Over ten years ago, a few groundbreaking djs who didnt need telling what was good were playing, amongst other things, the great r&b 45 'where's my money' by willie jones.

I used to travel every month, then every week, to hear such tunes, and as it was the only way to hear them.

so did a lot of people, to r&b clubs like the hideaway, not that there were many clubs like that, which meant that everyone who liked r&b was at the same place.

anyhow, searching for the 45 today on ebay you'll find 3, yes 3, different pressings - a lookalike, a cheap tat thing, and a trying to be trendy looking one, plus someone trying to sell a copy that looks like it's been dug up for $300.

it seems that whatever beautiful things humans produce, others in time conspire to debase, exploit and cheapen.

Who does all this crap sell to, what is the point of it and what good comes of it?

And It seems like this is a microcosm of our culture ; masses of superfluous crap dressed up as choice.

This isnt progress, it isn't even retrogress. It's degeneration.

willie jones deserves to be heard alright, it's just that people dont deserve to hear it.

Edited August 20, 201410 yr by pow wow mik

I feel depressed now!

It's not just the lookalikes. I have had so much trouble on eBay, what with customs charges, records that were cracked, records with cue burn and then buying an eighties boot with a scanned label stuck on purporting to be an original and last but not least, over graded records.

 

It kind of explains why people are willing to pay through the nose from JM's auction. It may be expensive, but it's hassle free.

 

I'm thinking of packing in eBay all together.

 

I think as these records get older and harder to find at source, the stuff that is coming onto the market is the dregs. Especially as rare vinyl is being seen more and more as an investment, minty 45's don't seem to come onto the market very often. They're in collections.

Don't search ebay then, and you won't be disappointed...I don't mean that sarcastically mate, but if you look, I mean really look and search, they are there....

Malcolm

If you are reliant on selling Northern as a business then for some it is doom & gloom,

record collecting as a hobby should be fun, why be down about it?

SO ABSOLUETLY SECONDED. IF ANYTHING THE BOOTLEGGERS KILLED THE WHOLE R&B SCENE. DISGUSTING.

A lot of people just collect records and not really bothered if it's an original or not. At the Spa r-n-b night in Derby  (not a plug ) we play loads of r-n-b ect all are originals except a few things that may have been on 78's but are not practical to play. Theres no answer to this apart from just getting on with your life really and let the rest of the world get on with it. let's face facts no one's going to spend money on having some records made if they're not going to sell are they ? so someones buying them . from a dealers point of view we have a dilemma , buying a collection or part collection will have some in , including the old style re issue like grapevines ect, I've had to buy some in collections in the last few months otherwise I don't get the others . We've been down this road so many times on soul source and nothing has changed has it really ?. Judy Street for instance , bootlegged on lookalike strider  years ago,then bootlegged on a red pressing type thing, then re issued on Grapevine , now released on the outtasite catalogue , don't think it will effect the sale of an original there's one finishing on ebay tomorrow it won't effect it's price because it's been booted , it's not changed the fact that it'll still fill the floor when played out. So yes it is a shame but it's gone on to long and there's just too many knocking around the world to do much about it . How much for a Professions ? it's been redone twice , don't hear it out very often still in a way underplayed. most of my mates on the scene collect boots/ re issues ect not many can afford a decent original, one mate from Nuneaton will buy maybe 4 or 5 boots a week to play at home , he doesn't DJ . No stopping what can't be stopped , but gives us a bit more enthusiasm to search out new plays and it's ironic that there's so much great cheep quality northern / r-n-b/ modern / seventy's / Latin / xover ect for around a tenner on original labels that are ignored . All the best .S.

Don't see how this is a new thing...back in the 70s you might have the original, the boot and the disco demand / grapevine

I think the lads who run the King Bee Club in Sheffield, amongst others, will be surprised to see that the R&B scene has been "killed"............. it's alive and well!

I wasn't saying that it's killed the r&b scene - it's impossible to say how better things might be if other things hadnt happened (although I can say that bootlegging has certainly killed certain tracks) or that it's ruined anyone's life.

it's just crap, pure and simple. I have no other point to make than that.

The whole re-issue vinyl market is up there with fake perfume market stalls, stone cladding and bootleg films done on camcorders.

just crap, cheap, pointless, exploitative product and as a wider culture - that is what we will be famous for - draining the world's resources to produce superfluous shite.

I cant think of a better example of it than reproducing a obsolete petrochemical product in an era when we've managed to store music in the ether.

I just dont get why people do it; producing, selling and buying - every stage of it is a crappy half arsed imitation of another thing; not exactly something to be proud of.

and after a few years of giving the benefit of doubt I feel that I can say with confidence that it's done about as much for music as mock tudor houses did for 16th century history.

I dont care if it affects the value of originals, I'm not a stockbroker.

I just get the impression that the two existing markets are now - culture vultures flogging it to death with re-issues (like someone said, somebody must be buying them) in order to look cool for a few months, or middle aged investors looking for a financially sound hobby.

it used to be about going out and dancing, now its about money, one way or another - people spending it or earning it.

thats the state of the record scene today.

dont make boots, dont sell boots, dont buy boots, support the hardcore underground, that's where the spirit of the music is maintained.

"The whole re-issue vinyl market is up there with fake perfume market stalls, stone cladding and bootleg films done on camcorders.
just crap, cheap, pointless, exploitative product and as a wider culture - that is what we will be famous for - draining the world's resources to produce superfluous shite."

Spot on mate,

In a lot of circles it perfectly acceptable to play something that you don't really fuckin have?.....These clowns have no real soul, DJ , collector core values ....if you dont have it or cant get it , get something else.....theres fucking millions of stuff out there that can be regurgitated , or simply records that dont get played....PUT A BIT OFF EFFORT IN YA KANTS!!!

You got burned at the stake in the 80s /90s if you got caught at that game.

The whole Mod / Northern  scene is built around young geezers  finding there own tunes, not playing boots of the un obtainable. 

I wasn't saying that it's killed the r&b scene - it's impossible to say how better things might be if other things hadnt happened (although I can say that bootlegging has certainly killed certain tracks) or that it's ruined anyone's life.

it's just crap, pure and simple. I have no other point to make than that.

The whole re-issue vinyl market is up there with fake perfume market stalls, stone cladding and bootleg films done on camcorders.

just crap, cheap, pointless, exploitative product and as a wider culture - that is what we will be famous for - draining the world's resources to produce superfluous shite.

I cant think of a better example of it than reproducing a obsolete petrochemical product in an era when we've managed to store music in the ether.

I just dont get why people do it; producing, selling and buying - every stage of it is a crappy half arsed imitation of another thing; not exactly something to be proud of.

and after a few years of giving the benefit of doubt I feel that I can say with confidence that it's done about as much for music as mock tudor houses did for 16th century history.

I dont care if it affects the value of originals, I'm not a stockbroker.

I just get the impression that the two existing markets are now - culture vultures flogging it to death with re-issues (like someone said, somebody must be buying them) in order to look cool for a few months, or middle aged investors looking for a financially sound hobby.

it used to be about going out and dancing, now its about money, one way or another - people spending it or earning it.

thats the state of the record scene today.

dont make boots, dont sell boots, dont buy boots, support the hardcore underground, that's where the spirit of the music is maintained.

Evening chap , well you've made some very good points especially regarding the use of petrochemical materials , this is something that I've thought about for a long time. how wasteful records are regarding the material they are made from , are newly made records a drain on decreasing resources well no not really as they have a long lifetime unlike say disposable pens or lighters or toys . Most things made today are from plastic and most such as packaging are a drain. I think it's true that it is still about going out dancing , and regarding money that's the evil that shapes us all in some shape or form . The re issue market does have some very professional organisations behind them , kent/ace are perhaps the best example of this , good quality manufacturing , great sleeves and the quality of their product represents tremendous value , I have them all and for what they cost and the age of the early ones they really are still good as new. All licenced and owners paid up properly so there is a need for a re issue market , but this type of business needs money to operate . Best regards Simon.

I think the lads who run the King Bee Club in Sheffield, amongst others, will be surprised to see that the R&B scene has been "killed"............. it's alive and well!

I dont want to start a whole ovo debate again, as the thread was as much about bandwagon jumpers overspending on originals as much as it was about bandwagon jumpers buying boots...

but mark forrest was able to offer an interesting insight on the impact of re-issues a while back on here, as he was able to watch the whole tradjectory of r&b in germany; and it was something like this:

People who love r&b buy r&b records and started r&b clubs, which became popular and trendy.

a flood of boots abd re-issues come out.

because r&b is trendy, a whole host of nights crop up, playing re-issues.

this divides the audience and over-familiarises the style of music.

Interest in the original nights deceases, as they lose their u.s.p.

all lesser nights give up as they weren't ever very committed, or good.

scene dead.

so there you go.

I go to king bee every month, but in the end, its 100 people in a pub in sheffield, what else is there?.

"The whole re-issue vinyl market is up there with fake perfume market stalls, stone cladding and bootleg films done on camcorders.

just crap, cheap, pointless, exploitative product and as a wider culture - that is what we will be famous for - draining the world's resources to produce superfluous shite."

Spot on mate,

In a lot of circles it perfectly acceptable to play something that you don't really fuckin have?.....These clowns have no real soul, DJ , collector core values ....if you dont have it or cant get it , get something else.....theres fucking millions of stuff out there that can be regurgitated , or simply records that dont get played....PUT A BIT OFF EFFORT IN YA KANTS!!!

You got burned at the stake in the 80s /90s if you got caught at that game.

The whole Mod / Northern  scene is built around young geezers  finding there own tunes, not playing boots of the un obtainable. 

Post mate. 

And just to re-cap and  re affirm..

I was at a soul do in Glasgow, maybe 3 years ago , Young Liam from Ireland was guesting..Smashing Young Guy,

During the usual record shit talk, (bearing in mind I'm 30 years in)  his words to me were along the the lines of , " we can never compete with you guys"...he went on to play two sets of tunes , dance floor filled of which I new very little!!!

Well Fuckin Sausage'd, I thought,

The scene will survive for a long while yet., with guys like this, young Calum, Mik...every fucker thats trying....every record has still to get its 15 minutes.........

Some for the bootleggers

Edited August 23, 201410 yr by Lenny Harkins

Don't see how this is a new thing...back in the 70s you might have the original, the boot and the disco demand / grapevine

Back in the 70s the music was being used to base a culture around.

back in the 70s, you didnt have itunes, youtube, cds etc etc.

dont want to be misconstrued here. I dont think ovo is an issue, any do worth going to has good djs on already.

my point is that there is demand for 3 different bootleg releases of one record, demand enough for the original for sellers to ask ridiculous prices, demand, I would expect, for the same record to achieve 500+ on a manship auction....

if there is all this demand, all this interest, then where is it from?

like everything else, exciting grass roots culture gets hijacked by the rich and boring.

it becomes an armchair activity for the comfortable.

When I first heard 'lets start a romance' (damien hewitt, 2003), it felt like the treasure at the end of a long quest, now there's 20 crappy boots sat unsold on ebay. Any money got to little joe hinton yet?

Might as well have gone and shat on his bed.

]

I think the lads who run the King Bee Club in Sheffield, amongst others, will be surprised to see that the R&B scene has been "killed"............. it's alive and well!

 

no comparison to how the "scene" was twelve years ago IMO. however, from a German  - Berlin in particular - point of view it became completely inflationary. 

Edited August 24, 201410 yr by Marc Forrest

're issue scene is the music industry equivalent of wanking off a bloke behind a pub for a tenner' 

 

sums it up for me

Personally, I spend several hours every evening searching for tunes ( mainly R&B ) that I havent heard before to try and purchase on original of course.
There are big money records I would love to own and hope to one day but I wont sell my granny for a record thats been hyped and over exploited or buy a boot to play.

There are still great records out there at realistic prices but over inflation does seem to be the norm these days

We always tried to play something a bit different at Soulful Shack and Down in the Basement with the emphasis on quality and will continue to do so rather than play any look alike or boot just to fill a dance floor, end of.
 

Edited August 24, 201410 yr by Guest

And just to re-cap and  re affirm..

I was at a soul do in Glasgow, maybe 3 years ago , Young Liam from Ireland was guesting..Smashing Young Guy,

During the usual record shit talk, (bearing in mind I'm 30 years in)  his words to me were along the the lines of , " we can never compete with you guys"...he went on to play two sets of tunes , dance floor filled of which I new very little!!!

Well Fuckin Sausage'd, I thought,

The scene will survive for a long while yet., with guys like this, young Calum, Mik...every fucker thats trying....every record has still to get its 15 minutes.........

Some for the bootleggers

very very nice Lenny

Anything that becomes popular/successful in today's world will be faked because today everybody wants everything now. Quality isn't an issue for most any more as they just want today's stuff today and throw yesterday's stuff away without a thought.

 

it what sets people apart from the everyday consumer scum - wearing certain shoes, clothes that are a bit special, a different sort of book, not voting lib dem, buying original records, looking for something different.

 

Sorry, i don't have a night to promote.

Edited August 25, 201410 yr by paultp