Amsterdam Russ

Pva/craft and wood glue are one and the same thing.

In the UK, you must have a TV Licence to watch TV. When you have one in the UK, you are licensed to watch TV. In the USA, you must have a gun License to own a gun. When you have one in the USA, you are licensed to kill people.

The font used for the group, title, etc appears to be Helvetica - a very hot typeface of the 1960s design world. I know - that doesn't help!

A creative work (and that includes a record label design) cannot be owned by someone and be in the public domain at the same time. However, in the commercial world (and let's keep it to records), copyright owners are happy to allow the distribution of their designs (record labels), because this aids in the promotion of them. And therein lies the rub. Scanning labels and using the images online to draw attention to the record company and its products is absolutely tolerated. However, you stick (for example) a scan of a Motown 45 or the logo on a t-shirt and, unless you have a merchandising licence from Motown, you'll be in trouble and the company will want to sue your proverbial ass off. Infringement of copyright will be one of the things you'll be charged with (along with illegal use of a trademark; producing, marketing and selling illegal merchandise, etc, etc). What defines how you can use something like a label scan is context. If it is being used in a way that benefits the copyright owner, then it is unlikely to create a problem. If an image is used in a way that benefits the user, but is to the detriment of the owner, then trouble is likely to follow. Usual disclaimer applies: I am not a lawyer, I'm not qualified at anything, if symptoms persist, please seek medical advice, blah, blah

There are significant differences between US and UK copyright laws. In the US, a scan or photo of an 'artwork' is not considered as a copyrightable work of art in its own right. In the UK however, a scan or photo of a work of art is protected by copyright. However, this protection only applies if the scan or image work is either a) modified so as to be considered a new work in its own right (therefore "a derivative"), or b) the work put into creating the scan or photo is of a high professional standard. A couple of years ago there was a major case whereby high quality photos of paintings (possibly from the collection of the UK's National Portrait Gallery) were used by Wikipedia. The images commissioned by the museum were extremely high resolution, full-sized photos and required much professional and technical expertise to create them. As such works can only be made by experts who must devote many hours to creating them, this effort is recognised by UK copyright laws. Basically, even though they are 'only' photos, they are treated in law as if they were creative works. As such, they have full copyright protection. The Americans don't see it this way and think that if you're just taking a photo, or using a scanner, then the technology produces the work, not the person - no creative effort goes into making them. It's because of this difference in perspectives that the legal case between US-based Wikipedia and the UK-based museum came about. What's the point of this? Well, certainly in the UK, scans, even of record labels, are copyright protected - but only if the person doing the scan also puts a good amount of effort into making them more than simply just a digital copy of the object. Put the scan into Photoshop and create a new design, one that features the label (for example) as a theme, and you may well have created an original work. As such, it is automatically copyright protected. When a work is created, you do not have to include a copyright statement (for example: © - Me, me, me: all rights reserved, 2012) when publishing them. Having said that, it is best to include a copyright statement as this makes it clear to potential infringers that the rights to the image are indeed assigned to an owner. Also, the first thing an image snatcher will say in their defence is "Oh, but you didn't say that it was copyright protected, so I assumed it wasn't!" Ignorance, of course, is no defence in law.

Out of interest, is there a statement about copyright and ownership of uploaded images in the site's T&C's?

I agree that the penned message appears to convey "JM's" disappointment and frustration. If Melfi was merely demonstrating a song that he hoped Hayes might take on, then he succeeded, albeit with a different artist on vocals. No need to pen Hayes the terse note in that case, surely? After all, Melfi would receive the writer's credit no matter who sang it. As you say Paul, perhaps Melfi did demo the song with a view to Hayes recording it himself. Not only the spoken intro, but the slower tempo and the bassy feel of the backing arrangement would be very much in keeping with Isaac's style. Maybe it is Melfi singing. I expect it is - this would make sense. Whether it was with a view to Melfi's version, or a Hayes interpretation being released, we'll never know. Absolutely, a sound clip of Melfi's late 70s recordings, or any recording, would go a long way to identifying whether he is singing his own song on this disc. Anyone got, or can find a clip of Melfi singing??

So, these are the version of the song we have... * The Tymes, Columbia, 1969 * Paul Anka, RCA (LP track), 1969 * Unidentified demo/acetate, 1970 * Casper Peters - Enterprise, 1970 * 3 Degrees - Roulette, 1972 * The Players - Chocolate City, 1975 * Cameo - Casablanca, 1977 * Duane Clark - Spark, 1978 * Johnny Melfi's Unison - Pyramid?, 1978 Any more info or additions..?

There's a soundclip of the Duane Clark to be had on this page: https://www.cdandlp.com/item/2/0-220204-0-1-0/2946045933/duane-clark-find-my-way.html That disco sound is really not my cup of tea. Each to their own, of course. Would like to hear a clip if this if anyone has it, or can find it online...

Here's what I know about this acetate... ¨ ¨With the acetate came a 45 of the Casper Peters' version on Enterprise. On the paper sleeve of this is a handwritten note that reads: ¨ ¨ Dear Isaac:- All I want to know is why?? ¨ ¨ The note is signed off with initials that look as if they read: JM. Reinforcing the question is an arrow pointing at the label of the Casper Peters' version. Pic attached... Steve Cropper and Don Nix produced the Casper Peters 45, and Stax distributed the record. It seems reasonable to think that perhaps the Isaac being addressed is Isaac Hayes. However, is there any connection to the man? Both discs came from the estate sale of an old lady who, in her day, had been an antiques dealer. Among the lots for sale were a number of boxes containing personal items once belonging to Isaac Hayes. It's thought that the antiques dealer might have bought these boxes at what I believe is called a lien sale. That, as I understand it, is when the tax authorities seize your assets and sells them off to the public, thus recouping some outstanding tax. It is thought that after buying the boxes as a job lot, the lady left them in storage for years, possibly, I'm told, since the early 80s. As has been pointed out, the writer of "Find my way" was Johnny Melfi. With the initials on the sleeve being "JM" could it be that Melfi scribbled the tersely written note to Hayes? Had Melfi cut a new arrangement of the song and sent it to Hayes in the hope he'd get it released through Stax? Certainly, Hayes had control over such things then. Perhaps Hayes decided that the new arrangement was good, but not good enough, and so got Steve Cropper and Nix do their thing on it and had Casper Peters record it. Unmistakably, there are many similarities between the arrangements of the two versions. If any of this is correct, it dates the acetate version - the possible demo cut - to before the Casper Peters cut, which was released in 1970. There's no documentation to substantiate this, only the story told to me and the facts that the acetate and the 45 were found together in the possessions that once belonged to Isaac Hayes, and the tantalizing coincidence that the initials just happen to be that of the songwriter...

I think you're probably about on the button there. There happens to be bit of a back story which supports this, one involving Isaac Hayes. When I get a bit of time, hopefully later in the day, I'll explain the connection and what little information I know...

Ah, I see where you're coming from...

Thanks for the suggestions. Someone also suggested to me that it might be Lou Rawls, I expect because of the spoken intro more than anything else. But, as with OC Smith, it would need to be sung about an octave lower to be convincing - and the voice is just not rich enough for it to be either. That aside, it doesn't sound like Rawls or Smith. Vocals are nowhere near trademark warbly enough to be Johnny Mathis, surely? Paul Anka - would be interesting to hear a clip of his version, even though it's not him. This compilation? No mention of it on that. Somewhere else, perhaps?

I've been asking around and so far no one has been able to identify the artist. Perhaps it might have been more sensible to put up a sample first, but here it is now. The acetate it comes from provides no details of the singer/group. https://soundcloud.com/harveysoulfinger/find-my-way-unknown-unreleased All help in identifying the singer appreciated...

A quick trawl online turned up this courtesy of someone's request through the Freedom of Information Act. Just to be clear, these figures relate to the UK's Royal Mail (so figures are in pounds Sterling). Mis-delivery... now if ever a term was conjured up out of a PR exec's hat..!

I take it you didn't read the beginning of this thread

No, the version I have definitely isn't any of those...

No, epoxy is a different type of adhesive all together. Let's put it this way, if you applied epoxy to a 45, I don't think it would come off - ever!

The quote you pulled from the article suggests that yellow may be better for getting into grooves, cracks, etc. Certainly that's how I read it. At the end of the day, as long as you only use carpenter's wood glue (which will come off easily) you should not have a problem. Whether yellow is better than white, or vice-versa, no idea. But it might be fun to find out.

I've only used the white glue and have found that to be excellent. As mentioned earlier, filling the grooves with the stuff does not appear to be a problem at all. If, on the other hand, the yellow glue has better gap-filling capabilities, then it may do a better job. Just to confirm, what I'm suggesting is to use the Elmer's carpenter's wood glue product. I don't see "glue all" in this range and I think we may be having a bit of confusion. If you click through the link to their wood glue range, the products you want are on the bottom half of the page, not the top where the 'glue all' is shown. There are nine carpenter's wood glues in the range and 'glue all' is not among them. In the video above, the person says they're using Titebond II. That appears to be exactly the same as Elmer's wood glue in all but name: https://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2#

Thanks, Paul. Think the UK release was on the parent, Casablanca. Anyway, the reason for asking is that I have a version of the song on acetate from c. 1970, which I haven't been able to identify as yet. Good version it is too with a strong male lead.

Yes, same group, same song, but listed because if I hadn't someone would have come along and told me I'd forgotten it!

How many version of the song "Find my way" are there? I know of these versions... * The Tymes, Columbia, 1969 * Casper Peters - Enterprise, 1970 * 3 Degrees - Roulette, 1972 * The Players - Chocolate City, 1975 * Cameo - Casablanca, 1977 Are there any others?

I did take a look. Did you read my post above? Post 52 - the link is to their range of PVA/wood glues. The technical data (the MSDS sheet) describes the colour as 'light yellow'. If you want to know the difference between white and yellow PVA, have a read of this. https://www.woodbin.com/ref/etc/woodworking_glues.htm

Click on any of the products on that site Bob, and on the left hand side you'll see a text link that reads "View MSDS Sheet". A quick scan of that tells you whether it is PVA or not. Here's the Elmer's selection of wood glues, all of which appear to be PVA based... https://www.elmers.com/products/glues-and-adhesives/wood Aha, my partner Bev has just walked in. She works with adhesives and the like professionally. I asked her about what passes as PVA/Wood glue in the States and without a moment's pause said Elmer's - and that's without her knowing we were talking about it on here. Get yourself down the shops Bob, buy a small container of the stuff and have a go on a trashed 45...