In 1958 we had 'For your Precious Love" - Jerry Butler & the Impressions. In 1961 Maxine Brown did "All in my mind". Are there any earlier Soul records than these?

Edited November 2, 200420 yr by Billy Freemantle

Try THE TURKS (HOLLYWOOD FLAMES) - EMILY which was recorded on 4th september 1954 - You can see where group soul sounds like the Impressions, Temptations etc came from. But this is a debate that can go on and on just like what was the first R&R record, and then you start in the 40's and not the 50's.

This is just a theory but I think the roots of Soul may go back a lot further than we think.

And sometimes the roots of Northern, as opposed to Deep Soul, can be found in the novelty poppy good-time 'blues' race records that were recorded side-by-side with the angst drenched Blues of the 20s and onwards.

On a CD of 1920s Cinncinati Blues that I've got somewhere there is a novelty and risque recording called 'THree Old Maids in a Folding Bed' by a guy recording as Sophisticated Jimmy La Rue that appears to have a tune identical to Bill Kennedy's "If I was a Kid."

I would also say Sam Cooke & Ray Charles did some early soul records.. "you send me" one of the first?

best

Leo

Damn I answered this in the previous topic but I might as well post it again, please try and hear it, it's great

A track I mentioned last week - Baby washington "You could never be mine" (Neptune) this is from 1958 and is superb, I've been plugging it for about 5 years and it would go down great at a venue except it has a messy jazz break right in the middle.

Jo Ann Garrett 'A Whole New Plan' Chess was done in 58 or 59, not the earliest I know, but pre-dates the 60's.

Nearly 50 years old and still sounds wonderful today!

Hmm 'I've decided on a whole new plan.......' Just love it...

Jamie

No it wasn't, how did you come to that conclusion? It's from 65 or 66!

"Two Loves have I". Must be a contender, the B.side is " Shake rattle & roll "

Excellent Beat ballad though....

Also Berry Gordy's Anna & Melody labels also date from the late 50's...

For me Lamont Dozier " Dearest One " the pick of the bunch there. Think some of the Matador's tracks are very old also.

John

The earliest records to be played on the scene, as far as I know are:

CHARLES SHEFFIELD: It's Your Voodoo Working (1961)

RICHARD BERRY: Have Love Will Travel (1959)

VARETTA DILLARD: That's Why I Cry (1958)

LILLIAN OFFITT: Miss You So (1957)

Here's a link to the "Pre-1964 Soul" thread I posted in April:

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1077

Gene

No it wasn't, how did you come to that conclusion?  It's from 65 or 66!

link

Sure I'd read somewhere it was, I'm sure I remember reading a Chess discography. Doesn't it also have the date on the old-style Chess label??

No doubt my find is fuddled and I've got my wires crossed, as is the usual case

Jamie

Sorry jamie, but the delta matrix of "A Whole New Plan/Stay By My Side" positively dates it to early 1966.

Hope this helps.

Gene

No mate it's on black Chess and also on that weird orangey one - if it was 58 it would be blue/silver I think

"Two Loves have I". Must be a contender, the B.side is " Shake rattle & roll "

Actually, "Two Loves Have I" was a 1970 release - quite late for Joe Turner, considering the best of his stuff came from the early '50s!

Speaking of which, I have a great bluesy 78 of his on US Columbia; an excellent version of "Roll 'Em Pete" from 1939, which I think Long John Baldry covered in the 60s.

Gene

Edited November 3, 200420 yr by Gene-R

"Two Loves have I". Must be a contender, the B.side is " Shake rattle & roll "

Big Joe Turner's 45s on the Bluesway label were released in 1968/1969.

An early tune that definitely should be sorted in the soul category is "My Tears" by Andre Williams from 1956 (or is it 1957?). It's the flip to "Jail Bait".

Cheers fella's!

God knows what I've got mixed up with then!

I think I'll go and have a little snooze and see if I can remember what it was

Jamie

Damn I answered this in the previous topic but I might as well post it again, please try and hear it, it's great

A track I mentioned last week - Baby washington "You could never be mine" (Neptune) this is from 1958 and is superb, I've been plugging it for about 5 years and it would go down great at a venue except it has a messy jazz break right in the middle.

link

I've managed to get hold of a recording of 'You never could be mine'. As you say. it is a superb record. I reckon it is the phrasing that makes it a Soul record. I like all of it including the jazzy bits. Those changes of pace really give it interest as a record to listen to. Other Baby Washington tunes I like are 'The Time', ' I can't wait to see my bab Incidentally, I agree with you on BW's version of 'It'll never be over for me. ' It's pale in comparison to Timi Youro's.

I've managed to get hold of a recording of 'You never could be mine'. As you say. it is a superb record. I reckon it is the phrasing that makes it a Soul record.  I like all of it including the jazzy bits. Those changes of pace really give it interest as a record to listen to. Other Baby Washington tunes I like are 'The Time', ' I can't wait to see my bab Incidentally, I agree with you on BW's version of 'It'll  never be over for me. ' It's pale in comparison to Timi Youro's.

link

Billy, The Time is the a side of the above record!

What I like about it is the repetitive riff that runs all the way through.

'Soul' is a more politically charged and/or gospel-orientated term for what most American Black folk of that time would term 'R'n'B' and it really only applies from the mid-60s onwards. Tracks like Charles Sheffield, Richard Berry, etc are certainly not soul records in the strictest sense. The earliest soul records are all, of course, gospel tracks. Soul Stirrers, Swan Silvertones, etc. It's only when Ray Charles started mixing gospel with blues that what most people would recognise as soul music today started.

Jo Ann Garrett 'A Whole New Plan' Chess was done in 58 or 59, not the earliest I know, but pre-dates the 60's.

Nearly 50 years old and still sounds wonderful today!

Hmm    'I've decided on a whole new plan.......'     Just love it...

Jamie

link

Correction.....it came out in 1967!

'Soul' is a more politically charged and/or gospel-orientated term for what most American Black folk of that time would term 'R'n'B' and it really only applies from the mid-60s onwards. Tracks like Charles Sheffield, Richard Berry, etc are certainly not soul records in the strictest sense. The earliest soul records are all, of course, gospel tracks. Soul Stirrers, Swan Silvertones, etc. It's only when Ray Charles started mixing gospel with blues that what most people would recognise as soul music today started.

link

This was kind of what i meant aswell sooo... seconded!

best

Leo

Billy, The Time is the a side of the above record!

What I like about it is the repetitive riff that runs all the way through.

link

You probably know this already, but a Baby Washington discography available at

https://koti.mbnet.fi/wdd/babywashington.htm

has 'You could never be mine' as both the B side to 'The Time' ( Neptune 101 1959) and and to 'That's how heartaches are made' ( Sue 783 1958).

BTW I'm still playing 'You could never be mine' What a catchy record!

Surely 'Heartaches' was later than 58????

'Soul' is a more politically charged and/or gospel-orientated term for what most American Black folk of that time would term 'R'n'B' and it really only applies from the mid-60s onwards. Tracks like Charles Sheffield, Richard Berry, etc are certainly not soul records in the strictest sense. The earliest soul records are all, of course, gospel tracks. Soul Stirrers, Swan Silvertones, etc. It's only when Ray Charles started mixing gospel with blues that what most people would recognise as soul music today started.

link

I think we have learned that the mainstream view that Brother Ray started it all is not really true and some of the conributions on this thread show that.

Gospel is only one strand of black music. Side-by side with Gospel were the black very secular pop blues records that often had arrangements that broke from the classic blues. Memorories of these also found their way into what eventually became known as Soul.

Surely 'Heartaches' was later than 58????

link

I agree. It certainly sounds later to me.

Surely 'Heartaches' was later than 58????

It's from 1963. And although I don't have the 45 right here, I'm pretty sure that "There He Is" is on the flip on my Sue copy of "Heartaches".

I started out listening to black music from my dad's Paul Robeson 78s. Some of the ballads are very soulful rather than blues but really you'd just call him a great black singer. Much of his stuff is in an operatic style. A real balck hero as well, hounded out of America by McCarthyism and made welcome in the UK (Wales in particular), Paris and Russia.

I started out listening to black music from my dad's Paul Robeson 78s. Some of the ballads are very soulful rather than blues but really you'd just call him a great black singer. Much of his stuff is in an operatic style. A real balck hero as well, hounded out of America by McCarthyism and made welcome in the UK (Wales in particular), Paris and Russia.

link

Even my 16 year old grungy son who hates soul as such loves Paul Robeson

I started out listening to black music from my dad's Paul Robeson 78s. Some of the ballads are very soulful rather than blues but really you'd just call him a great black singer. Much of his stuff is in an operatic style. A real balck hero as well, hounded out of America by McCarthyism and made welcome in the UK (Wales in particular), Paris and Russia.

link

Paul Robeson's record "There's a man going round taking names" has to qualify as a Deep Soul record. This was used really effectively in a movie called The Book of Daniel which was about the McCarthy purges in the States.

I remember reading somewhere about "Wade in the water" coming from an old slave song.. can't remeber all the facts but have been looking on the internet and found this website.. The first link is about Wade in the water the second is about the history of Soul.. Now i'm not going to quote any of it but it's there to read and intresting as well.. But reason i've looked in to this is, if Wade in the water comes from an old slave song that must make it in the line up as one of the oldest soul songs!!!!

https://www.localdial.com/users/jsyedu133/S...pages/coded.htm

https://www.localdial.com/users/jsyedu133/S...gpages/the5.htm

I think we have learned that the mainstream view that Brother Ray started it all is not really true and some of the conributions on this thread show that.

Gospel is only one strand of black music. Side-by side with Gospel were the black very secular pop blues records that often had arrangements that broke from the classic blues. Memorories of these also found their way into what eventually became known as Soul.

link

If you read what I wrote properly then you'll note that it says 'what most people would recognise as soul music' in regard to Ray Charles's pivotal role in American popular music. It's not the case that Ray Charles 'started it all' or invented soul music but he was the first secular performer to incorporate gospel styles - and still be a huge commericial success, even outside the Black American community. You know it's impossible not to mention his name in any discussion of soul music history, so why put him down like that?

Correction.....it came out in 1967!

link

Thanks Kev,

Shot down in flames 3 times!

Still trying to think what I got mixed up with - It's doin' my head in!!

Jamie

Thinking about it, it's a good job I didn't post it up in 'Tracks Ahead Of Their Time' or I'd have looked a double wally

Anyhow, I don't believe you 3, I'm gonna check tonight on my 10" 78rpm Bakerlite Gramophone copy at home

Edited November 3, 200420 yr by Jamie

If you read what I wrote properly then you'll note that it says 'what most people would recognise as soul music' in regard to Ray Charles's pivotal role in American popular music. It's not the case that Ray Charles 'started it all' or invented soul music but he was the first secular performer to incorporate gospel styles - and still be a huge commericial success, even outside the Black American community. You know it's impossible not to mention his name in any discussion of soul music history, so why put him down like that?

link

Very definitely not putting the great ray Charles down. Only the notion - and if you didn't mean that sorry for my misreading - that Soul grew ONLY out of Gospel. Some styles certainly did. Others did not.

jackie wilson - i'll be satisfied is from about 58 i think and i'd have no hesitation in playing when i get the chance

Davie

No mate it's on black Chess and also on that weird orangey one - if it was 58 it would be blue/silver I think

link

Yes.

Marc

In 1958 we had 'For your Precious Love"  - Jerry Butler & the Impressions.  In 1961 Maxine Brown did "All in my mind". Are there any earlier  Soul records than these?

link

Jerry Butler and the Impressions "For your precious love" is the earliest recognised soul record however i believe Nina Simone (if you class as soul) released earlier records.

Recall reading somewhere that some musicologists regard the Drifters "There goes my baby" as being the seminal soul record; if memory serves because of the string arrangement. 1959.