https://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/...,-20342,00.html

I saw this posed in the Notes & Queries section of the Guardian and it's something I've always wondered about Northern. Some records touch you so deep as to make you feel high, even though you know they're essentially sad, is this because they're in a minor key? Or am I simplifying it? Maybe it's not the key but other elements that get us going on the dance floor or crying in the toilet. Any theories?

https://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/...,-20342,00.html

I saw this posed in the Notes & Queries section of the Guardian and it's something I've always wondered about Northern. Some records touch you so deep as to make you feel high, even though you know they're essentially sad, is this because they're in a minor key? Or am I simplifying it? Maybe it's not the key but other elements that get us going on the dance floor or crying in the toilet. Any theories?

That's a diffiuclt one to judge Lisa. As a sweet soul lover the use of the harmonic minor has always lifted my flagging spirit.

Personally, I've always been swayed into loving or loathing a record based on an idiosyncrasy a subtle string arrangement or stop start rhythm.

I'm sure the more musically aware soul sourcers can shed more light on this.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/...,-20342,00.html

I saw this posed in the Notes & Queries section of the Guardian and it's something I've always wondered about Northern. Some records touch you so deep as to make you feel high, even though you know they're essentially sad, is this because they're in a minor key? Or am I simplifying it? Maybe it's not the key but other elements that get us going on the dance floor or crying in the toilet. Any theories?

Thanks for posting the link- tried to find a Guardian yesterday evening after you mentioned this to me but too late.

The difference between major and minor is the flattened third of the scale. If you imagine, as in 'Sound of Music', a scale in a 'doh reh me' type thing.. well, the Doh, and the Reh, are the same, for major and minor. It's the third note- whether that is 'close' ( a semitone) or, as you hear in the film, far away (a whole tone) that makes the difference between minor and major.

I've noticed that a lot of Northen Soul modulates between the 3rd and the 6th to great effect...

I was listening intently to 'That's no way to treat a girl' the other day as I decided I would try to identify the key changes as a bit of an exercise for myself; several listens later I had figured out that it starts on the third, moves to the 6th then to the 7th then to the 2nd! (the bit where you hear it move 'up' a key). All totally different to anything you'd be likely to come across in 'traditional' music.

Off the subject of soul.. I remember watching a Biography channel thing about The Beatles a few years back. One of the reasons they were so popular was that their music was based on old English mediaeval folk melodies. Apparently our responses to certain musical progressions is deep-rooted in our psyche! They took as an example 'Eleanor Rigby'..typical minor key sound. The only instruments used in this being a string quartet. They went through the gong in great detail showing how similar the harmonies were to traditional English music.

There is an exception, if you take 'atonal ' music like Shoenberg, based on 10-tone melodies, these don't have any sharps or flats, not based on a 'scale' and don't have a 'key signature'.

Just having a quick search online of a few terms like 'minor' and 'harmonics' has made me realise how much research there is in this subject- i.e. why music affects us the way it does.

Wonderful subject- thanks for bringing it up.

Edited May 21, 200817 yr by Catfish

Oh God I really, really wish I understood all this, the explanation above is fabulous but unless you can hear it I don't think you can get it. Well I can't anyway.

Interesting topic, many of the moody r&B / Northern sounds are in a minor key, few examples spring to mind..

I was a fool - Tony Middleton

This time - Ray pollard

Lets start a romance - Little Joe Hinton

Your little sister - Marvelows

FINDING THIS VERY INTERESTING, LIKE PETE DONT UNDERSTAND BUT A GREAT TOPIC

ARE MINOR KEYS -MUSICAL NOTES?

FINDING THIS VERY INTERESTING, LIKE PETE DONT UNDERSTAND BUT A GREAT TOPIC

ARE MINOR KEYS -MUSICAL NOTES?

Tunes in a minor key are determined by the key signature for the music. For example if a tune is in the key of C major, there are no sharps or flats (the black notes on a piano). A tune in the key of C minor however has the third note flattened (E Flat) and the sixth note and seventh note (A & B flat). The key signature will therefore show three flats (B, E and A - all black notes on the piano).

The following link has more information

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature

Hope this makes some sense!!

Edited May 21, 200817 yr by ShorterSoul

Just having a quick search online of a few terms like 'minor' and 'harmonics' has made me realise how much research there is in this subject- i.e. why music affects us the way it does.

Wonderful subject- thanks for bringing it up.

Have read quite a lot about music therapy and its effects - have seen some fascinating scans of the actual changes to the brains of Alzheimers patients after music therapy, with certain parts that were underactive being stimulated to work. Research in the area is still very much in its infancy though (and criminally underfunded for something which can have such remarkable results). But if intense focussed 'use' of music can bring about changes like this then I suppose it's no wonder that it "does things" to us on a normal basis.

I think (as it says on the Guardian page) that it is partly cultural - it's ingrained in us that minor keys are in the main 'sad' - but also certain intervals, patterns and musical devices can (consciously or not) remind us of, for example, crying, sighing or wailing. As Catfish says, key changes can also have an incredible effect, with that feeling of being 'lifted' or 'lowered'.

Pete - yes it is a lot easier to understand if you can hear it at the same time. When I did music exams we had to do the horrible 'aural' tests which include singing certain intervals above a given note, and one teacher I had gave us a list of well known songs which began with each interval which made it a great deal easier.. this page explains it quite well - https://blog.pandora.com/archives/podcast/2...ng_interva.html

Tunes in a minor key are determined by the key signature for the music. For example if a tune is in the key of C major, there are no sharps or flats (the black notes on a piano). A tune in the key of C minor however has the third note flattened (E Flat) and the sixth note and seventh note (A & B flat). Hope this makes sense!!

NOT REALLY BUT THANKS FOR THE EXPLANATION YOU SEE IVE GOT A FEW LP WHERE IT STATES MINOR CHORDS PLAYED ON A MELODICA

GOING TO ASK MY SISTER AS SHE WAS IN A YOUTH ORCHESTRA

CHEERS

TOAD

Tunes in a minor key are determined by the key signature for the music. For example if a tune is in the key of C major, there are no sharps or flats (the black notes on a piano). A tune in the key of C minor however has the third note flattened (E Flat) and the sixth note and seventh note (A & B flat). Hope this makes sense!!

Absolutely.. was just using the doh re me explanation as a way of trying to make it 'hearable'..

Each 'key signature' could be either a major or its relative minor, depending, exactly as you say, on whether it has the 'minor' semitone space between the second and the third. So no sharps and flats could be C major or A minor.

C minor relative major.. a minor third up.. Eflat major, three flats. The harmonic C minor I think the B flat would be naturalised on way up and down, melodic only on the way up and flat in line with the key signature on way back down... I'm just testing myself.. was that right? Rusty grade five theory from 22 years ago!!

Edited May 21, 200817 yr by Catfish

FANTASTIC ..PANDORA.. HAS A REGGAE PAGE THAT MIGHT HELP ME UNDERSTAND BUT WILL READ THROUGH THE LOT TO LEARN MORE!

Absolutely.. was just using the doh re me explanation as a way of trying to make it 'hearable'..

Each 'key signature' could be either a major or its relative minor, depending, exactly as you say, on whether it has the 'minor' semitone space between the second and the third. So no sharps and flats could be C major or A minor.

C minor relative major.. a minor third up.. Eflat major, three flats. The harmonic C minor I think the B flat would be naturalised on way up and down, melodic only on the way up and flat in line with the key signature on way back down... I'm just testing myself.. was that right? Rusty grade five theory from 22 years ago!!

Yep except melodic minor has sharpened 6th as well as 7th when ascending, then both are as per key sig when descending.

huh huh

Edited May 21, 200817 yr by platters 81

Yep except melodic minor has sharpened 6th as well as 7th when ascending, then both are as per key sig when descending.

yep, sounds right to me..

very rusty grade 7... 30 years ago!!

Tunes in a minor key are determined by the key signature for the music. For example if a tune is in the key of C major, there are no sharps or flats (the black notes on a piano). A tune in the key of C minor however has the third note flattened (E Flat) and the sixth note and seventh note (A & B flat). The key signature will therefore show three flats (B, E and A - all black notes on the piano).

The following link has more information

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature

Hope this makes some sense!!

No you may as well be writing in Chinese to be honest. One would have to know what flats, sharps, majors and minors, key signatures and other such things are. If you've never studied music...no chance

No you may as well be writing in Chinese to be honest. One would have to know what flats, sharps, majors and minors, key signatures and other such things are. If you've never studied music...no chance

If it helps to hear it -

Major scale: https://www.staveinvaders.com/cmajorscale.mp3

Minor scale: https://www.staveinvaders.com/c-minor-scale-piano.mp3

Basically if a tune is in a major key it uses the notes of the major scale, if it's in a minor key it uses the notes of the minor. Few are actually that straightforward though, and will include "accidentals" (notes not included in the scale) and changes to a different key. Hope that makes some sort of sense!

If it helps to hear it -

Major scale: https://www.staveinvaders.com/cmajorscale.mp3

Minor scale: https://www.staveinvaders.com/c-minor-scale-piano.mp3

Basically if a tune is in a major key it uses the notes of the major scale, if it's in a minor key it uses the notes of the minor. Few are actually that straightforward though, and will include "accidentals" (notes not included in the scale) and changes to a different key. Hope that makes some sort of sense!

Must be something in it,minors etc..How else can you explain grown men looking at each other and eulogising in such a way that would get you thrown out of most other places.

Pete,you don't need to understand it.A lump in the throat ,hairs standing up on the back of ya neck,tears welling up?I guess that's what they mean.

Must be something in it,minors etc..How else can you explain grown men looking at each other and eulogising in such a way that would get you thrown out of most other places.

Pete,you don't need to understand it.A lump in the throat ,hairs standing up on the back of ya neck,tears welling up?I guess that's what they mean.

Of course there's also lyrics, tone of voice, instruments, rhythm.. it would be fascinating to know how it works, but as you say the important thing is that it does

Must be something in it,minors etc..How else can you explain grown men looking at each other and eulogising in such a way that would get you thrown out of most other places.

Pete,you don't need to understand it.A lump in the throat ,hairs standing up on the back of ya neck,tears welling up?I guess that's what they mean.

some examples of Northern tunes in a major key....

Bring him back - Sissie Houston

I'm gonna love you long long time - Patty & Emblems

Out on the floor - Dobie gray

These all have a more upbeat and bright sound than than those in a minor key..

'What have i got now - Darrow Fletcher' (another tune in a minor key)

some examples of Northern tunes in a major key....

Bring him back - Sissie Houston

I'm gonna love you long long time - Patty & Emblems

Out on the floor - Dobie gray

These all have a more upbeat and bright sound than than those in a minor key..

'What have i got now - Darrow Fletcher' (another tune in a minor key)

Give us another couple of examples of minor key tunes if you can...because I prefer the Darrow Fletcher to the three mentioned before it so I might understand soon!

Heartaches look good - Carol and Gerri

Got to have your love - Roy Roberts

Crook his little finger - Ann Heywood

If it helps to hear it - Major scale: https://www.staveinvaders.com/cmajorscale.mp3 Minor scale: https://www.staveinvaders.com/c-minor-scale-piano.mp3 Basically if a tune is in a major key it uses the notes of the major scale, if it's in a minor key it uses the notes of the minor. Few are actually that straightforward though, and will include "accidentals" (notes not included in the scale) and changes to a different key. Hope that makes some sort of sense!

Just to complicate matters even more quite a few 60's tunes would have a complete key change.

Deadbeats - No Second Chance for one. Cant' remember if it's resolved (i.e. finishes up in the original key or not )

Heartaches look good - Carol and Gerri

Got to have your love - Roy Roberts

Crook his little finger - Ann Heywood

couple more..

Stop leave me heart alone - two people

I don't like to lose - Cecil Washington

Try to think - Court Davis

Edited May 21, 200817 yr by ShorterSoul

Just to complicate matters even more quite a few 60's tunes would have a complete key change.

Deadbeats - No Second Chance for one. Cant' remember if it's resolved (i.e. finishes up in the original key or not )

Hi Andy

From memory I think the deadbeats finishes in the original key, with a crash of notes right at the end.. there's certainly a few key changes where it goes up a semitone or two half way through..

I didn't mean to make it all sound complicated, I was notoriously shit at music at school and that's why I thought it could be simplified. But now I'm a bit more confused, I thought Doby Gray would be a minor, that piano riff is deeply depressing sounding to me, but I find the Roy Roberts record very exciting, so I guess I'm a minor key type of person. Maybe the soul community can be split into two types this way, regardless of which football team you support.

couple more..

Stop leave me heart alone - two people

I don't like to lose - Cecil Washington

Try to think - Court Davis

Chubby Checker - At the Discoteque! Starts major- then the slow bit in the middle 'something in a corner..table for two... ' is minor, then back to major for 'cause you're going to be there too' etc. & the brass break. Can't work out if the keynote changes.. think it stays same & just goes minor.. e.g. if it was E minor.. goes to E major..

There is one thing I am starting to realise.. some of these songs go all over the place!! And some are very simple.. Larry Clinton, Wanted- on the Tonic all the way through?? Starts major but then flattens the 7th for 'five foot 4 and a quarter'... going minor!! Can't work it out.. why it sounds like it does.. think whole thing is built on diminished 7th of the tonic?

Similar sound is that 'Jerk Baby Jerk' thing, plays on the heavy brass movement down to the 7th! - weird but sounds brilliant.

I wish I understood this better- I wish I could hear key changes better.. I'm trying to learn for an exam in Autumn but I get taught by being played snatches of classical music and the changes are usually so much more obvious. What I'm starting to realise is that the harmony in northern soul is often more complex than classical music. I think it's harder to understand- the changes are more frequent and unpredictable!

That's what makes it so wonderful- whether you want to understand it depends on what you want to do with it. I'm not sure where I'm going with this but there is something compulsive about it.

Michele

to put it more simply.

.

minor keys..sad

major keys..happy

so you will get a haunting Melodie with a minor key, does that help.

'What have i got now - Darrow Fletcher' (another tune in a minor key)

I kind of get this but have never known the correct term; I'm not sure if they are minor keys but I can immediately feel instant drama in songs that start on a certain notes or keys: The Belles, Don't Pretend; Rose St John, I Know The Meaning and the above are prime examples.

Edited May 21, 200817 yr by Byrney

I kind of get this but have never known the correct term; I'm not sure if they are minor keys but I can immediately feel instant drama in songs that start on a certain notes or keys: The Belles, Don't Pretend; Rose St John, I Know The Meaning and the above are prime examples.

Belles - yes possibly in a minor key with major chord changes throughout..

Rose St John, i would have said this in a major key, probably D Major (F and C keys are sharps - black notes on a piano), melody starts in this key then moves onto C major, G major chord, then F..confused yet ???

Generally, the main melody of the piece reflects the key signature..

So what's the deal on "I'm Gonna Change" - The Four Seasons?

There's some interesting stuff going on there isn't there.....?

Ian D

So what's the deal on "I'm Gonna Change" - The Four Seasons?

There's some interesting stuff going on there isn't there.....?

Ian D

Would say this is major key with some minor chords changes..

"The night" is a bit more of a complex tune and more interesting imho, starting off in minor key, then switching into a major key.. some nice harmonic chord changes in this tune

Edited May 21, 200817 yr by ShorterSoul

I'm intrigued...

What about the way Allen Toussaint plays his piano, as featured in Benny Spellman's 'Fortune teller' and 'This is for you my love, and Willie Harper's 'But I couldn't' (etc)...is that known as 'open chords'?

Edited May 22, 200817 yr by Anoraks Corner

Just to complicate matters even more quite a few 60's tunes would have a complete key change. Deadbeats - No Second Chance for one. Cant' remember if it's resolved (i.e. finishes up in the original key or not )

Hi Andy From memory I think the deadbeats finishes in the original key, with a crash of notes right at the end.. there's certainly a few key changes where it goes up a semitone or two half way through..

Listened to this last night and to my ears anyway it doesn't drop back down to the original key and it doesn't end with the new key tonic chord either. Kind of finishes with a leaves you hanging in the air type chord

Listened to this last night and to my ears anyway it doesn't drop back down to the original key and it doesn't end with the new key tonic chord either. Kind of finishes with a leaves you hanging in the air type chord

Just played this on Soulclub - definately returns to the original key at the end but your right about the final 'hanging in the air' chord..

This is a fantastic thread for me Lisa, so thanks for kicking it off!

I think a 'key' chart on some of the classics would make a lot of sense if anyone was prepared to undertake such an exercise. I know I'm drawn to weird changes and diminishing chords and other interesting tricks 'cos whenever I've had musicians analyse some of the songs I like, they'll say things like..."oh, they technically shouldn't have done that", "that's weird, you NEVER follow an E with a minor C" and "what the f*&k have they done there?" etc, etc.

Some of 'em work and some of 'em don't - ever heard the out-of-key horns on Towanda Barnes for instance and her impossible pitching LOL (even though it's still a phenomenal record)?

The above mentioned "I'm Gonna Change" and "The Night" (and even "Who Loves You" come to that), all have really interesting key changes and weird arrangements and I'm wondering if it's because The Four Seasons and Frankie Valli were highly focussed on vocal harmonics and their arrangers and producers could try out some innovative key changes and challenging arrangements?

I'd also like to know the keys and chords used on Duke Browner's "Crying Over You" as well as many of the vintage Detroit string backed releases - Al Kent, San Remo Strings, John Rhys etc, etc....

And "Exus Trek" LOL! What the HELL was going there?

Over the years I've always liked virtually anything with a great string arrangement and certainly stuff with challenging arrangements - Bobby Gentry's "Ode To Billy Joe" is a good pop example - what's the secret of that song's incredible arrangement in musical terms?

Questions, questions.

Please keep the analysis coming Catfish, Shorter Soul and Rachel. This could be the 'Guardian Section' of S.S. LOL....

Ian D

Yes Ian, I wish I understood it better. I guess it's exciting records like Exus Trek that got me into Northern though, because they were unusual. Ditto when I first heard Towanda Barnes thought it sounded a bit like Motorhead! There's a whole bunch of Northern records that I really don't get and I think it's the ones that follow a pop formula, intro-verse-chorus-verse etc, and played in an obvious key which would be chosen for pop as most palatable, ensuring a hit. But of course it's impossible to sumarise and you should never say "all northern".

As for writing a book about it, you, Rachel and Michele should definitely get together, I know a good graphic designer....

Lisa x

The general key the song is performed in when laying down the band track in the studio is also connected to the singers register. When my demos went to Detroit, the final keys were determined by how Spyder Turner and Pree would perform the vocals. In fact, one of the tracks recorded was in a much higher key than it should have been and it created a problem for the vocalist. However, because the song was brought down a couple of steps, it meant the singer could just about reach the high notes and get by. This meant an unusual nuance in the vocal, giving the track a more soulful sound as the singer was out her comfort zone, but it worked.

then F..confused yet ???

My god yes

Yep except melodic minor has sharpened 6th as well as 7th when ascending, then both are as per key sig when descending.

Crumbs you're good at this- it's like being able to do long division in your head- I'm not quite at that stage yet and have to look at the scale book or write stuff down to figure out these things! As I said a bit rusty- and well worried about the standard of aural tests for grade 8 violin where they ask you to identify the modulations.

I've listened to the podcast you recommended and it's really useful; I will listen to it again.

Thanks for the Pristines Ken! Crumbs what an influence Sound of Music unwittingly has ...

I will be looking through this again as there is lots to learn on here but now I have to eat as have orchestra rehearsal in half an hour.

Key charts.. interesting stuff on one of the groups in Facebook about this.. again more reading required. Moving house next Tues so bit busy but will be back..

Cheers

Michele

x

Here's the deal....minor miserable is good - major happy is not good

Marv Johnson - With all that's in me

Sam Ambrose - Welcome to Dreamsville

Four Tops - Shake me, wake me

Precisions - Such Misery

Sidra's Theme...

Kim Weston - I'm still loving you

Little Anthony & Imperials - Hurt so Bad

Tony Middleton - Paris Blues

Hang on....this is most of my set I love a bit of heartache and misery...fabulous

Yes Ian, I wish I understood it better. I guess it's exciting records like Exus Trek that got me into Northern though, because they were unusual. Ditto when I first heard Towanda Barnes thought it sounded a bit like Motorhead! There's a whole bunch of Northern records that I really don't get and I think it's the ones that follow a pop formula, intro-verse-chorus-verse etc, and played in an obvious key which would be chosen for pop as most palatable, ensuring a hit. But of course it's impossible to sumarise and you should never say "all northern".

As for writing a book about it, you, Rachel and Michele should definitely get together, I know a good graphic designer....

Lisa x

It's all fascinating isn't it?

I call it the eighth wonder of the world. Namely, how come the North of England developed an instaiable taste for the forgotten sounds of 60's obscure uptown soul.

Betcha ass I'll write about it babes!

I just love the fact that we're analysing it to the nth degree. It truly is a phenomenon and, as such, needs documenting IMO.

I'm thankful that we have so many more resoiurces these days! Like this for instance.

This thread is absolutely cream on the top for me. The beauty of Soul Source......

We should be so lucky.........

Ian D

It's all fascinating isn't it?

I just love the fact that we're analysing it to the nth degree. It truly is a phenomenon and, as such, needs documenting IMO.

I'm thankful that we have so many more resoiurces these days! Like this for instance.

This thread is absolutely cream on the top for me. The beauty of Soul Source......

Ian D

Quality thread this.

I love analysing the nuances of soul music although I haven't got a clue regarding the terminology; just my own crude understanding of how I react to certain peculiarities that I've only heard in this music of ours.

That missed word in a repeated chorus which technically should be there but to great effect isn't. The numerous key changes, a vocal stumble on certain notes or the sigh in places which seems to be caused by emotion in expressing the lyrics, all casually delivered almost as if they're mistakes. All of them add up to that bundle of stuff that make you tingle like good un.