Hi all, I have just turned up a mixed bunch of 45's on Golden World (yellow issues) and a Ric Tic (w/demo) which have the ZTSC matrix number scratched in the run-out grooves rather than stamped in (as per my Red lable Ric Tic Edwin Starr "Stop her on sight", and my Yellow lable Golden World Holidays "Watch out" for example). Did Golden World and Ric Tic stamp some of their 45's and others scratched in the run-out grooves the ZTSC number? Can anyone shed any light as to what is going on here? Many thanks to all replies.

Hi all, I have just turned up a mixed bunch of 45's on Golden World (yellow issues) and a Ric Tic (w/demo) which have the ZTSC matrix number scratched in the run-out grooves rather than stamped in (as per my Red lable Ric Tic Edwin Starr "Stop her on sight", and my Yellow lable Golden World Holidays "Watch out" for example). Did Golden World and Ric Tic stamp some of their 45's and others scratched in the run-out grooves the ZTSC number? Can anyone shed any light as to what is going on here? Many thanks to all replies.

Columbia pressed their stuff for them, and there's no real rhyme or reason as tol whether they were stamped or just had the number etched in writing. Except most of the styrene ones were stamped. Beware though as some of the titles were booted with scratched in numbers.

Hi there,

Another question related. I have GW 18 with a slightly scratched ZSC 97604, and a stamped little Bell Sound. Any clues?

Cheers from Mexico

Dante

Hi there,

Another question related. I have GW 18 with a slightly scratched ZSC 97604, and a stamped little Bell Sound. Any clues?

Cheers from Mexico

Dante

Hi Dante

It certainly does, and a Scratched Matrix "ZTSC-97604-1E"

Interesting that this has the "Bell Sound" Stamp, as the others were pressed at Columbia.

Anyone know why, the change in pressing plants.

Edited May 24, 200717 yr by 45cellar

Interesting, indeed

Might sound a bit toooo geek, but I think mine has ZTSC 97604 -1A, not 1 E

Thanks roger, you're always there when we the newies need you hehe

Cheers

Anyone know why, the change in pressing plants.

Probably no other reason than the releases were done on a one by one basis early days....so they probably changed plants like we might change erm trousers

Interesting, indeed

Might sound a bit toooo geek, but I think mine has ZTSC 97604 -1A, not 1 E

Thanks roger, you're always there when we the newies need you hehe

Cheers

Hi Dante

No Problem, I have been trying to piece together the Mystery of the ZTSC Numbering System.

It's the various mix of 1A, 1B, 1C ,1D, 1E, 2A and so on.

I guess that they're batch numbers for the Master but can be many different variations for the same Title.

SOMETIMES IT MAY BE 1A on one side and 1D on another.

Get another copy of the same Title and It's 1A and 1B etc.

Probably no other reason than the releases were done on a one by one basis early days....so they probably changed plants like we might change erm trousers

Hi Steve

Yes, you are probably right there.

On the question of trousers, I remember when I used to buy 32" waist trousers,

I think that they must be making them wrong as I now have to buy 38" waist.

Edited May 24, 200717 yr by 45cellar

Hi Steve

Yes, you are probably right there.

On the question of trousers, I remember when I used to buy 32" waist trousers,

I think that they must be making them wrong as I now have to buy 38" waist.

Me too exactly the same

Right I have now been through all the Golden World records

Of all of them the only ones with "Bell Sound" are 17 and 18, all of the others were pressed at Columbia.....

I think 17 and 18 may well have been pressed at the same time....maybe Columbia had a backlog or something!

Steve

Me too exactly the same

me too!!!

Edited May 24, 200717 yr by ken

Hi Dante

No Problem, I have been trying to piece together the Mystery of the ZTSC Numbering System.

It's the various mix of 1A, 1B, 1C ,1D, 1E, 2A and so on.

I guess that they're batch numbers for the Master but can be many different variations for the same Title.

or the master being changed/replaced through wear or fault.

me too!!!

Or x2

Cheers Paco

Or x2

Cheers Paco

Thirty eight actualy,but i dont wear me kekcs up to me belly button. on topic bit!!i thought all the real ones had T1,T11or T111 scribbled in the run out.

Edited May 24, 200717 yr by ken

Hi Dante

It certainly does, and a Scratched Matrix "ZTSC-97604-1E"

Interesting that this has the "Bell Sound" Stamp, as the others were pressed at Columbia.

Anyone know why, the change in pressing plants.

and there are two GW-18's.One credits Rob Recco,the other credits Popcorn Wylie.

GW-18 and Myto Music writing is mirror imaged as well ,if you get my drift.

Bell sound stamped,scratched matrix-ZTSC 97604-1B,,,,

Edited May 25, 200717 yr by KevH

Right I have now been through all the Golden World records

Of all of them the only ones with "Bell Sound" are 17 and 18, all of the others were pressed at Columbia.....

I think 17 and 18 may well have been pressed at the same time....maybe Columbia had a backlog or something!

Steve

or the master being changed/replaced through wear or fault.

Thanks, Almost certain that you are right, I was thinking along similar lines.

Good to know that, Such a lot of Information has been lost over the years.

Thanks all for adding to this thread - all very intersting stuff!

Roger, maybe you should add the extra bits you kindly PM'd to me earlier with the links etc?

Ray

Roger, I will detail here what does the ZTSC stand for - credit you.

The code itself is broken down thus,

Z - indicates a 7" medium

T - transcription

S - indicates 45rpm

C - Chicago, where they were pressed

Thanks all for adding to this thread - all very intersting stuff!

Roger, maybe you should add the extra bits you kindly PM'd to me earlier with the links etc?

Ray

Hi Ray

No Problem.

Hi Ray

I wouldn't worry too much about Counterfeits of these labels, although they do exist.

It sounds so far like you have originals.

Almost all of my records came from Soul Bowl in the 70's, Including the ones I have given you the DeadWax Information on.

The GW-47 of yours, I would say is 100% OK as you describe it. I have two copies of this and Both are Scatched ZTSC.

The GW-46 - Heart Trouble - The Parliaments.

-------------STYRENE

Scratched "ZTSC-121124" with a "-P" STAMPED to the side of the ZTSC and the "2" or possibly "1" 180 degrees across the record, STAMPED in the DeadWax. You're right, it is hard to say whether it is a 1 or a 2.

Ric-Tic RT-111 - To Win Your Heart - Laura Lee

-------------STYRENE------------------------STYRENE

The White DEMO Scratched "ZTSC-107550" with "T1" Scratched 180 degrees across the record in the DeadWax.

The Stock Copy Scratched "ZTSC-107550" with a "-P" STAMPED to the side of the ZTSC and "1" Faintly STAMPED 180 degrees across the record in the DeadWax.

Remember also that slightly different labels exist on the Golden World Issues.

-------------STYRENE------------------------STYRENE------------------------STYRENE

The Position of the GW-21 and even the Font.

Some of the other titles are STAMPED and some are Scratched, I will try to list which I have that are Scratched and which are Stamped, possibly Friday/Saturday, as I Work Nights Sunday to Thursday and will be going to bed soon.

I was Intending to collate the Information to add to the Hitsville Site anyway.

Any further help, do not hesitate to contact me.

Hi Ray

I will answer all of your questions if I can.

The stamps are usually followed by a Number and Letter, as you can see below this can be different across the same Issue Number.

I have multiple copies of other Titles, I will have a Look tomorrow to see if I have any with a Stamp and another with a Scratched Matrix.

Of the top of my head I think I have a ZTSC Revilot with a Stamp on one side and a Scratched matrix on the other, so you can see it doesn't appear to follow any pattern, but I will let you know what I can find out about this, so Point 2 may take more time, I will get back to you.

------------STYRENE

- "ZTSC104215-2 C" STAMPED-/-THE OTHER SIDE--"ZTSC104216-1 C" STAMPED

- "ZTSC104215-2 B" STAMPED-/-THE OTHER SIDE--"ZTSC104216-1 B" STAMPED

--"ZTSC104215-2 A" STAMPED-/ THE OTHER SIDE--"ZTSC104216-1D" STAMPED

Point 1 >>> LINK <<<

The records were pressed by Columbia Records,

if you follow the Link there is lots of Information about Various Pressing Plants.

Including ZTSC

The code itself is broken down thus,

Z - indicates a 7" medium

T - transcription

S - indicates 45rpm

C - Chicago, where they were pressed

Point 3 Dave Moore has done some wonderful articles on Various Labels Including Golden World and Ric-Tic

>>> LINK <<<

The Work that I am doing is constantly being updated as I find Information.

With Some of the The Labels I have Included links to Sound files when you click on them.

It is on the Hitsville Forum. We have gathered together Information from Various sources to try to complete Both the Labels. I will shortly be adding the ZTSC Information.

Information for some of the Ric-Tic records is a bit hard to Obtain.

We are still searching for some of the DEMO's.

>>> LINK to My Ric-Tic Posts on Hitsville Soul Club Of America <<<

>>> LINK to My Mirwood Posts on Hitsville Soul Club Of America <<<

I will keep in touch and hopefully find out more Information on the Scratched vs Stamped Matrix.

Edited May 25, 200717 yr by 45cellar

Roger, I will detail here what does the ZTSC stand for - credit you.

The code itself is broken down thus,

Z - indicates a 7" medium

T - transcription

S - indicates 45rpm

C - Chicago, where they were pressed

Hi Ray

Thanks, but thanks to Dave Flynn's >>> Anoraks Corner <<<

I think that the following Revilot sums it up regarding the Scratched / Stamped Matrix for these releases.

The Pink Darrell Banks having both on the same record.

I have these in my collection. All are Styrene, All bought from Soul Bowl

--<-- Both Have STAMPED in Matrix A & B Side

--<-- Both Have Scratched in Matrix A & B Side

The Grey Label was the first Issue

However, This copy

--<-- STAMPED in Matrix A & Scratched in Matrix B Side

I hope that this helps

Edited May 25, 200717 yr by 45cellar

Hi Roger, thanks for all your time and effort with this thread - its all been very interesting. I will follow up on the links over the next few days also. Ray

Hi Dante

No Problem, I have been trying to piece together the Mystery of the ZTSC Numbering System.

It's the various mix of 1A, 1B, 1C ,1D, 1E, 2A and so on.

I guess that they're batch numbers for the Master but can be many different variations for the same Title.

SOMETIMES IT MAY BE 1A on one side and 1D on another.

Get another copy of the same Title and It's 1A and 1B etc.

I believe 1A, 1B, relates to the RUN

ie. 1A is the FIRST run 1B = SECOND run etc. I believe Columbia only used the stampers for a limited numbers of presses to keep the sound quality as "true" as possible.. IE if you check the Okeh 1970's reruns (small 45RPM) labels, the end letters range from D,E,F,G..

And before anyone asks OKEH 7226 was only issued with a small 45rpm text. If you check the deadwax matrix you'll see the matrix ends 1A, 1B, but maybe C, D,

It is could also enable a rough calculation of the smaller runs, if we knew how many 45s the stamper was used for before being replaced..

So stamper A was replaced with stamper B or C etc etc..

If anyone has any Definate info on this I would be glad to hear about it.

LETTERING 1A ,B ETC DONOTES RUNS AND STAMP CHANGES-AUDIO CONTROLS.

INTERESTING THING ABOUT IMPACT 31 AND 32 (ROD REVIERES AND NARBAY) BOTH COMPLETELY ODD, AND CANT REMEMBER WHY BUT S SOUSON DID EXPLAIN ONCE,

OR MAYBE THE MORROCAN MUZIK PERSONALITY USED HIS CONTACTS TO RE-INVENT SAID DISCS

IMACT 31 32 ARE IN EFFECT TOTAL CHICAGO PRODS/PRESSES/RELEASES???????

I believe 1A, 1B, relates to the RUN

ie. 1A is the FIRST run 1B = SECOND run etc. I believe Columbia only used the stampers for a limited numbers of presses to keep the sound quality as "true" as possible.. IE if you check the Okeh 1970's reruns (small 45RPM) labels, the end letters range from D,E,F,G..

And before anyone asks OKEH 7226 was only issued with a small 45rpm text. If you check the deadwax matrix you'll see the matrix ends 1A, 1B, but maybe C, D,

It is could also enable a rough calculation of the smaller runs, if we knew how many 45s the stamper was used for before being replaced..

So stamper A was replaced with stamper B or C etc etc..

If anyone has any Definate info on this I would be glad to hear about it.

 

Did this listing ever get completed?

its strange about the soul bowl links to scratched?

Roger, I will detail here what does the ZTSC stand for - credit you.

The code itself is broken down thus,

Z - indicates a 7" medium

T - transcription

S - indicates 45rpm

C - Chicago, where they were pressed

C for Chicago indicates the Columbia Custom Office in Chicago–the hub for outside, independent label clients.

 

They did not actually press the records there. The Columbia pressing plants for 45s in the 1960s were Bridgeport CT, Terra Haute IN, Pitman NJ and Santa Maria CA. Records pressed at any of these plants will still have the ZTSC code if the paperwork went through the Custom Office in Chicago.

 

The metalwork could have come from either a Columbia source (hence a stamped matrix) or sometimes from outside mastering (accounting for the etched or scratched matrices). As long as the account was administered through that Custom office it got a ZTSC matrix. 

 

There were other custom offices, Nashville (ZTSB) and Pitman (ZTSP).

 

Pitman also handled the admin for the vast majority of the Columbia the in-house labels too, so Columbia, Epic, Date, Okeh etc. in addition to lots of independent clients. ZTSP on a label or run-out doesn't necessarily mean the 45 was pressed at the Pitman plant though, just that it handled the admin of the process. 

 

Each of the Columbia plants used slightly different type styles on the label copy, whether it be different font sets or different layout styles. 

The information about runs above is misleading. 

 

1A isn't necessarily the first run, just as 1B isn't the second. These refer to different lacquers being cut from the same master.

 

The letters refer to the destination of the lacquer. The letters didn't correspond to a particular destination, that's why you can have a Columbia pressed 45 with (for example) 1A on one side and 1F on the other. Where a 45 was anticipated to sell in large numbers many lacquers would have been cut, going up to (I think) J.

 

Part 1 being replaced or superseded would be 2 then followed by the letter suffix.

The information about runs above is misleading. 

 

1A isn't necessarily the first run, just as 1B isn't the second. These refer to different lacquers being cut from the same master.

 

The letters refer to the destination of the lacquer. The letters didn't correspond to a particular destination, that's why you can have a Columbia pressed 45 with (for example) 1A on one side and 1F on the other. Where a 45 was anticipated to sell in large numbers many lacquers would have been cut, going up to (I think) J.

 

Part 1 being replaced or superseded would be 2 then followed by the letter suffix.

Many Thanks for sharing this Information, It has long been a mystery to collectors.

C for Chicago indicates the Columbia Custom Office in Chicago–the hub for outside, independent label clients.

 

They did not actually press the records there. The Columbia pressing plants for 45s in the 1960s were Bridgeport CT, Terra Haute IN, Pitman NJ and Santa Maria CA. Records pressed at any of these plants will still have the ZTSC code if the paperwork went through the Custom Office in Chicago.

 

The metalwork could have come from either a Columbia source (hence a stamped matrix) or sometimes from outside mastering (accounting for the etched or scratched matrices). As long as the account was administered through that Custom office it got a ZTSC matrix. 

 

There were other custom offices, Nashville (ZTSB) and Pitman (ZTSP).

 

Pitman also handled the admin for the vast majority of the Columbia the in-house labels too, so Columbia, Epic, Date, Okeh etc. in addition to lots of independent clients. ZTSP on a label or run-out doesn't necessarily mean the 45 was pressed at the Pitman plant though, just that it handled the admin of the process. 

 

Each of the Columbia plants used slightly different type styles on the label copy, whether it be different font sets or different layout styles. 

 

Amazing stuff - thanks!

Amazing! a thread I started 8 years ago! Thanks for the new input guys.

 

Ray

Brilliant thread, can we have more stuff like this please

Thanks for that information.  It would have been ice to have known all this 50 years ago.  But, as Mickey McCullers once sang, better late than never.