to speak of its not about the price as im a hospital porter so as you would no the pay is awful but the job has its rewards .so I cannot compete with the big djs  ,but I've been at Nuneaton since its concept with my old buddy mark freeman so I must be getting something right as DJs have come & gone there in the last 11years ,I have  not played a non original  since I been their I once played a genuine acetate from a studio in the Nether lands & got slated for in print on here by a fellow visiting DJ  so have never bothered again   if its not real then I don't get it simple as that ,

To bring the thread right back to topic after wandering off a bit with a conversation, I just watched the video and a couple of points I want to raise. Firstly it's great that JW and Third Man are doing this in Detroit, it's great not only in terms of records coming out of Detroit again but that Detroit badly needs investment and opportunities, currently employing fifty people, let's hope it builds and builds, who knows maybe Detroit will re-emerge as a centre of the vinyl disc business in the future, that will be great news for the city. Also I noticed that the spokesman did say categorically that the pressing plant is not exclusively for big business but will be available to press small numbers for small bands and small operations.

If they are reading this thread, and they will because they're all very media-savvy and will be monitoring the net for any activity regarding their new venture, good on yer lads, hope it's a big success, love whatya doin'!

<snip>

Edited March 2, 20178 yr by BabyBoyAndMyLass
post removed

7 hours ago, redditchcrew said:

not really I regard reissues or knockoff of any kind takes away any art they possess .im happy for you that you regard you original vinyl highly .I personal buy originals of everything if its possible things I cannot afford I just do with out I would get no real enjoyment out of it ,I buy for the dance floor at Nuneaton not always for my own pleasure  some because I know they will fill the floor & people will have a great night  .I do this to keep the scene going in the area I was from.im fussy like that & I don't really have very many really expensive records to speak of its not about the price as im a hospital porter so as you would no the pay is awful but the job has its rewards .so I cannot compete with the big djs  ,but I've been at Nuneaton since its concept with my old buddy mark freeman so I must be getting something right as DJs have come & gone there in the last 11years ,I have  not played a non original  since I been their I once played a genuine acetate from a studio in the Nether lands & got slated for in print on here by a fellow visiting DJ  so have never bothered again   if its not real then I don't get it simple as that ,

But the 45 is simply a way of getting the art out in the public domain for the artist, the same can be said for downloads, cds and Lps.  If the reissue or any other medium is legal it should not detract from the art and I doubt the artist(s) care very little about what we think as long as they get paid their dues? I fully understand the concept of OVO as far as this scene goes.  And an acetate is about as original as it gets so the felow Dj was simply being a clueless tw*t.  Would he have had a go at Butch etc?  Anyway no wish to turn this into another OVO bootleg debate.

The pressing plant can only be a positive, creative musicians are still out there.  There is a glut of new soul music as well as many other genres and the rise in demand for vinyl is great for those that appreciate music.

10 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

It don't 'alf impress me younger Hipster buddies!

Hipster Buddy from JML.  Available at Morrisons, Tesco, Asda. and Wilko.  Only £9.99.

1 hour ago, chalky said:

But the 45 is simply a way of getting the art out in the public domain for the artist, the same can be said for downloads, cds and Lps.  If the reissue or any other medium is legal it should not detract from the art and I doubt the artist(s) care very little about what we think as long as they get paid their dues? I fully understand the concept of OVO as far as this scene goes.  And an acetate is about as original as it gets so the felow Dj was simply being a clueless tw*t.  Would he have had a go at Butch etc?  Anyway no wish to turn this into another OVO bootleg debate.

The pressing plant can only be a positive, creative musicians are still out there.  There is a glut of new soul music as well as many other genres and the rise in demand for vinyl is great for those that appreciate music.

  he wasn't clueless far from it he just didn't like it because he had a stock copy & also im popular & well known on the scene but I have not forgotten about & felt it was ungentlemanly to put a new dj down & a new venue but that the scene for you .   

37 minutes ago, redditchcrew said:

  he wasn't clueless far from it he just didn't like it because he had a stock copy & also im popular & well known on the scene but I have not forgotten about & felt it was ungentlemanly to put a new dj down & a new venue but that the scene for you .   

Jealous of your acetate then

15 hours ago, redditchcrew said:

I regard reissues or knockoff of any kind takes away any art they possess   

 

 

if its not real then I don't get it simple as that

Redditchcrew... Ian...

 

Last night I responded to your post containing the above statement. I subsequently removed the post which is something I would never do normally. I felt you must have worded your reply hastily, perhaps a little clumsily. Let me explain. In guitars a 'reissue' is a modern manufactured guitar bearing the trademark of a famous old vintage instrument, the instrument will have been manufactured to the same high standard using the same spec hardware where possible, in the case of say Fender, Rickenbacker or Gibson, the reissue will have been made at the same plant using the same machines and craftsmen, it is most definately not the same as a fake Roleks made in China using cheap counterfeit parts.

 

A 'reissue' in the sense we're discussing here, a record, isn't quite the same thing, it is the same piece of music as the original pressing, it is more accurately perhaps described as a 'repressing'. So in your statement, you are effectively saying that a wonderful piece of music, say Bobby Garrett 'I can't get away' (I always use this example, but any will do) has lost it's value as a great song or piece of music, simply because it is a repress, say on the Kent label?

 

Can you see how I'm sure you must've worded your statement incorrectly? You can't mean that literally? To say that it has lost it's value as an art form because it's on a different disc/paper label/CD/Mp3 whatever format is just plain unfathomable. An artists' print, say of the Mona Lisa, is still a picture of the Mona Lisa, a repress of a soul record still contains the sound taken from the original master tape. To use your analogy it ceases to be of any value whatsoever when it is pressed for the first time let alone a second time? That is just ridiculous and I'm sure it isn't what you really meant to say, if it was then I'm completely speechless.

 

I have two Bobby Garretts, one on purple label Mirwood, which I believe to be an original first press, I bought a Kent label reissue in order to keep my Mirwood in good condition. I only play these days the Kent disc, the music is the same piece, to me, a wonderful, beautiful piece of music that nothing could devalue as a piece of art whether I was listening to it on a homemade 1/4 inch cassette, mp3, CD or any format, for me it's the music that I value, if I didn't like the piece of music I wouldn't be interested whether it was a first press worth thousands or a repress worth ten pence.

 

Whilst I respect owning the original disc, the only reason I have any interest whatsoever is because I like the song, that song isn't going to be diminished for me because of the format it is contained on. Also it's a poor show when an artist isn't entitled to a repress to meet demand (and make some wages) because his/her work is rendered as nothing because it isn't a first pressing. I'm sure that many on the OVO scene would agree with this, you either like the song or you don't irrespective of the order in which the actual copy in the hand was manufactured.

 

A counterfeit 'bootleg' is not what I'm discussing here. Although even if on a boot, the art will still stand up for itself, it isn't like an art forgery by a completely different hand.

 

This is a music lovers' perspective on it, also being a performing artist myself I am looking from the artists' perspective also, while I can get the idea of DJs spinning only OVO at events, when it comes to individual sales for home use I'm with the artist, more sales the better, a repress due to demand by people who want to listen to the piece of music is actually very good news. I very much like records on the Kent label for this reason.

 

Anyway best wishes Ian, I'm not one for falling out over differences of opinion but I very strongly disagree with your viewpoint here, as I say I'm sure you have worded the statement wrongly, surely a soulie wouldn't deny the value of a great piece of soul music on the grounds of it's disc/label?

 

 

Off-topic but... James Jamerson soul source member?, 11 years a member, post count 3 reputation precisely zero... delivering negative reputations from beyond the grave or... Alive and well living in Stoke? Cool man.

An acetate is an acetate. That's why it's called an acetate. It isn't vinyl record. It's function in the manufacturing process is quite specific. It's only really of significance if its either got some attachment to an individual or group or label which is recognizable/verifiable) Or an unreleased track or a different version. 

An acetate of a record that has been released is not really greater than the  original - since you wouldn't normally play it. It ISN'T a record. It's an acetate. The clue is in the name. If someone has an original they might rightly be p**** off because there's no telling where that acetate came from. 

You either get it or you don't but the bottom line is an acetate is NOT original vinyl. And since you can only play them a small number of times before they pack up there's only two options: keep getting further acetates made (which are modern copies) or (more practically) do a vinyl copy. If the vinyl  copy is of a track that was not released it's a bootleg. If it's of an official release its a counterfeit (or pressing).  

6 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Redditchcrew... Ian...

 

Last night I responded to your post containing the above statement. I subsequently removed the post which is something I would never do normally. I felt you must have worded your reply hastily, perhaps a little clumsily. Let me explain. In guitars a 'reissue' is a modern manufactured guitar bearing the trademark of a famous old vintage instrument, the instrument will have been manufactured to the same high standard using the same spec hardware where possible, in the case of say Fender, Rickenbacker or Gibson, the reissue will have been made at the same plant using the same machines and craftsmen, it is most definately not the same as a fake Roleks made in China using cheap counterfeit parts.

 

A 'reissue' in the sense we're discussing here, a record, isn't quite the same thing, it is the same piece of music as the original pressing, it is more accurately perhaps described as a 'repressing'. So in your statement, you are effectively saying that a wonderful piece of music, say Bobby Garrett 'I can't get away' (I always use this example, but any will do) has lost it's value as a great song or piece of music, simply because it is a repress, say on the Kent label?

 

Can you see how I'm sure you must've worded your statement incorrectly? You can't mean that literally? To say that it has lost it's value as an art form because it's on a different disc/paper label/CD/Mp3 whatever format is just plain unfathomable. An artists' print, say of the Mona Lisa, is still a picture of the Mona Lisa, a repress of a soul record still contains the sound taken from the original master tape. To use your analogy it ceases to be of any value whatsoever when it is pressed for the first time let alone a second time? That is just ridiculous and I'm sure it isn't what you really meant to say, if it was then I'm completely speechless.

 

I have two Bobby Garretts, one on purple label Mirwood, which I believe to be an original first press, I bought a Kent label reissue in order to keep my Mirwood in good condition. I only play these days the Kent disc, the music is the same piece, to me, a wonderful, beautiful piece of music that nothing could devalue as a piece of art whether I was listening to it on a homemade 1/4 inch cassette, mp3, CD or any format, for me it's the music that I value, if I didn't like the piece of music I wouldn't be interested whether it was a first press worth thousands or a repress worth ten pence.

 

Whilst I respect owning the original disc, the only reason I have any interest whatsoever is because I like the song, that song isn't going to be diminished for me because of the format it is contained on. Also it's a poor show when an artist isn't entitled to a repress to meet demand (and make some wages) because his/her work is rendered as nothing because it isn't a first pressing. I'm sure that many on the OVO scene would agree with this, you either like the song or you don't irrespective of the order in which the actual copy in the hand was manufactured.

 

A counterfeit 'bootleg' is not what I'm discussing here. Although even if on a boot, the art will still stand up for itself, it isn't like an art forgery by a completely different hand.

 

This is a music lovers' perspective on it, also being a performing artist myself I am looking from the artists' perspective also, while I can get the idea of DJs spinning only OVO at events, when it comes to individual sales for home use I'm with the artist, more sales the better, a repress due to demand by people who want to listen to the piece of music is actually very good news. I very much like records on the Kent label for this reason.

 

Anyway best wishes Ian, I'm not one for falling out over differences of opinion but I very strongly disagree with your viewpoint here, as I say I'm sure you have worded the statement wrongly, surely a soulie wouldn't deny the value of a great piece of soul music on the grounds of it's disc/label?

 

 

   yes I could have been more thoughtful in what I stated. This issue  I feel must be brought up DJs constantly play with the intention of fooling the scene that they possess top dog records I don't mean occasionally but consistently I film most DJs at nunny & have had to delete a lot of film so not to embarrass them but recently my toleration has waned .its not my intention to fall out or offend any one on the scene over this  .One of the reasons ive come back onto soul source is to make it known that this practice at All-nighters will stop before we end up with people influencing & watering down  of the scene .I know its harsh & I understand peoples frustration the they cant afford top tunes I just the same we need more DJs on the scene to play underplayed tunes that have filled dance floors in the past & are probably fearful of an empty floor  they should not be like that I would rather hear a 20 squid tune that some tired over played  top tune  . I try not to fall out with anyone but I am quite outspoken & very thick skinned & have been on the scene nearly 40 years so I feel ive been part of it a long time so I have the right to say my pennyworth. I willtry to be more careful on what I say on here .

11 minutes ago, maslar said:

An acetate is an acetate. That's why it's called an acetate. It isn't vinyl record. It's function in the manufacturing process is quite specific. It's only really of significance if its either got some attachment to an individual or group or label which is recognizable/verifiable) Or an unreleased track or a different version. 

An acetate of a record that has been released is not really greater than the  original - since you wouldn't normally play it. It ISN'T a record. It's an acetate. The clue is in the name. If someone has an original they might rightly be p**** off because there's no telling where that acetate came from. 

You either get it or you don't but the bottom line is an acetate is NOT original vinyl. And since you can only play them a small number of times before they pack up there's only two options: keep getting further acetates made (which are modern copies) or (more practically) do a vinyl copy. If the vinyl  copy is of a track that was not released it's a bootleg. If it's of an official release its a counterfeit (or pressing).  

They are not really actetate, it is nitrocellulose lacquer.  And as for the shelf life bit of a falacy as I know of many that are fine after many many plays. 

22 minutes ago, maslar said:

An acetate is an acetate. That's why it's called an acetate. It isn't vinyl record. It's function in the manufacturing process is quite specific. It's only really of significance if its either got some attachment to an individual or group or label which is recognizable/verifiable) Or an unreleased track or a different version. 

An acetate of a record that has been released is not really greater than the  original - since you wouldn't normally play it. It ISN'T a record. It's an acetate. The clue is in the name. If someone has an original they might rightly be p**** off because there's no telling where that acetate came from. 

You either get it or you don't but the bottom line is an acetate is NOT original vinyl. And since you can only play them a small number of times before they pack up there's only two options: keep getting further acetates made (which are modern copies) or (more practically) do a vinyl copy. If the vinyl  copy is of a track that was not released it's a bootleg. If it's of an official release its a counterfeit (or pressing).  

provenance comes with owning a one off acetate, of an unreleased tune, making a copy, another acetate, allows a dj to play the record out to the public, without damaging the only existing original recording. imho this is perfectly legitimate and totally practical, whilst still maintaining our mythical, underground credibility ethic. - so there! LOL.

5 minutes ago, chalky said:

They are not really actetate, it is nitrocellulose lacquer.  And as for the shelf life bit of a falacy as I know of many that are fine after many many plays. 

Not really a fallacy since they  have an inevitable  marked deterioration due to the very nature of the material.  That may be from pristine (about 10 to 20 plays?) to eventually sounding like a rough vinyl/styrene record but it's still there and eventually it will be unlistenable.  Why would anyone wish that to happen to something they view as rare and/or collectable?  They are in effect deliberately destroying it since its being used for something it was never intended to do. The sensible - and only - thing to do would be to do a vinyl copy. But then again that wouldn't b an acetate

23 minutes ago, redditchcrew said:

   yes I could have been more thoughtful in what I stated. This issue  I feel must be brought up DJs constantly play with the intention of fooling the scene that they possess top dog records I don't mean occasionally but consistently I film most DJs at nunny & have had to delete a lot of film so not to embarrass them but recently my toleration has waned .its not my intention to fall out or offend any one on the scene over this  .One of the reasons ive come back onto soul source is to make it known that this practice at All-nighters will stop before we end up with people influencing & watering down  of the scene .I know its harsh & I understand peoples frustration the they cant afford top tunes I just the same we need more DJs on the scene to play underplayed tunes that have filled dance floors in the past & are probably fearful of an empty floor  they should not be like that I would rather hear a 20 squid tune that some tired over played  top tune  . I try not to fall out with anyone but I am quite outspoken & very thick skinned & have been on the scene nearly 40 years so I feel ive been part of it a long time so I have the right to say my pennyworth. I willtry to be more careful on what I say on here .

well said, with that sentiment, spot on

2 minutes ago, geeselad said:

provenance comes with owning a one off acetate, of an unreleased tune, making a copy, another acetate, allows a dj to play the record out to the public, without damaging the only existing original recording. imho this is perfectly legitimate and totally practical, whilst still maintaining our mythical, underground credibility ethic. - so there! LOL.

Yes!

Hi everybody 

I wrote, then collaborated with Spyder Turner and tweaked the lyrics to make a co write of 'Tell me (crying over you)' (originally called 'Crying over you'), produced by Dennis Coffey, recorded in Detroit in March 2008 and released originally as a digital download from a 24bit studio mix, to a 16bit master. Then in 2009 I decided to press up vinyl at Archers in Detroit and ship to the UK and sell. My marketing is awful. I have loads left, even though the track has all real instruments on it, recorded in Detroit with some original Funk Brothers on the studio session and arranged by Motowns' David J. Van De Pitte, it just will not sell out and encourage me to press further releases of mine on to records. The original commercial release of 'Tell me' was digital. The 2nd release was vinyl. It is the same recording with both releases. The original demo from 2004 sits on my computer where it was originally authored, written, produced and demo'ed etc. The first batch of test pressings went wrong! The 'B' was double speed or something like that, so I have two batches of test pressings. I gave a few away to those who helped champion the release as a gift back in the day. Non of the incorrect test pressings were given away. They sit in a box on top of a shelf in my spare room. My Detroit session cost me five figures for 4 songs. If anybody wanted to licence and press up again, it would be a compliment to all involved with the session, the Detroit musicians Union who for example supported my initiative, and particularly Dennis Coffey, Spyder Turner Cherokee Pree and David J. Van De Pitte who made it all work. A fully legal licensed pressing should not be an impediment to the spirit of the song as much as it is. I need to recoup £10,000 from that session and knowing 'Tell me' gets played on occasions off its first vinyl pressing at events is very nice, but a second pressing where I get a further revenue stream is better, and a third pressing even better! So I hope that a new pressing plant will supply records to those who acknowledge the format to play their favourite songs no matter what generation of pressing it is. However, I do appreciate the collector and DJ's position...sort of...as I am neither. And yes, I would be available to DJ with some of my original 45's I bought in the early 70's like 'I got love'/Viola Wills (Bronco) and on President too! 

So, in a nut shell what I am trying to say, if anybody wants to buy one of the first wrong test pressings, I have decided to reduce the price from £8,000 each to £4,000 ha ha. If I sold 3 at that price I would break even!

Actually I am working on a cover version of 'Tell me (crying over you)' with The Delgonives to try and exploit the song and generate an income for both Spyder and myself as song writers and myself as a label. Latest demo here: 'Tell me (crying over you)'/The Delgonives

 

Edited March 3, 20178 yr by Carl Dixon

17 hours ago, maslar said:

Not really a fallacy since they  have an inevitable  marked deterioration due to the very nature of the material.  That may be from pristine (about 10 to 20 plays?) to eventually sounding like a rough vinyl/styrene record but it's still there and eventually it will be unlistenable.  Why would anyone wish that to happen to something they view as rare and/or collectable?  They are in effect deliberately destroying it since its being used for something it was never intended to do. The sensible - and only - thing to do would be to do a vinyl copy. But then again that wouldn't b an acetate

Every thing deteriorates with use.  But you said you can only play them a small number of times before they pack up which isn't true. I agree though I would protect any rare acetate only track etc by cutting a vinyl copy.

On 03/03/2017 at 14:38, chalky said:

Every thing deteriorates with use.  But you said you can only play them a small number of times before they pack up which isn't true. I agree though I would protect any rare acetate only track etc by cutting a vinyl copy.

Before the digital age acetates had a very specific function. That demanded a high level of audio fidelity. That diminishes rapidly with each subsequent play. Exactly how long you can play an acetate for before it's actually finished I have no idea. Simply because it's never occurred to me that anyone would wish to do such a thing. I said a small number and I stand by that. When I bought my first vinyl single, aged 12, I must have played it over 200 times in the first week. I've still got it and it still plays ok. That's what vinyl is designed to do.  Everything is relative.

If you create a vinyl copy of for example, an unreleased acetate, then that copy is a bootleg. That isn't to denigrate it. But by creating a vinyl copy, a tape or digital copy  you've created a bootleg. That's the reality. Of course the problem on the northern scene is that "bootleg" is a dirty word when it really shouldn't be, simply because it's almost always used incorrectly to describe illegal counterfeits (or pressings as I prefer to call them). This is the point I was making in the long debate last year (which I'm not getting into again -if you don't see it you're never going to get it). That's precisely why using the correct terms are important. Now you've got a vinyl carver and its a bootleg (an unauthorised copy of a unreleased/unavailable track).

The obvious problem is how does this "fit" with  the whole "original vinyl only" ethos?  There's a major contradiction there. If a dj has an unreleased acetate he/she only has three options as far as I can see:

1 Play it till it plays no more (pretty stupid)

2 make a number of acetate copies and play those as "acetates" until each wears out

3 Create a vinyl copy.

Both 2 and 3 above are bootlegs in the truest and finest sense of the word. There should be an accommodation for this within the whole OVO thing but to me  it looks like there isn't. Instead "bootleg" is replaced by the nicely sanitised "carver".  

Anyway this is going increasingly off topic and I haven't got much to add and don't really have any wish to repeat the long drawn out "bootleg"  debate again.

I would argue that the term "bootleg" is more about the intended use of the copy, than the copy itself.  If you made a vinyl copy of an acetate purely for your own use, in order to preserve the original acetate, I wouldn't call that a bootleg.  If on the other hand you made a vinyl copy, or multiple copies for financial gain, then I would class that as bootlegging.

1 minute ago, Steve S 60 said:

I would argue that the term "bootleg" is more about the intended use of the copy, than the copy itself.  If you made a vinyl copy of an acetate purely for your own use, in order to preserve the original acetate, I wouldn't call that a bootleg.  If on the other hand you made a vinyl copy, or multiple copies for financial gain, then I would class that as bootlegging.

Deffooo couldn't have been said any better !

29 minutes ago, Steve S 60 said:

I would argue that the term "bootleg" is more about the intended use of the copy, than the copy itself.  If you made a vinyl copy of an acetate purely for your own use, in order to preserve the original acetate, I wouldn't call that a bootleg.  If on the other hand you made a vinyl copy, or multiple copies for financial gain, then I would class that as bootlegging.

It's nothing to do with intended use. It is what it  is.  In record  collecting traditionally bootlegging wasn't for any financial gain anyway. But that's irrelevant. The copy is a bootleg. But like I said due to misuse and over generalization on the northern scene it's (wrongly) become a dirty word. 

But one thing- your vinyl carver (bootleg) is never going to be  is  original vinyl. (and neither is the ORIGINAL acetate). 

Edited March 5, 20178 yr by maslar
typo

58 minutes ago, maslar said:

Before the digital age acetates had a very specific function. That demanded a high level of audio fidelity. That diminishes rapidly with each subsequent play. Exactly how long you can play an acetate for before it's actually finished I have no idea. Simply because it's never occurred to me that anyone would wish to do such a thing. I said a small number and I stand by that. When I bought my first vinyl single, aged 12, I must have played it over 200 times in the first week. I've still got it and it still plays ok. That's what vinyl is designed to do.  Everything is relative.

If you create a vinyl copy of for example, an unreleased acetate, then that copy is a bootleg. That isn't to denigrate it. But by creating a vinyl copy, a tape or digital copy  you've created a bootleg. That's the reality. Of course the problem on the northern scene is that "bootleg" is a dirty word when it really shouldn't be, simply because it's almost always used incorrectly to describe illegal counterfeits (or pressings as I prefer to call them). This is the point I was making in the long debate last year (which I'm not getting into again -if you don't see it you're never going to get it). That's precisely why using the correct terms are important. Now you've got a vinyl carver and its a bootleg (an unauthorised copy of a unreleased/unavailable track).

The obvious problem is how does this "fit" with  the whole "original vinyl only" ethos?  There's a major contradiction there. If a dj has an unreleased acetate he/she only has three options as far as I can see:

1 Play it till it plays no more (pretty stupid)

2 make a number of acetate copies and play those as "acetates" until each wears out

3 Create a vinyl copy.

Both 2 and 3 above are bootlegs in the truest and finest sense of the word. There should be an accommodation for this within the whole OVO thing but to me  it looks like there isn't. Instead "bootleg" is replaced by the nicely sanitised "carver".  

Anyway this is going increasingly off topic and I haven't got much to add and don't really have any wish to repeat the long drawn out "bootleg"  debate again.

as I said earlier, if you have the only original acetate of a track YOU HAVE PROVENANCE, and therefore its perfectly acceptable to make a copy to play out. You suggest the practice is illegal and illegitimate, making it a bootleg, someone else may own the rights, but they don't have a recording of it so they cant have provenance, can they? Following your logic, original acetate's and indeed all demo copies shouldn't be played, as they should have never been sold to the public in the first place, does that make Demo's 'bootlegs' then?  

5 minutes ago, geeselad said:

as I said earlier, if you have the only original acetate of a track YOU HAVE PROVENANCE, and therefore its perfectly acceptable to make a copy to play out. You suggest the practice is illegal and illegitimate, making it a bootleg, someone else may own the rights, but they don't have a recording of it so they cant have provenance, can they? Following your logic, original acetate's and indeed all demo copies shouldn't be played, as they should have never been sold to the public in the first place, does that make Demo's 'bootlegs' then?  

I haven't suggested or stated any such thing.  where did I say this?

Thats isn't my logic at all.

 

 

Edited March 5, 20178 yr by maslar

Just now, maslar said:

I haven't suggested or stated any such thing.  where did I say this?

 

 

simply following your logic pal.

Just now, geeselad said:

simply following your logic pal.

I don't know what you're following but it definitely isn't my logic.

3 minutes ago, geeselad said:

simply following your logic pal.

Well good luck with that one! 

1 minute ago, Steve Lane said:

Well good luck with that one! 

It's pretty simple to understand. But then again you either get it or you don't. 

 

7 hours ago, maslar said:

It's pretty simple to understand. But then again you either get it or you don't. 

 

what a don't get is what you mean to achieve by your OPINIONS, do you whish to deter people from playing acetates(in any form) at OVO nights? stop punters from hearing unreleased cuts? or just generally pour scorn on the OVO debate?

OVO, for me is about maintaining a ethic, that stems right back to the origins of the scene, it aims to curtail mugs from diluting its underground codes and maintain the collecting of authentic recordings as the basis of the scene. Its never about pedantic point scoring.

Really uncertain why so many have had to state this point over and over.

52 minutes ago, geeselad said:

what a don't get is what you mean to achieve by your OPINIONS, do you whish to deter people from playing acetates(in any form) at OVO nights? stop punters from hearing unreleased cuts? or just generally pour scorn on the OVO debate?

OVO, for me is about maintaining a ethic, that stems right back to the origins of the scene, it aims to curtail mugs from diluting its underground codes and maintain the collecting of authentic recordings as the basis of the scene. Its never about pedantic point scoring.

Really uncertain why so many have had to state this point over and over.

What do I mean to achieve? Err nothing really. Isn't this a discussion forum?  I don't wish to stop anything. I'm all for playing and obtaining unreleased tracks.  I might seem pedantic but that's just how it is. How can you play acetates at an original VINYL only event? Of course you can and should be able to.  surely there should be some facility that recognises the status of these tracks (if copied?) as "Legitimate" bootlegs in addition to original vinyl? 

For example, if a dj turned up at an event with an unreleased track on a tape would it be ok to play it? To me it would since its no different than playing an acetate.  But obviously you're not into this type of thinking.  Actually I've been thinking about one of my earlier statements and I might change my mind - when I said a new vinyl copy isn't original vinyl. I suppose in a way it might be in the same way that an authorised unreleased track from a label such as Kent is viewed at totally legitimate to play. But it would still have it's unauthorised bootleg status - nothing wrong with that, I'm an advocate of bootlegs (making available to fans unreleased tracks). 

I've always had an interest in record collecting and with any interest I  like to analyse things. This may sound pedantic or obsessive but so what? On a serious point though - as one gets older its important to keep your mind active. Analysis and critical thinking (even low level) are really something more people should be engaged in. Especially in a time when everything in the media seems designed to dumb down one's senses.  

so endeth the sermon for today

Edited March 5, 20178 yr by maslar

3 hours ago, maslar said:

What do I mean to achieve? Err nothing really. Isn't this a discussion forum?  I don't wish to stop anything. I'm all for playing and obtaining unreleased tracks.  I might seem pedantic but that's just how it is. How can you play acetates at an original VINYL only event? Of course you can and should be able to.  surely there should be some facility that recognises the status of these tracks (if copied?) as "Legitimate" bootlegs in addition to original vinyl? 

For example, if a dj turned up at an event with an unreleased track on a tape would it be ok to play it? To me it would since its no different than playing an acetate.  But obviously you're not into this type of thinking.  Actually I've been thinking about one of my earlier statements and I might change my mind - when I said a new vinyl copy isn't original vinyl. I suppose in a way it might be in the same way that an authorised unreleased track from a label such as Kent is viewed at totally legitimate to play. But it would still have it's unauthorised bootleg status - nothing wrong with that, I'm an advocate of bootlegs (making available to fans unreleased tracks). 

I've always had an interest in record collecting and with any interest I  like to analyse things. This may sound pedantic or obsessive but so what? On a serious point though - as one gets older its important to keep your mind active. Analysis and critical thinking (even low level) are really something more people should be engaged in. Especially in a time when everything in the media seems designed to dumb down one's senses.  

so endeth the sermon for today

well it seems, my friend  that I mistook your pedantry for negative derision, and I apologise for that. Totally agree with the point you make regarding new plays, if its tape, cd, or even mp3 of a brand new unreleased or exclusive track its fine ethically in my book. Surely the point is that if its possible to play a track from original vinyl, then, at an event, it is played on that format, without diversion. That's why its not only more authentic but also more desirable to play an unreleased track from a vinyl, or acetate format, even if its one you pressed yourself. Amen.

You see brothers, it`s all about opinions 

 

 

 

On 01/03/2017 at 21:31, redditchcrew said:

 I don't think you come over as you have stated a Pratt as for todays prices it depends who you buy off if your sensible about it you should be able to get original

 vinyl at decent affordable prices as I try to .I just never have known anyone impressed with knock of goods or reproductions if you own a real Rolex I am impressed but if its from Hong kong naaaaa  .Same as a refabricated or copied scooter or motorbike  or guitar it just not the same as the real thing  what would rather a 1966 GP 200 or a a indian made GP 200 or a 200 scalmadi. not that there is a problem with either scooters they are just not the real thing .As for gifted records by females ill have to take you word on that one as I have been married for 32 years I would not put in print that even if it was so ,far to frighten of the mrs . reissues have there place but not the kind of thing you would openly admit to preferring im sure if you wore levis you would not be impressed with the same jeans with word lives on or a buy  knockoff handbag for the mrs ,

Lambretta GP didn't come out till 68