https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NORTHERN-SOUL-JUST-B...1QQcmdZViewItem

Whats this all about then ?????????

are these legit pressings or not

Who cares!!!! Get over it!!!

Limited re-issue so why auction it? Anything to do with "Eamesy" on here. Soul mine? Aldershot?

45s are gonna be made available that are in demand. Here's another.

ROD

Hmm, I've got an original going spare I might shove on Ebay. Any idea what is goes for now? (Don't say £5 )

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NORTHERN-SOUL-JUST-B...1QQcmdZViewItem

Whats this all about then ?????????

are these legit pressings or not

Drop Connie a line to at World War Three Publishing and ask her if she's given anyone permission recently to re-issue 'Just Because' by Pat & the Blenders - and could she let you have the company name/ name of individual who applied for the permission. And if they haven't, then you have your answer re: the legitimacy of the release - or an opportunity to press the title up legitimately yourself Jo

https://repertoire.bmi.com/publisher.asp?bl...querytype=PubID

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NORTHERN-SOUL-JUST-B...1QQcmdZViewItem

Whats this all about then ?????????

are these legit pressings or not

Edited February 23, 200718 yr by vinylvixen

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NORTHERN-SOUL-JUST-B...1QQcmdZViewItem

Whats this all about then ?????????

are these legit pressings or not

sorry about the multiple posts....my PC went wonky

Edited February 23, 200718 yr by vinylvixen

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NORTHERN-SOUL-JUST-B...1QQcmdZViewItem

Whats this all about then ?????????

are these legit pressings or not

Edited February 23, 200718 yr by vinylvixen

Drop Connie a line to at World War Three Publishing and ask her if she's given anyone permission recently to re-issue 'Just Because' by Pat & the Blenders - and could she let you have the company name/ name of individual who applied for the permission. And if they haven't, then you have your answer re: the legitimacy of the release - or an opportunity to press the title up legitimately yourself Jo

https://repertoire.bmi.com/publisher.asp?bl...querytype=PubID

It all depends upon which territory they were pressed in. If the are UK pressings they should obtain a mechanical license from MCPS acting on behalf of the publisher member. If it's a US pressing they should obtain a mechanical license from the Harry Fox Agency or other agents or direct from the publisher.

But if it's a bootleg, I doubt they would bother with mechanical licenses. In fact, many "legitimate" UK pressings manage to evade the mechanical license systems.

And, in addition, they should of course have obtained master licenses from the copyright owners.

Doesn't anyone know the seller?

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

It all depends upon which territory they were pressed in. If the are UK pressings they should obtain a mechanical license from MCPS acting on behalf of the publisher member. If it's a US pressing they should obtain a mechanical license from the Harry Fox Agency or other agents or direct from the publisher.

But if it's a bootleg, I doubt they would bother with mechanical licenses. In fact, many "legitimate" UK pressings manage to evade the mechanical license systems.

And, in addition, they should of course have obtained master licenses from the copyright owners.

Doesn't anyone know the seller?

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Think most of us do - he's on here - and is mentioned in the first post

Who cares!!!!

WHO CARES???

Well you can start with these people...

Artists

Writers

Producers

Musicians

Engineers

Publishers

Record companies

Copyright societies

Studios

Designers

Printers

Pressing plants

Distributors

Wholesalers

Exporters

Retailers

etc

...and anyone (including family members and employees) who depend on any of the above to make an honest living.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Edited February 23, 200718 yr by Paul

Many legitimate projects are damaged or completely scrapped because of bootlegs, counterfeits, pirates and illegal filesharing etc.

The UK soul bootleg economy is worth more than ONE MILLION POUNDS per annum.

And they don't pay taxes.

Paul Mooney

Think most of us do - he's on here - and is mentioned in the first post

Thanks Pete, I missed that. You should be a detective.

If someone asks the seller where he got them from, we might find out if these 45s are authentic or not.

Paul Mooney

WHO CARES???

Well you can start with these people...

Artists

Writers

Producers

Musicians

Engineers

Publishers

Record companies

Copyright societies

Studios

Designers

Printers

Pressing plants

Distributors

Wholesalers

Exporters

Retailers

etc

...and anyone (including family members and employees) who depend on any of the above to make an honest living.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Well said Paul. I loathe bootleggers.

It all depends upon which territory they were pressed in. If the are UK pressings they should obtain a mechanical license from MCPS acting on behalf of the publisher member. If it's a US pressing they should obtain a mechanical license from the Harry Fox Agency or other agents or direct from the publisher.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Paul, I was going to say all that but my phone line started acting up before I could finish my posts....and i've JUST got the PC up and running again. But it tickled me that a company called World War Three had someone called Connie at the controls. My aunty is called Connie and she lives in Rawtenstall....I wish she ran WW3 Publishing - she'd be a lot more exciting Anyway, I'll watch this thread with interest Jo

Paul, I was going to say all that but my phone line started acting up before I could finish my posts....and i've JUST got the PC up and running again. But it tickled me that a company called World War Three had someone called Connie at the controls. My aunty is called Connie and she lives in Rawtenstall....I wish she ran WW3 Publishing - she'd be a lot more exciting Anyway, I'll watch this thread with interest Jo

Hello Jo,

You're auntie Connie can have a job at Millbrand if she wants - especially if she's tough!

World War Three is part of Mighty Three Music Group which also includes the Assorted, Gamble-Huff, Razor Sharp and Downstairs Music catalogues etc.

Their UK sub-publisher is Warner Chappell.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

Hello Jo,

You're auntie Connie can have a job at Millbrand if she wants - especially if she's tough!

World War Three is part of Mighty Three Music Group which also includes the Assorted, Gamble-Huff, Razor Sharp and Downstairs Music catalogues etc.

Their UK sub-publisher is Warner Chappell.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

Shhhh, Paul...if Connie hears you, she would....inbetween knitting, taking the dog for a walk and doing the 'Take a Break' crossword. But she's very good at putting away index cards in alphabetical order...no - that's my Aunty Pat - she was a librarian in Poulton le Fylde...my aunties get everywhere But I'll have a job at Millbrand.... Jo

WHO CARES???

Well you can start with these people...

Artists

Writers

Producers

Musicians

Engineers

Publishers

Record companies

Copyright societies

Studios

Designers

Printers

Pressing plants

Distributors

Wholesalers

Exporters

Retailers

etc

...and anyone (including family members and employees) who depend on any of the above to make an honest living.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

Well said Paul.

.....and then there's collectors, music fans, real Djs and dancers too.

J.

Paul, I cannot disagree with your list of those who lose out or your assertion of the value of the soul bootleg economy. Well actually I can. Pressing plants!!

I was approaching the subject, maybe wrongly, that Shute was concerned that it was pressed and so a rare-ish 45 is "ruined". John kinda covers that angle in the last post which is nonsense IMO. I have it, Im a collector but a boot/re-issue has no effect on me.

OK, collectively it's a lot of money going into the wrong pockets but as an individual case were any monies to be shared out amongst the right people as listed by you I think the amount would be a long long way from an honest living. Peanuts in fact!!

If I were Pat I'd be asking old Connie why she's sat in her office answering irate queries from Vinyl Vixen instead of looking at her catalogue and maximising the return from it. I guess you'd know the answer to that better than myself.

Without wishing to be rude for someone who is ostensibly involved in protecting artistic copyright I find it amazing that you should need to ask who is selling these 45s when it took me around 2 seconds to read the Ebay ad to know, and post it for all to see.

And that was not out of some petty desire to see the lad in trouble but to further the thread. They may be legit for all I know. Again Im not involved in putting 45s out but I did hear about some system where you register what you issue and it's up to artists, writers etc to come and get their share.

So I don't condone bootlegging, I don't buy bootlegs. On the other hand I don't condemn people who do. If they can't afford the price of a rarity who am I to say they can't have it on a bootleg if they want to.

What I don't like is getting up in arms just because [geddit!!] you have the original.

ROD

I was approaching the subject, maybe wrongly, that Shute was concerned that it was pressed and so a rare-ish 45 is "ruined". John kinda covers that angle in the last post which is nonsense IMO. I have it, Im a collector but a boot/re-issue has no effect on me.

ROD

personally think the only thing thats "ruined" this particular record (and many other big sounds) is the constant hammer these records have by dj's these days and not the boot legging

like you said it doesn't really have any affect on the average joe blogs. I would agree with what Paul says but it's like banging your head against a brick wall at times trying to stop them. They've been at it since practically the beginning and they will still be there as long as there's a market for them.

Edited February 24, 200718 yr by chalky

Many legitimate projects are damaged or completely scrapped because of bootlegs, counterfeits, pirates and illegal filesharing etc.

The UK soul bootleg economy is worth more than ONE MILLION POUNDS per annum.

And they don't pay taxes.

Paul Mooney

What????? I'm presuming that there is another, much bigger earner than "northern soul" here because I'm sure the NS bootleg market is worth a fraction of that sum.

Edited February 24, 200718 yr by Pete-S

Well,stop in a bit more Chalky. I went to 2 clubs last night and didn't hear it all. I take your point though.

Thing is if a guy presses up some of whatever and no one bought them he'd be depriving nobody of anything. He'd be out of pocket in fact.

So to make these guys out as bogeymen is hysterical overkill. IMO better spend your time trying to "educate" [hate that word} the punters who buy them. No sales,no bootlegs.

Unfortunately record companies are rubbish from the point of view of making Northern available on vinyl. Either can't be bothered or not financially viable. So if Joe Bloggs can't afford £300 or whatever, then £15 is a bit of a bargain. They want the 45, they love the music. If the legit guys are useless what other alternative is there?

I know souless, glorified cassette CDs, with all the appeal of a wet haddock when compared to albums and 45s.

ROD

Probably gonna get shot down for this but bootlegs have always been part & parcel of the Northern scene.

Top name DJ breaks a new discovery, record goes massive, gets booted & everybody can get a copy (more than likely from a reputable dealer), said record gets dropped from top DJ's playlist & he breaks something new.

Just ask yourself this - How far forwards would the top DJ's playlists have moved on if stuff hadn't have been booted?

Strange thing is a lot of the early boots are now collectable in there own right, eg Mel Britt, Four Tracks, the Soul Sounds stuff etc.

Don't get me wrong, not condoning bootlegging but if the originals were not sold for vastly over-inflated prices in the 1st place maybe it wouldn't be so rife.

As for no money going to the original artist how much do they recieve from the so called legitimate re-issues?

Very little if anything, that's how much.

Don't believe me? just ask e'm.

What????? I'm presuming that there is another, much bigger earner than "northern soul" here because I'm sure the NS bootleg market is worth a fraction of that sum.

Sadly it's true, Pete. Please do the sums...

Just take a recent period during which one hundred counterfeit / pirate / bootleg 45s have been pressed in batches of 500 to 1,000 of each with a typical retail value of £10.00 per unit. That total retail value comes to £1,000,000.00 (one million pounds).

Then add £45,000.00 for lost mechanical royalty income at statutory rates and another £100,000.00 for lost master licensing income at typical rates.

Then consider that EVEN MORE tracks are issued again and again on CD albums without a master license - and of course they also evade further mechanical royalty payments (as do many apparently legitimate issues). The fact is that many bootlegs are perceived to be legitimate.

Each unauthorised CD album which sells even 3,000 units has an average retail value of £24,000.00 - and there are MANY of them every year. Even if there were only twenty such albums you're looking at another £500,000.00 (half a million pounds) plus further loss of mechanical royalty and master licene income.

I could go on and on... Many titles are also unlawfully sub-licensed to other companies for compilations which can sell as many as 35,000 units in high street chains and supermarkets. Yes, bootleggers also sell "rights" to other parties!

If you multiply these figures to account for the MANY years of criminal activity, you begin to see just how much money has been stolen by a small number of people.

And I doubt these people pay VAT, income tax and corporation tax on their criminal proceeds.

Believe me, the true amounts are absolutely staggering. Why do you think people get threatened and intimidated?

Paul Mooney

Sadly it's true, Pete. Please do the sums...

Just take a recent period during which one hundred counterfeit / pirate / bootleg 45s have been pressed in batches of 500 to 1,000 of each

Hold on, we can't start like that because in any given year I doubt there are more than 30 titles done, if that! The main source a couple of years ago was doing one batch of 6 to 8 titles to tie in with Prestatyn. Those stopped. The occasional one will come out from the States, but apart from the recent lot, where do you get a hundred titles from?

Well,stop in a bit more Chalky. I went to 2 clubs last night and didn't hear it all. I take your point though.

ROD

Heard at two of the last three venues I've been two, last weekend being the last time I heard it. Trouble is can't stop in well not too often, love the music too much, hammered to death or not and just not the same at home

Edited February 24, 200718 yr by chalky

...bootlegs have always been part & parcel of the Northern scene...

Burglars, for example, have always been part and parcel of life. So do we just let them walk away with our hard-earned cash and possessions???

Sadly, your comments have just proved they've been robbing people for so very long that some people begin to accept it as a "normal practice". That is very dangerous attitude.

Even if YOUR money isn't being stolen and YOUR livelihood isn't being damaged, you should be able to distinguish between right and wrong.

My simple philosophy in life is that every man has a right to be paid for his work. If one man is robbed, other men should help him. And if they don't help him, they could be robbed next.

Paul Mooney

...we can't start like that because in any given year I doubt there are more than 30 titles done...

Hello,

I said take a recent period, I'm not going to split straws over exactly how many items are bootlegged each year. Just look on ebay, monitor some big sellers and do the sums again. And please read my post again - especially with regard to products which aren't generally perceived to be bootlegs, unauthorised CDs, sub-licensing scams, etc.

It's highly-organised and systematic theft, fraud and deception. Please don't defend it.

I can't ask you to share my views, Pete, but please don't question the amounts. One bootlegger even bragged about the millions he has made. There are so many things I can't say in public.

Paul Mooney

Hello,

I said take a recent period, I'm not going to split straws over exactly how many items are bootlegged each year. Just look on ebay, monitor some big sellers and do the sums again. And please read my post again - especially with regard to products which aren't generally perceived to be bootlegs, unauthorised CDs, sub-licensing scams, etc.

It's highly-organised and systematic theft, fraud and deception. Please don't defend it.

I can't ask you to share my views, Pete, but please don't question the amounts. One bootlegger even bragged about the millions he has made. There are so many things I can't say in public.

Paul Mooney

I'm not interested in cd's and mp3's whatever, I'm talking, as a record dealer, about 45rpm vinyl bootlegs and I'm telling you that I know more or less how many come out in a year, I'm not defending it I'm stating fact. Don't try to muddy the waters by bringing in licensing etc, and you're also trying to twist my words to make it look like I'm defending it, why would you want to do that? I'm talking about 7" vinyl and nothing else and I'd like to know, from you, a list of all 7" vinyl bootlegs pressed in 2006 that were available in the UK.

Sadly it's true, Pete. Please do the sums...

Just take a recent period during which one hundred counterfeit / pirate / bootleg 45s have been pressed in batches of 500 to 1,000 of each with a typical retail value of £10.00 per unit. That total retail value comes to £1,000,000.00 (one million pounds).

It will only amount to £1,000,000 if they sell all copies at £10 each, but you don't mention how much it costs to have these records made up (plus sleeves), so surely the sum would be a lot less than £1,000,000?

Please Note: The Following is all hypothetical, I'm just trying to play Devil's Advocate.

Can someone give me advice on what they recommend me to do with regards the following. I would like a copy of the Isley Brothers - Your Love Is My Love on 7" vinyl incase I ever wanted to play it out. Now I have it on the MFP LP that it was originally released, which I paid a quid for at some car boot sale (of that £1 I don't believe The Isley Bros will see anything), but I don't want to cart LP's about. I also have it on the Tamla Motown Connoisseurs CD, which I paid about a fiver for in some shop (how much of that would The Isley Bros see?), but we are continually told that this scene is based on vinyl not CD's. So do I pay £25 to have vinylcarvers do me a 7" of it or just buy a boot for a fiver off ebay? By my reckoning and from what I've previously read it's seems OK to pay £25 to have LP and CD tracks (that I own) put on 7" and played out, but not to buy and play out a £5 boot of the same track. Why would I want to pay an extra £20, when I know full well the original artists would not see a penny of either the £25 let alone the fiver!

Finished the Advocaat now.

The problem is there are counterfeit goods (for want of a better word) everywhere, records, clothes, computer software, dvd's, the list is endless. You'll never be able to stop it, you can only choose whether you buy them or not. At the end of the day you are only responsible for your own actions.

Burglars, for example, have always been part and parcel of life. So do we just let them walk away with our hard-earned cash and possessions???

Sadly, your comments have just proved they've been robbing people for so very long that some people begin to accept it as a "normal practice". That is very dangerous attitude.

Even if YOUR money isn't being stolen and YOUR livelihood isn't being damaged, you should be able to distinguish between right and wrong.

My simple philosophy in life is that every man has a right to be paid for his work. If one man is robbed, other men should help him. And if they don't help him, they could be robbed next.

Paul Mooney

I wish you had quoted all of my post Paul instead of just one line.

If you read it all you will see that i was commenting on the whole picture of the Northern scene in general.

Totally agree with you 100% that every man has a right to be paid for his work but the simple fact is that even with the so called legal re-issues he don't always get paid.

Classic example is the Grapevine release of Hey Little Way Out Girl that was released under it's cover up title. How much did the artist get out of that deal (that's if they even knew about it) & Grapevine was owned by RCA.

End of the day it all come's down to supply & demand & not only with rare 7" vinyl.

Wether it be perfume, clothing, handbags, DVD'S etc.

If the original item is overpriced the man in the street is going to buy the cheaper item.

Like i said in my original post i'm not condoning bootlegging at all but perhaps if the original item wasn't so expensive in the 1st place a lot less would take place.

I hadn't even mentioned mp3s, Pete, and we shouldn't really be splitting criminal activities into formats. I know you're a record dealer and I know you're interested in vinyl, but I'm interested in the bigger picture: Right is right, wrong is wrong. You're either for it or against it.

Is it okay to bootleg a CD but not a 7" single? Is it okay to rob a teenager but not a pensioner? Is it okay to steal a red car but not a blue one?

We could debate these things forever and ever. All we're doing is getting distracted from the real issues.

I wasn't twisting your words, I respect your opinions, I don't mind if you challenge my estimated figures and I don't mind if you don't share my views.

But I get so frustrated when I feel that I have to justify my objections to criminals.

Paul Mooney

...but you don't mention how much it costs to have these records made up (plus sleeves), so surely the sum would be a lot less than £1,000,000?

I clearly said the TOTAL RETAIL VALUE comes to £1,000,000.00

I'm sorry I didn't reduce that by any small costs that might be incurred by these unfortunate bootleggers. Maybe we should have a whip round for them?

I was more concerned with the huge amounts they steal from other people.

Sorry for being so unfair and biased.

Paul Mooney

I wish you had quoted all of my post Paul instead of just one line.

If you read it all you will see that i was commenting on the whole picture of the Northern scene in general.

Totally agree with you 100% that every man has a right to be paid for his work but the simple fact is that even with the so called legal re-issues he don't always get paid.

Classic example is the Grapevine release of Hey Little Way Out Girl that was released under it's cover up title. How much did the artist get out of that deal (that's if they even knew about it) & Grapevine was owned by RCA.

End of the day it all come's down to supply & demand & not only with rare 7" vinyl.

Wether it be perfume, clothing, handbags, DVD'S etc.

If the original item is overpriced the man in the street is going to buy the cheaper item.

Like i said in my original post i'm not condoning bootlegging at all but perhaps if the original item wasn't so expensive in the 1st place a lot less would take place.

Hello,

I don't know anything about that particular deal but I understand it was legitimately licensed and I expect mechanical royalties were also paid at statutory rates by RCA (who didn't own Grapevine but marketed and distributed the label in those days). And by the way I wasn't involved in Grapevine then and I'm not speaking here as an associate of Grapevine today.

There's no need repeating the same points over and over again, we've discussed this subject many times. Right is right, wrong is wrong ...and two wrongs don't make a right.

But I agree about supply and demand and expensive records. People want music and sometimes it isn't available or it's too expensive so they make other choices - all of which are understandable. It's those who make the bootlegs I'm against, not the people who choose to buy them (unwittingly or not).

And I can assure you that many artists / publishers / producers / copyright owners DO get paid by UK record companies. There are members of this forum who are associated with record companies who have very good reputations.

Paul Mooney

Edited February 24, 200718 yr by Paul