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Ascap Unlisted?

Guest mirja m profile photo
Posted

HI,

I am looking for as many unlisted Soul Singles as possible.

Which records were not listed for royalties and are thus of no value for the ASCAP, GEMA or MCPS.

We are currently investigating the neccesity of paying royalties for soul events to the big companies, although the old artists never see any of the money.

Please help, since it will benefit all soul promoters all over the world.

(and of yourse for the artists)

cheers,

mirja

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Guest Paul profile photo
Posted

Hello,

ASCAP, BMI, MCPS and GEMA are collection / licensing societies for writers, not artists. If you want to pay fees for public performance in clubs, for example, you should approach PRS (for writers and publishers) and PPL (for artists and record companies). That's if you're in the UK.

As most obscure soul songs are not registered, it's highly unlikely that your payments would benefit the actual writers or artists.

And I can't see how it would benefit "all soul promoters all over the world"?

Maybe you could explain more about what you're trying to do.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

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Guest mirja m profile photo
Posted

hey thank you for your reply.

well at present, all money paid to any institution collecting money for artists, writers or anybody else involved will only pay the money to the right people, if they can find them.

so what happenes most of the time is the following.

a frankie beverley record is played in a soul club and the promoter, owner of the place or whoever pays money to an institution.

this institution claims to send the money to the right person only :IF THEY CAN FIND THEM

but rather than going through the trouble of looking for some obscure writers, artists etc.

the money from the ones they cannot find will go into a big pot.

this pot is split up between the biggest selling artists.

so the money paid for playing the frankie beverley record will possibly go to robby williams and the crazy frog etc.

but the institution is only able to collect money, if the records played are listed with the ascap, gema or other companies.

so instead of paying money to robby williams for playing frankie beverley, i'd like to find as many unlisted and unregistered records as possible.

this could lead to soul-events not being forced to pay to any institution and this would free more money for soul events.

and this could lead to some things we did earlier. we just send checks to the artist, we played most.

more work for us, but very much more rewarding for the people who deserve it.

i am sure there must be stuff that is impossible to find.

and if they want to prove the money we pay them will arrive at the right person, they can definately not fulfill their promise.

this way we could show those institutions that it makes more sense to pay the artists, writers etc. directly than paying robby williams for it.

even if we only take the ones we played most and concentrate on 100 mostplayed records per year.

still better than paying robby williams or the crazy frog.

;-)

if you have more detailed info,

please get back..

cheers,

m

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Posted

a frankie beverley record is played in a soul club and the promoter, owner of the place or whoever pays money to an institution.

Nice idea but how many do?? The venue buys a performing rights license and thats the end of it I think.

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Guest Netspeaky profile photo
Posted (edited)

HI,

I am looking for as many unlisted Soul Singles as possible.

Which records were not listed for royalties and are thus of no value for the ASCAP, GEMA or MCPS.

We are currently investigating the neccesity of paying royalties for soul events to the big companies, although the old artists never see any of the money.

Please help, since it will benefit all soul promoters all over the world.

(and of yourse for the artists)

cheers,

mirja

The days when you had to list every record that you played have long gone, it's all tied up in a general music licence, this covers the right to play music at a venue. I can't see how you will be able to justify your argument sorry. Even if you played your own muisc (original created) you need a licence to play it at a licenced venue. :thumbsup: Edited by Netspeaky

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Posted

HI,

I am looking for as many unlisted Soul Singles as possible.

Which records were not listed for royalties and are thus of no value for the ASCAP, GEMA or MCPS.

We are currently investigating the neccesity of paying royalties for soul events to the big companies, although the old artists never see any of the money.

Please help, since it will benefit all soul promoters all over the world.

(and of yourse for the artists)

If The Venue that puts on a soul do or any other do for that matter...is operating correctly (in particular a council owned event) i think you will find that the cost is in the region of 150 quid per event on top of hire fees. Now how many do actualy pay this and would go to the wall if they did.

N B

cheers,

mirja

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Posted

hey thank you for your reply.

well at present, all money paid to any institution collecting money for artists, writers or anybody else involved will only pay the money to the right people, if they can find them.

so instead of paying money to robby williams for playing frankie beverley, i'd like to find as many unlisted and unregistered records as possible.

this could lead to soul-events not being forced to pay to any institution and this would free more money for soul events.

even if we only take the ones we played most and concentrate on 100 mostplayed records per year.

still better than paying robby williams or the crazy frog.

;-)

if you have more detailed info,

please get back..

cheers,

m

It would never happen.

Firstly the authorities/institutions would tell you to go away, secondly all the venue promotors would tell you to do likewise Hah. even the so called big promotors.

and lets face it most of the artists not all but most got a raw deal to start with and never received a dime or all of their just rewards..

Ok so heres what you could do ...

form a little performing/artists rights collection syndicate that would distribute any monies, go round all the Big and little venues and ask them to join and stump up the brass after each night. COUGH ... i bet they would .

NB

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Guest mirja m profile photo
Posted

well that all brings me back to my first question.

do you have names and titels of unlisted records?

if so, it would be a big help for me to al least try to fight the big ones.

i will definately keep you informed about my progress.

;-)

so please, send me lists of ulisted records....

;-)

thanks a lot for your support and i will try to do my very best to give the artists a little of what they deserve...

kindest regards,

mirja

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Posted

Mirja

Don't mean to offend, but what you're suggesting is nuts.

Venues pay a PRS/PPL licence fee for the venue. You can't get around that, even if you could prove that the songs were unlisted.

I can't imagine there are more than a handful of soul records that are unpublished in the sense you mean. They may not be registered with ASCAP etc, but somebody somwhere is certain to hold the publishing rights.

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Guest Paul profile photo
Posted

You won't be able to get around PRS or PPL (and soon MCPS with their proposed DJ license). It's a bit like trying to tell the TV licensing authorities that you haven't got a license because you don't watch BBC channels very often.

The licenses are for blanket use because most people don't (or won't) submit accurate logs of music played. And to calculate the exact royalty shares would cost far more than the total amounts collected.

It's far from being a fair a perfect system but what's the alternative? Music isn't free.

Paul Mooney

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Posted

and as for listing all the records , i can just see the big djs telling mr man in a suit from the performing rights department the real identity of their 20 year old cover up that packs the dance floor and only they know the real artist just so some old bloke can recieve 3 and a half pence in royalties owd to him from 1987

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Posted

Here's some reading on what UK collection agencies do. BMI and ASCAP do not operate within the UK. They will have agreements with UK collection agencies or the song's/recording's owner will have a UK counterpart.

http://www.bemuso.com/musicbiz/collectionsocieties.html

musicbiz.gif

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Guest Timothy profile photo
Posted

well that all brings me back to my first question.

do you have names and titels of unlisted records?

if so, it would be a big help for me to al least try to FIND the big ones.

kindest regards,

mirja

hi mirja,

why not do what every other collector of rare soul records does, spend years looking for them. I think this is what you are really about. i may be wrong, but i don't think so.

nice try :thumbsup:

best regards

Timothy

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Posted

A list of unregistered recordings could be a bootleggers dream if it got into the wrong hands couldn't it?

Or is that just the old cynic in me rising again :thumbsup:

Godz

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Posted

CD release without paying license fees perhaps?

Or am I just an old cynic?

Phil

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Guest mirja m profile photo
Posted

hi mirja,

why not do what every other collector of rare soul records does, spend years looking for them. I think this is what you are really about. i may be wrong, but i don't think so.

nice try :thumbsup:

best regards

Timothy

hey,

i am a promoter, not a dj or collector, i do not care if a record is listed or not, as long as it sounds good and makes people dance.

just the unfairness in this business (ascap etc.) makes me angry. there must be a way of getting nolan porter some money for playing "only be sure".

and i am stil lsure there is a way. even if i have not found it by now. paying money for an artist, writer etc. who will never get any of the money we pay, just does not sound fair.

well and if a bootlegger wants to earn money on a list of unregistered records then i feel sorry just for someone thinking that way.

regards,

m

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Posted

You won't be able to get around PRS or PPL (and soon MCPS with their proposed DJ license). It's a bit like trying to tell the TV licensing authorities that you haven't got a license because you don't watch BBC channels very often.

The licenses are for blanket use because most people don't (or won't) submit accurate logs of music played. And to calculate the exact royalty shares would cost far more than the total amounts collected.

It's far from being a fair a perfect system but what's the alternative? Music isn't free.

Paul Mooney

/quote]

Speaking from inside the industry (MCPS/PRS), we issue blanket licences as the venues can use any music that falls our control, therefore giving venue owners the opportunity to have diversity in the club nights they promote. It's completely uneconomic to collect a licence and distribute to each composer and publisher because of the low sums involved for each establishment, remember we issue licences from your local hairdresser to the Royal Albert Hall. Just imagine trying to collect paylists of what was played in your local hairdresser for 365 days, you get the general idea...

As far as what songs are controlled I'd imagine the % we don't is pretty small.

TTM

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Posted

hey,

i am a promoter, not a dj or collector, i do not care if a record is listed or not, as long as it sounds good and makes people dance.

just the unfairness in this business (ascap etc.) makes me angry. there must be a way of getting nolan porter some money for playing "only be sure".

and i am stil lsure there is a way. even if i have not found it by now. paying money for an artist, writer etc. who will never get any of the money we pay, just does not sound fair.

well and if a bootlegger wants to earn money on a list of unregistered records then i feel sorry just for someone thinking that way.

regards,

m

Didnt joy division get there break through Searlings help +£500 Studio time using the backing track of NP?Forgot what JDivs Title of there release was?

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Guest Paul profile photo
Posted

... there must be a way of getting nolan porter some money for playing "only be sure".

and i am stil lsure there is a way. even if i have not found it by now...

As it happens, we are the publishers of "If I Could Only Be Sure" in EU territrories and I'm pleased to say that Nolan Porter gets paid his share of mechanical and broadcasting royalties for that song. That songs is very successful and also earns income from digital downloads (napster, itunes, etc) - particularly from Paul Weller's version. The only income that can't be controlled is public performance from clubs, but that's because of the (necessary) blanket licenses. If the actual calculations could be made, many songs would earn less than a penny per year.

If you're really concerned about writers getting their royalties, you should encourage radio DJs to log their playlists and submit them to PRS. As for public performances in clubs, at least pay your PRS and PPL licenses. The system isn't perfect but it's the only system there is at the moment. ASCAP and BMI, by the way, don't directly figure in this as far as the UK and Europe is concerned.

Paul Mooney

Millbrand Copyright Management Ltd.

www.millbrand.com

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Posted

As it happens, we are the publishers of "If I Could Only Be Sure" in EU territrories and I'm pleased to say that Nolan Porter gets paid his share of mechanical and broadcasting royalties for that song. That songs is very successful and also earns income from digital downloads (napster, itunes, etc) - particularly from Paul Weller's version. The only income that can't be controlled is public performance from clubs, but that's because of the (necessary) blanket licenses. If the actual calculations could be made, many songs would earn less than a penny per year.

If you're really concerned about writers getting their royalties, you should encourage radio DJs to log their playlists and submit them to PRS. As for public performances in clubs, at least pay your PRS and PPL licenses. The system isn't perfect but it's the only system there is at the moment. ASCAP and BMI, by the way, don't directly figure in this as far as the UK and Europe is concerned.

Paul Mooney

Millbrand Copyright Management Ltd.

www.millbrand.com

Hi paul ,Didnt know Paul Weller had done that was it an exact cover or did he just use the backing riff?

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Guest Paul profile photo
Posted

Hi paul ,Didnt know Paul Weller had done that was it an exact cover or did he just use the backing riff?

Yes, it was the first track on Paul Weller's last album, Studio 150 (V2), and he cut it in a very similar style to Nolan's version.

More information: www.millbrand.com/nolan.htm

Paul Mooney

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Yes, it was the first track on Paul Weller's last album, Studio 150 (V2), and he cut it in a very similar style to Nolan's version.

More information: www.millbrand.com/nolan.htm

Paul Mooney

Cheers for that Paul!

Paul as your the man in the know! How many artists to your Knowledge have used "Only be sure" either in part or whole ? I now know of 2 but i suspect there are more.Could you give us any sort of indication?

Sorry to the original thread poster if this is slightly off track but ime just curious.

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Guest Paul profile photo
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Cheers for that Paul!

Paul as your the man in the know! How many artists to your Knowledge have used "Only be sure" either in part or whole ? I now know of 2 but i suspect there are more.Could you give us any sort of indication?

Sorry to the original thread poster if this is slightly off track but ime just curious.

I only know of versions by Steppenwolf, Nolan Porter, Steve Ellis Love Affair and Paul Weller. By the way, the guitar line on Nolan's version was played by Johnny 'Guitar' Watson.

Paul Mooney

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I only know of versions by Steppenwolf, Nolan Porter, Steve Ellis Love Affair and Paul Weller. By the way, the guitar line on Nolan's version was played by Johnny 'Guitar' Watson.

Paul Mooney

J G Watson sounds about right Paul but Steppenwolf!!!! Amazing

Now this is another hypothetical question suppose i recorded a version of a track owned by you

I would imagine firstly ide need to seek your approval and permissions to issue then-

What sort of costs are involved and how does it work?

Again sorry to the original thread poster just curious

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Guest Paul profile photo
Posted

J G Watson sounds about right Paul but Steppenwolf!!!! Amazing

Now this is another hypothetical question suppose i recorded a version of a track owned by you

I would imagine firstly ide need to seek your approval and permissions to issue then-

What sort of costs are involved and how does it work?

Again sorry to the original thread poster just curious

You would need to obtain a license from MCPS who act on our behalf and you'd have to pay mechanical royalties at the statutory rate - typically 8.5% of the dealer price (sometimes charged at 6.5% of the net retail price) and usually payable in advance on the number of copies manufactured, not copies sold. The royalties are then divided by the total number of songs on your record or CD (they also make adjustments for the different durations of individual tracks) and paid to the individual publishers. So, if it was a 7" single, the publisher of the song on the 'B' side would earn just as much as the publisher of the song on 'A' side.

Paul Mooney

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You would need to obtain a license from MCPS who act on our behalf and you'd have to pay mechanical royalties at the statutory rate - typically 8.5% of the dealer price (sometimes charged at 6.5% of the net retail price) and usually payable in advance on the number of copies manufactured, not copies sold. The royalties are then divided by the total number of songs on your record or CD (they also make adjustments for the different durations of individual tracks) and paid to the individual publishers. So, if it was a 7" single, the publisher of the song on the 'B' side would earn just as much as the publisher of the song on 'A' side.

Paul Mooney

I think ive got this? The net price being the charge over the retail counter of the single?

So eg- 1000 pressed @ £1.00 per copy @ 8.5% £85 payabel at time of pressing per track used of each

publisher?

I should imagine it only curteous and good manner to seek permissions to use part or whole songs first but do you find many trying to flaunt this illegaly.Especially in this era of sampling with ease that this causes big problems for writers and artists to receive there dues correctly.

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Guest Paul profile photo
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I think ive got this? The net price being the charge over the retail counter of the single?

So eg- 1000 pressed @ £1.00 per copy @ 8.5% £85 payabel at time of pressing per track used of each

publisher?

I should imagine it only curteous and good manner to seek permissions to use part or whole songs first but do you find many trying to flaunt this illegaly.Especially in this era of sampling with ease that this causes big problems for writers and artists to receive there dues correctly.

Yes you also need permission, especially if it's an unpublished song, but many try to get around it using obscure samples they think won't be noticed. The lawyers end up sorting it out later.

Paul Mooney

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Yes you also need permission, especially if it's an unpublished song, but many try to get around it using obscure samples they think won't be noticed. The lawyers end up sorting it out later.

Paul Mooney

And rightly so Paul,

Thanks for your Advice i may be getting in touch again in the future! especially as the writer on the b is up for an = share. Cheers :unsure:thumbsup.gif

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I only know of versions by Steppenwolf, Nolan Porter, Steve Ellis Love Affair and Paul Weller. By the way, the guitar line on Nolan's version was played by Johnny 'Guitar' Watson.

Paul Mooney

I thought it was Little Feat in their session days who supplied the backing and I had presumed Lowell George played the lick.

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I thought it was Little Feat in their session days who supplied the backing and I had presumed Lowell George played the lick.

thats what i heard

Shane

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Mmm thats intresting Frank.Anybody?

Back to the Joy Division that was N F Porters keep on keeping on! not that ime into JDiv or anything like that but it was Richard that gave them the break.

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The riff from "Keep On Keeping On" was used on "Interzone" by Joy Division in 1978. It may have been copied rather than sampled. It's classed as "interpolation" and no credit was given to the writer of "Keep On Keeping On".

The Jam did something similar with "Trans Golbal Express" which copies the rhythm pattern from "So Is The Sun" which is another song we own.

Regarding "If I Could Only Be Sure", Nolan told me that Johnny 'Guitar' Watson played guitar and Gabriel Mekler played the organ.

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

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