A couple of recent threads have got me thinking where the line between love and hate, or 60's traditional Northern and 70s Crossover begins.

Without stating the obvious chronological fact, its not enough.

An example may be 'Baby Boy' Fred Hughes. It lends itself to 'shuffling type dancing' similar to crossover, but its regarded as classic 60s Northern.

Its always going to be a matter of opinion with shades of grey as opposed to black and white.

This probably explains why I look for the 'soul' rather than type of beat to judge if its a winner or loser.

Ed

It's not about the date, it's about the sound...

It's not about the date, it's about the sound...

Actually, Rachel, the term 'Crossover Soul' (in the UK Soul Scene sense) was originally coined entirely about the date... and the sound that emanated from that period...

i.e. the 'crossover' period... crossing over from the 60's to the 70's.

Sean

I was being a bit flippant Sean, but I think that now, like Northern, Crossover is more defined by a particular sound than by a range of dates. Most of it comes from that late 60s/ early 70s period but I think there are examples from outwith that which fit in because of their sound.. and of course records released at that time which don't sound 'Crossovery'.. if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I'm bored.. I'm rambling.. so I'm going shopping

Anyway, I'm bored.. I'm rambling.. so I'm going shopping

Yeh... good idea!

Hope it's better shopping weather where you are.

Sean

I'd agree with Sean and Rachel, the late 60's early 70's, say '68 to '73 or at a stretch '75. Some dealers it seems are a bit loose with the term when it comes to selling, maybe because crossover does seem very collectable and maybe using the term will increase the potential for a sale.

I've even seen 80's soul described as crossover but maybe that was the late 70's to early 80's crossover period

Fred Hughes "Baby Boy" I would never consider crossover

Late sixties to early seventies-usually has that particular crossover horns sound and superior production to earlier stuff! The Ultimates, Richard Caiton, Ollie Nightingale....

I wouldn't class Fred Hughes as crossover-definitely Northern Soul to me!

It's not about the date, it's about the sound...

And the definition. Which is ...?

Anyone?

And the definition. Which is ...?

Anyone?

Mid tempo or slower music from the late 60's to early 70's which sits in neither the 60's northern or the 70's dancer camp.

Mid tempo or slower music from the late 60's to early 70's which sits in neither the 60's northern or the 70's dancer camp.

Yeah understand that much.

Where it gets confusing is where non soul records, eg 60's stuff - (maybe white) is played - has 'crossed over' to be played on northern scene, but isn't allowed to be called 'Crossover'..

Edited June 22, 200718 yr by Simsy

Here's the definitive definition or explanation - copied from my previous two posts on the subject a few months ago!

The term 'Crossover Soul' was first used over here (in the UK) by Rod Dearlove at Thorne (Canal Tavern) to describe those records produced in the late 60's and early 70's that were neither:-

a) Typical 60's style Soul / Motownesque tunes

or

b ) Typical 70's 'strings n' things' productions.

These records had not really gained mass favour on the UK 'Northern' scene as they weren't 'typical' Motown styled 60's sounding records.

Nor had they been well received on the 'Modern' scene as they weren't necessarily 'uptempo, new or 'zippy' enough for the modern crowd.

These were records produced around that 4-5 year 'crossover' period between the 60's and the 70's.

The term 'Crossover Soul' in the UK 'Soul Scene' sense does not refer to music that 'crossed over' from the R&B charts to the mainstream (as in the US sense) nor does it mean records that 'crossed over' from the 'Modern' rooms to the 'Northern' rooms.

Typical 'Crossover Soul' records referred to at the time that the phrase was first used in this context (late 80's / Early 90's) would have included:-

Bobby Reed "The Time Is Right For Love"

Soul Brothers Inc "That Loving Feeling"

Frank Lynch "Young Girl"

Enchanted Five "Have You Ever"

Vivian Copeland "Key In The Mailbox"

LJ Reynolds "All I Need"

Sandra Wright "Midnight Affair"

Ultimates "Girl I've Been Trying To Tell You"

Tyrone St German "In A World So Cold"

Sy Hightower "I Wonder Why"

100 Proof "Don't You Wake Me"

Will Hatcher "You Haven't Seen Nothing Yet"

Ray Frazier "These Eyes"

None of these had been acknowledged 'Northern' or 'Modern' soul records (wrong tempo and wrong 'sound' for the Northern scene... and far too old for the other).

All of the above, though, fitted the 'Crossover Soul' genre and the Thorne crowd's requirements perfectly.

In the past 15 or so years (since the phrase was first used to describe records from this period) this 'sound' and type of record has since 'crossed over' to the Northern Scene alerting many people to that rich period of Soul artistry, the late 60's and early 70's... and confusing others as to the definition.

Ultimately, though, we have Rod Dearlove to thank for breaking the mould.

Sean Hampsey

Edited June 22, 200718 yr by Sean Hampsey

And the definition. Which is ...?

Anyone?

its a sound from between late 60s to earlyish 70s Simsy,

I hope that clears it up for you,

when does crossover no longer become crossover, then what does it become, Disco/modern ?

all a bit confusing at times with certain tunes i say

Yeah understand that much.

Where it gets confusing is where non soul records, eg 60's stuff - (maybe white) is played - has 'crossed over' to be played on northern scene, but isn't allowed to be called 'Crossover'..

Theres nothing confusing mate, we don't refer to any other type or era of music on THIS scene as crossover. Well I don't and I don't hear other collectors or dealers use it to describe anything else, I don't see it on sales list or playlists either. For the intents and purposes of the UK soul scene crossover is the period we are talking about here.

If it's 60's maybe white, the example you give it's simply northern soul. I don't hear it described as anything else, apart from the occasional, pop and sh*te If it's 70's and a dancer it's usually described as such, a 70's dancer. Same goes for R&B etc etc. Simple really

Edited June 22, 200718 yr by chalky

its a sound from between late 60s to earlyish 70s Simsy,

I hope that clears it up for you,

when does crossover no longer become crossover, then what does it become, Disco/modern ?

all a bit confusing at times with certain tunes i say

I would say that the production techniques, style etc differed greatly in the mid/latter 70's to the techniques/style used during the late 60's early 70's period and therfore it had a sound all of it's own, be it slowie or dancer

I would say that the production techniques, style etc differed greatly in the mid/latter 70's to the techniques/style used during the late 60's early 70's period and therfore it had a sound all of it's own, be it slowie or dancer

Nice one Chalky,

a tune that i just love that for me feels a bit of 60s/70s but is a 1974 production is the Brewster Crew - im one who knows, or is it my hearing or is that proper crossover.

Bearsy

For me crossover is basically late 60's early 70's (Sean has already given as definate an example as i think one could) but i do believe the sound is basically ones own perception and like many genres of the soul scene each person has his/her definition of that style of music, which for me is marvellous because i loathe with a passion anything that is pigeonholed and catergorized by so called authority figures within a movement, basically what i'm saying is that it has a loose boundary and i feel that can expand over a period of time and as such evolve to include various "sounds".

Brett................

by the way i'll be playing my version of "Crossover" next Friday in Sheffield at that fellow Higgins do....What about you Sean ?

I'd agree with Sean and Rachel, the late 60's early 70's, say '68 to '73 or at a stretch '75. Some dealers it seems are a bit loose with the term when it comes to selling, maybe because crossover does seem very collectable and maybe using the term will increase the potential for a sale.

I've even seen 80's soul described as crossover but maybe that was the late 70's to early 80's crossover period

Fred Hughes "Baby Boy" I would never consider crossover

Basically I agree, and it is partly the time period, but mainly the sound that defines crossover, as it is with modern and northern too. Therefore there are late 70's and even 80's records that are definitely crossover, since they have the right sound. This sound was probably very dated at the time, but it sounds 'crossover' for us today. There are also relatively early 60's records that fit the bill, due to having the right sound. And then there are loads of sounds that won't easily be categorised by us and that can fit in several of our made up sub genres. But you know all this already of course and I am just rambling to myself.

Edited June 22, 200718 yr by Guest

so now, does crossover = tent music?

so now, does crossover = tent music?

I think the term "tent music" first came out after Fleetwood weekenders.... the Northern Room stayed pretty much 60's full on Northern.... and the Modern Room stayed pretty much "new release" Modern with quite a bit of "boom boom" (House & Garage type)....

The newly introduced third "tent" room (a marquee tent) had no politics and played a cross selection of of the more "early and late underplayed 60's" and all parts of the 70's, with a bit of 80's come 90's (Modern Oldies ) thrown in....

The "main stay" was probably Crossover so the two seem to be used to mean the same thing these days.... all IMO of course....

Edited June 24, 200718 yr by vaultofsouler

Assuming then that 'the 'crossover' starting point was the late 60's, it obvious that there are more records available and perhaps still many to discover.

The change in style from crossover up to present day has been more gradual and progressive.

Ralph McDonalds - The Path, is a great record to follow how musical styles evolve.

Maybe some artist could do the same thing from 60s stomper to todays more sophisticated output.

Ed

it starts when you put it on .....and ends when you whipp it off, and snap it over your knee ...co's its shit!!!!!

Thanks for the definitions of "Crossover".I get it now...Got given a copy of a John Manship's catalogue by a nice bloke called Stozz/Stose (?) in his soul shop in Wolves and couldn't find the term "Crossover" in there.Is it "soulful dance"?!!! Its all soul music to me...

Edited June 30, 200718 yr by shuggie61