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kevinsoulman

Cadet Label Variation

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Those are just different pressing plants.  That lighter one seems to be Monarch in L.A. The darker one could perhaps be RCA Midwest (Indianapolis)?  The difference in colour of that label design is CERTAINLY not a product of different eras in label design.  It's just caused by different pressing plants' printers using different colour for their label paper.  Monarch seems to have used a lighter tint on most of their blue cadet runs.  Differentiating the pressing plants is easiest to do in lieu of looking at the pressing codes, by looking at the printing fonts.

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I looked through my Cadets, and have seen both lighter and darker on records from all 3 major regional pressing plants over time.  Also, large companies, like Chess, ordered their blank labels and shipped them to the pressing plants or the printers, themselves. So, the colour would just depend upon which batch of blank labels was sent by Chess to which location.

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If you've ever worked with large scale offset printers, you'll notice the colours will vary as you go through a job as ink saturation will change the shade throughout the printing process. There also may be variations if you have too much blue or not enough yellow or whatever. The only way to avoid this is with gravure printing but that's way too expensive for something like record labels.

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"........If you've ever worked with large scale offset printers, you'll notice the colours will vary as you go through a job as ink saturation will change the shade throughout the printing process. There also may be variations if you have too much blue or not enough yellow or whatever. The only way to avoid this is with gravure printing but that's way too expensive for something like record labels....."

 

 

Got to disagree.....as a member of the beleaguered print trade i would counter that it is possible to ensure colour consistancy throughout a print run.

This involves calibration, process controls and monitoring.....probably beyond the reach of most US print plants in the 60s, but definitely within the scope of a good contemporary UK printer...if you are experiencing colour variation within a run then address it by using a better printer.....and no this is not a plug for work

:) 

I am currently working solely within the flexo arena for packaging....but I am sure I could give a recommendation for a decent litho printer if you need one.

Regards

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Well, his varying colour quality point DID apply to US 1960s offset printers.  And that is more or less borne out in the evidence of varying colour even in the same record pressed in the same plant around the same time.  From my memory printers for the large labels had several 1000 blank labels on hand at all times (reason for old label designs being used long after new designs were being used in other plants).  So, they probably had enough shipped from the record company at a given time, to possibly have colour variation from the beginning to the end of that given batch.  If NOT, the colour could certainly vary from batch to batch sent by the record company, as the company, itself, would have orded them from their local  printer in much larger batch quantities than the size of the amounts sent to printers used by the individual regional pressing plants.

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"........If you've ever worked with large scale offset printers, you'll notice the colours will vary as you go through a job as ink saturation will change the shade throughout the printing process. There also may be variations if you have too much blue or not enough yellow or whatever. The only way to avoid this is with gravure printing but that's way too expensive for something like record labels....."

 

 

Got to disagree.....as a member of the beleaguered print trade i would counter that it is possible to ensure colour consistancy throughout a print run.

This involves calibration, process controls and monitoring.....probably beyond the reach of most US print plants in the 60s, but definitely within the scope of a good contemporary UK printer...if you are experiencing colour variation within a run then address it by using a better printer.....and no this is not a plug for work

:) 

I am currently working solely within the flexo arena for packaging....but I am sure I could give a recommendation for a decent litho printer if you need one.

Regards

 

Last time I operated a Heidelberg was 1994, so I have to bow to your professional knowledge or more likely I didn't know what I was doing.

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Well, it looks like I should not be mixing work and pleasure    :) 

 

Before anyone else decides to mis-interpret my post...........

The label variations are mostly due to print differences....

 

 

 

"...Well, his varying colour quality point DID apply to US 1960s offset printers..."

Agreed.

Please re-read my post.

 

 

 

".....Last time I operated a Heidelberg was 1994, so I have to bow to your professional knowledge or more likely I didn't know what I was doing....."

Not sure about the tetchy answer...apologies if you have taken my comments to read you are incorrect.......I have not slighted your professional knowledge. The ability to analyse, re-produce and maintain colour accuracy has moved markedly in the last 20 years.

 

 

"‹Again you are correct in that colour variation can be great within even small runs....for too many reasons to discuss in this forum.

 

 

For the market sector we are concerned with, (paper record labels) the QC applied will have been negligible.

"‹In the time period concerned the technology was still developing. Both flexography and litho-offest were in the ascendancy over letterpress.

Measurement and application of uniform values was down to "human eye" not spectral or densitromic.

For the reasons stated by Robb the variations could be great.

 

For the record (no pun...) whether it's geeky or not, poor quality print really p@sses me off.

Without been too "precious" print is still an art.

It is difficult to maintain colour accuracy and consistency throughout a print run.

It is however possible...which was my initial observation......

 

..........anyway I must get back to measuring my delta e values.............. :) (in-joke)

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For the record (no pun...) whether it's geeky or not, poor quality print really p@sses me off.

Without been too "precious" print is still an art.

 

 

 

Would you say Labels like Boogaloo and Spectrum , the maroon ones, would

be more likely to "setoff" which is why so many of their releases have what looks

like ring wear, but all over the label.

 

For the uninitiated "setoff" occurs when one printed sheet sticks to the one above it

and causes the print to peel off.

Edited by Kegsy

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Well, it looks like I should not be mixing work and pleasure    :) 

 

Before anyone else decides to mis-interpret my post...........

The label variations are mostly due to print differences....

 

 

 

"...Well, his varying colour quality point DID apply to US 1960s offset printers..."

Agreed.

Please re-read my post.

 

 

 

".....Last time I operated a Heidelberg was 1994, so I have to bow to your professional knowledge or more likely I didn't know what I was doing....."

Not sure about the tetchy answer...apologies if you have taken my comments to read you are incorrect.......I have not slighted your professional knowledge. The ability to analyse, re-produce and maintain colour accuracy has moved markedly in the last 20 years.

 

 

"‹Again you are correct in that colour variation can be great within even small runs....for too many reasons to discuss in this forum.

 

 

For the market sector we are concerned with, (paper record labels) the QC applied will have been negligible.

"‹In the time period concerned the technology was still developing. Both flexography and litho-offest were in the ascendancy over letterpress.

Measurement and application of uniform values was down to "human eye" not spectral or densitromic.

For the reasons stated by Robb the variations could be great.

 

For the record (no pun...) whether it's geeky or not, poor quality print really p@sses me off.

Without been too "precious" print is still an art.

It is difficult to maintain colour accuracy and consistency throughout a print run.

It is however possible...which was my initial observation......

 

..........anyway I must get back to measuring my delta e values.............. :) (in-joke)

 

Wasn't being tetchy, well maybe I was (Mondays)! Yes, the technology for ensuring consistency in printing has improved a lot in 20 years, never mind since the 60s. Makes me wonder if some label owners were more diligent about the quality of their product than others. You can't imagine a control freak like Berry Gordy allowing his labels to be badly made after all the thought he put into his products. I mean how many record companies actually had meetings to decide if something was worthy of release or not?

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Kegsy

Are you talking about the maroon with silver lettering?

Would not surprise me, but need to look to confirm.....

I would have thought that the majority of paper labels would be from pre-printed blank stocks to be overprinted with issue details at a later date.

Are you thinking its the base colour (maroon) or the overprint that's at fault?

 

 

ElGeePee

no problem....

Some guys were more interested in just having a record out.......I think Berry Gordy was in at the beginning of real marketing.......you know the premise of brand identity and control of ownership over all aspects relating to the sale and use of that brand id.

Smart cookie.......

 

 

 

 

The end of the market that the 60's r&b collector is looking at with small indie releases was in many cases a do it cheap as possible....spelling mistakes or colour variations would have been of little consequence to many.

 

The larger labels were also capable of poor QC.

I have a Pirates on Miracle that's  had the overprinting doubled.......mint copy but the label is a mess...

I have a couple of Revilot issues that have 2 labels on 1 side....factory cover-up?

That's before you start to look at mis-pressings...........but you can't blame the poor printer for those :)

 

In this homogenous world, I guess that may be part of the charm of collecting what are now relics of a by-gone age?

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Kegsy

Are you talking about the maroon with silver lettering?

Would not surprise me, but need to look to confirm.....

I would have thought that the majority of paper labels would be from pre-printed blank stocks to be overprinted with issue details at a later date.

Are you thinking its the base colour (maroon) or the overprint that's at fault?

 

 

.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

The base colour.

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The base colour.

Do you not think it could have been the Silver ink as it was metalised and I would have thought a bugger to dry at speed ?? only a thought

 

Cheers

 

John Bull :thumbsup:

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is it a west coat release, the blue one?

 

Malcolm

I don't think so.  Surely, I would have seen it in L.A. or San Francisco.  I didn't see it in The Midwest.  Maybe it only was distributed in The South on one isolated press run?

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