An associate is in the process of writing a book on the London club scene of the 60's with a very heavy emphasis on the nascent 6T's London soul scene and I have been asked to post this on Soul Source.

In particular, as much information as is possible is needed on two important figures, Pete Meaden & Jimmy James and the Vagabonds .

Pete Meaden for those unaware was famously the man who first managed the Who but he was also one of the top "faces" on the original London mod scene.

Soul music was his obsession.

Some have said that Pete Meaden in his own way was as crucial in the acceptance of soul and RnB music in the UK at the time as other influential figures such as Dave Godin, Guy Stephens etc.

After selling the Who's contract he put together Jimmy James & the Vagabonds. Meaden's philosophy on life and soul music was encapsulated on the sleevenotes to the Vagabond's first LP entitled The New Religion . Every soul fan should take the time to read those sleeve notes.

Relatively little is known about Meaden save for some renewed interest in him when the mod revival hit in the late 70's. There was an interview with a UK music paper at that time but not long afterwards he died.

Did any Soul Source members personally know or have contact with Meaden in the 60's ? Any photos, clippings or reminiscences of the man ? One wonders whether the late Randy Cozens would have known him ?

Similarly with Jimmy James and the Vagabonds, did anyone see them live in their earliest incarnation in '65/66 ? Whenever the 6Ts London soul scene is mentioned, Geno Washington is the one who gets name checked but Jimmy James was equally popular with mods and soul fans.

Your help would be most appreciated.

Edited July 21, 200816 yr by sunnysoul

The book sounds a great idea,would love to see playlists of sounds played at The Scene,etc.

You have covered media coverage that i've seen,interview was NME 17/11/79.

The book "Mod-a very British phenomenon" by Terry Rawlings,is worth looking at and has a re-produced

biography from one of the 60's magazines.

Could also try contacting Pete Townshend for information on his website.

There was aprograme on a few months ago about Jimmy James playing at the Flimingo club in London..

maybe someone can remember it..

sorry no help but that may jog someones memory...

There was aprograme on a few months ago about Jimmy James playing at the Flimingo club in London..

maybe someone can remember it..

sorry no help but that may jog someones memory...

Ed Piller was writing a book on Meaden, and had worked through a great chunk of the research. You can contact him via Acid Jazz Records.

Sunny

It's worth remembering the role played by the pirate radio ships in bridging the gap between the London club scene and the wider public. For us kids out on the coast at Clacton the sound track of our lives from 1965 thru' 67 was Radio London (Big L).

You can see all their charts on line here: Radio London

You will see all sorts of soul stuff creeping in which never made the mainstream charts.

Just out of interest I checked out Jimmy James and he had 3 chart entries

This Heart of Mine which peaked at 31 in August 1966

Ain't Love Good, Ain't Love Proud which peaked at 19 in November 1966

No Good To Cry which peaked at 27 in June 1967

I didn't see either Jimmy or Geno live until after the 60's but for us kids in Clacton Geno's street cred was MASSIVE compared to JJ. All due of course to THAT Live album. One great club performer I did see at the time was Freddie Mack. By coincidence got an ad here for Billy Walker's club out at Forest Gate in 1967. It features both Jimmy James(Mr Dynamite) AND Freddie Mack.

MB

As far as I recall I'm sure Jimmy James & The Vagabonds appeared at the Scene, probably late 65 or early 66. Not sure if it was on a Friday night, will have to consult my erstwhile clubgoing friends. I don't think I actually went to see him, a bit snobby about British attempts at R&B and soul in those days.

The book sounds a great idea,would love to see playlists of sounds played at The Scene,etc.

You have covered media coverage that i've seen,interview was NME 17/11/79.

The book "Mod-a very British phenomenon" by Terry Rawlings,is worth looking at and has a re-produced

biography from one of the 60's magazines.

Could also try contacting Pete Townshend for information on his website.

As for 'Scene' playlists...When I lived in London, I worked with a guy called Pete from Barnes who used to frequent the Scene Club. As a 1979-era mod (boy, did he scoff when I told him that...) I asked him about the sort of stuff they played there, I was quite surprised when he said that along with the expected early Motown and RnB material, there was also a lot of stuff like Jerry Lee Lewis's or Ray Charles's country recordings, loads of slow blues, doo-wop, 'Brill Building' tunes and even calypso music played. As he pointed out, this was 63/64 and 'soul music' as we know it now really didn't exist.

As for 'Scene' playlists...When I lived in London, I worked with a guy called Pete from Barnes who used to frequent the Scene Club. As a 1979-era mod (boy, did he scoff when I told him that...) I asked him about the sort of stuff they played there, I was quite surprised when he said that along with the expected early Motown and RnB material, there was also a lot of stuff like Jerry Lee Lewis's or Ray Charles's country recordings, loads of slow blues, doo-wop, 'Brill Building' tunes and even calypso music played. As he pointed out, this was 63/64 and 'soul music' as we know it now really didn't exist.

Sometime ago I posted up lists of records played there that I remembered, obviously not at all comprehensive. I think it was in a thread about the Mod top 100.

When I first went there in 1963 loads of Chuck Berry records were played, they were being covered by British beat groups at the time. Also Bo Diddley, etc. Rock'n'roll records were played, particularly remember Tequila (Champs); Summertime Blues (Eddie Cochran) and Lewis Boogie (Jerry Lee Lewis).

Don't recall calypso, but perhaps he was thinking of Jamaica Ska (Ska Kings) or other ska (Bluebeat) records played. Slow records were played, as in all soul clubs in the 60s, not beat ballads. Hammond organ instrumentals, and even some jazzy stuff.

Sometime ago I posted up lists of records played there that I remembered, obviously not at all comprehensive. I think it was in a thread about the Mod top 100.

When I first went there in 1963 loads of Chuck Berry records were played, they were being covered by British beat groups at the time. Also Bo Diddley, etc. Rock'n'roll records were played, particularly remember Tequila (Champs); Summertime Blues (Eddie Cochran) and Lewis Boogie (Jerry Lee Lewis).

Don't recall calypso, but perhaps he was thinking of Jamaica Ska (Ska Kings) or other ska (Bluebeat) records played. Slow records were played, as in all soul clubs in the 60s, not beat ballads. Hammond organ instrumentals, and even some jazzy stuff.

Geoff

I found that list you posted (April 2007) very interesting and really caught the "vibe" of the times. I didn't want to lose it so printed out a copy.

Here it is:

James Ray - If you gotta make a fool of somebody

Bo Diddley - Bo Diddley/Pretty thing/Road runner/Diddley daddy

Chuck Berry - Go go go/Nadine (and probably most of his 50s hits)

Barrett Strong - Money

Jimmy Reed - Shame shame shame/Baby what you want me to do

J B Lenoir - I sing um the way I feel

Derak Martin - Daddy rolling stone

Inez & Charlie Foxx - Mocking bird/Hurt by love/La de dah I love you

Barbara George - I know

Chuck Jackson - Any day now

Impressions - It's all right/See the real me/Talking about my baby/You must believe me

Jimmy Smith - The cat

Jimmy McGriff - The last time/All about my girl/I got a woman

James Brown - Who's afraid of Virginia Wolf/Night train/Papa's got a brand new bag

Major Lance - Monkey time/Hey little girl/Rhythm/Um um um um um um/Watusi/Sweet music

Supremes - When the lovelight starts shining through his eyes/Where did our love go/Come see about me/Back in my arms again/I hear a symphony

Isley Bros - Twist and shout

Temptations - The way you do the things you do/The girl's all right by me/I'll be in trouble/Why you wanna make me blue/It's growing/My baby/Ain't too proud to beg

Tams - You lied to your daddy

Wilson Pickett - Come home baby/In the midnight hour/Don't fight it/6345789

Sam & Dave - You don't know like I know/Hold on I'm coming

Vibrations - My girl sloopy

Killer Joe Orchestra = My girl sloopy

Reflections - (Just like) Romeo and Juliet

Little Mac and the Boss Sound - In the midnight hour

Mongo Santamaria - Watermelon man

Georgie Fame - Yeh yeh

Barbara Lewis - Pushin' a good thing too far

Drifters - Sweets for my sweet/Under the boardwalk/One way love/Come on over to my place/At the club/Saturday night at the movies/I'll take you where the music's playing

Little Richard - Bama Lama Loo

Prince Buster - Madness/10 commandments of man

Folks Bros - Carolina

Tony Washington - Show me how to milk a cow

Champs - Tequila

Freddie Cannon - Tallahassee lassie

Jerry Lee Lewis - Lewis boogie/Lovin' up a storm

Carl Perkins - Blue suede shoes/Good golly miss molly

Bill Haley - Shake rattle and roll

Shirley Ellis - The nitty gritty/The name game/The clapping song

Bobby Freeman - C'mon and swim

Tommy Duncan - Dance dance dance

William Bell - Monkey see monkey do/Don't stop now/Never like this before

Otis Redding - Mr Pitiful/Respect

Eddie Floyd - Things get better

Four Tops - Baby I need your loving/I can't help myself/The same old song/Something about you/Wake me shake me

Miracles - I like it like that/You're so fine and sweet/That's what love is made of/I gotta dance to keep from crying/My girl has gone/Mickey's monkey/First side of "I like it like that" LP

Righteous Bros - My babe/Hung on you

Martha & The Vandellas - In my lonely room/Nowhere to run/Motorin'

Crystals - Da doo ron ron

Bob B Sox & The Blue Jeans - Zippadee doh dah/Why do lovers break each other's hearts?

Darlene Love - Wait till my Bobby comes home

Earl Jean - I'm into something good

Jackie Ross - Selfish one/Jerk and twine

Larks - The jerk

Blendells - La la la la la la

Cannibal & The Headhunters - Land of a thousand dances

Lee Dorsey - Ride your pony/Kitty kat song/Can you hear me/Work work work

Toys - Lovers concerto

Newbeats - Bread and butter/Run baby run

Four Seasons - Let's hang on

Len Barry - 1 2 3/Like a baby

Fontella Bass - Rescue me

Fontella Bass & Bobby McClure - Don't mess up a good thing

Tony Clarke - Ain't love good, ain't love proud/The entertainer

Castaways - Liar liar

Ronnie & The Daytonas - GTO

Beach Boys - Barbara Ann

Vogues - You're the one

Lou Christie - Lightnin' strikes

Sonny - Laugh at me

Jewel Aitkens - Birds and the bees

Marvin Gaye - Can I get a witness/You're a wonderful one/Try it baby/Walk on the wild side/Baby don't you do it/How sweet it is/I'll be doggone/Ain't that peculiar

Marvelettes - I'll keep on holding on/Danger heartbreak dead ahead

Poets - She blew a good thing

Invitations - What's wrong with me baby

Willie Mitchell - Everything's gonna be all right/That driving beat

Ace Cannon - Tuff

Booker T & The MGs - Red beans and rice/Slim Jenkins place

Solomon Burke - Everybody needs somebody to love/Got to get you off my mind/Maggie's farm

Doris Troy - Just one look/What'cha gonna do about it

Rufus Thomas- Jump back/The Dog/Walking the dog/Can your monkey do the dog/Walking the dog LP/Willy nilly

Elmore James - Dust my broom

Homesick James - Crossroads

Don Covay - Mercy mercy/Seesaw

Alvin Robinson - Down home girl/Something you got

Sam The Sham & The Pharoahs - Woolly Bully

Dobie Gray - The in crowd

Betty Everett & Jerry Butler - Ain't that loving you baby

Betty Everett - Getting mighty crowded/It's in his kiss

Sir Douglas Quintet - She's about a mover

Sugar Pie DeSanto - Soulful dress

Mar-Keys - Last night

John Lee Hooker - Dimples/Boom boom

Sam Cooke - Shake/Sugar Dumpling

Jackie Wilson - Baby workout

Contours - First I look at the purse

Kim Weston - Take me in your arms

Alvin Cash - Twine time

?????? - Jamaica Ska

Wilbert Harrison - Let's stick together

Bob & Earl - Harlem shuffle

Jackie Lee - The duck/Temptation walk

Gene Chandler - A song called soul/Nothing can stop me/Good times

? Billy Young - The sloopy

Elmore James - Dust my broom

Thanks for posting my list, not got it to hand at the moment. Obviously loads more that I can't remember or when I wasn't there. One that sticks in my mind is a version of the old standard My Funny Valentine, can't remember the tempo it, but it was a long time ago.

The book sounds a great idea,would love to see playlists of sounds played at The Scene,etc.

You have covered media coverage that i've seen,interview was NME 17/11/79.

The book "Mod-a very British phenomenon" by Terry Rawlings,is worth looking at and has a re-produced

biography from one of the 60's magazines.

Could also try contacting Pete Townshend for information on his website.

That's what I would do ! Eddie Piller, Terry Rawlings and Pete Townshend would be the first point of call for info on Peter Meadon.

Terrys book has quite a bit of info on Peter - A tragic sad story about a very intense, complicated and influential person IMVHO.

Good luck with the book - I am sure it will be a fantastic read !

We used to have fantastic all dayers on a Sunday at a club called McGoos here in Edinburgh, around 1966 we had JJ and Geno on that year, JJ was massive at the club and you simply could not move in the place when he was on, we are talking about a converted (large) cinema here, the thing that sticks out in my mind that day was Ain't Love Good, Ain't No Big Thing and to top it off Red Red Wine ended a day never to be forgotten by me.

Geno simply tore the roof off the place with a non stop barrage of soul covers and a few of his own songs, of course back then you only got 45 -60 minutes and he crammed his set into a blistering finale with Que Sera...ahh those were the days my friend!....and to top this he is appearing at the Edinburgh Festival this year so might have to dig my Hand Clapping etc etc albums out!

Just as a matter of interest does anyone know what is on the site of the old Flamingo Club in London?

Lenny

Sorry to split a hair or two, but Meaden didn't actually 'put together' Jimmy James and the Vagabonds, who were already a well established group - with an album release on Decca - when Meaden became involved.

Other than that I would agree that his contributions to the early Mod scene are important, although possibly more from the image side than the musical one.

Just as a matter of interest does anyone know what is on the site of the old Flamingo Club in London?

Haven't passed by the site for a couple of years but it was a Ladbroke's last time I looked, Len. Mind you the bookies was 'downstairs' for years, even when the Flamingo and then the Wag were going in other parts of the building...

Edited July 26, 200816 yr by TONY ROUNCE

Sorry to split a hair or two, but Meaden didn't actually 'put together' Jimmy James and the Vagabonds, who were already a well established group - with an album release on Decca - when Meaden became involved.

Other than that I would agree that his contributions to the early Mod scene are important, although possibly more from the image side than the musical one.

Yes, correct Tony, although reading the sleeve notes of the "New Religion" LP, Meaden appears to imply that he transformed them into a fully fledged RnB (ie soul) group , gave them a new musical direction.

What type of material appears on their Decca LP ? Is it soul / RnB based ?

Meaden also waxes lyrical about the "New Wave RnB" with Curtis Mayfield and The Impressions at the vanguard, and he acknowledges music journalist Norman Jopling of Record Mirror as being crucial in the acceptance of RnB in the UK.

Yes, correct Tony, although reading the sleeve notes of the "New Religion" LP, Meaden appears to imply that he transformed them into a fully fledged RnB (ie soul) group , gave them a new musical direction.

What type of material appears on their Decca LP ? Is it soul / RnB based ?

Meaden also waxes lyrical about the "New Wave RnB" with Curtis Mayfield and The Impressions at the vanguard, and he acknowledges music journalist Norman Jopling of Record Mirror as being crucial in the acceptance of RnB in the UK.

I would agree 100% about Norman, and I would say that the same applies to Tony Hall, the DJ and former Decca press officer, whose Record Mirror column was always 100% pro-soul. It was Hall who helped to break Otis Redding over here by urging his Decca bosses to release "My Girl" as a (UK only) 45, for instance. And, although it wasn't a UK hit, it was he who convinced them to issue Barbara Lewis' "Hello Stranger" here - just to name but two things.

Happily both men are still around and still enjoying their music.

The Vagabonds' album on Decca, which was later reissued on the cheper Decca Eclipse label, is a mixture of styles - some ska, some soul, some other stuff, but mostly the former. Oh yes, and Count Prince Miller's unique version of "Mule Train" is on there, too. Meaden may have been right about pushing them more towards soul, but I have a feeling that they were probably getting there on their own anyway!

Sunny

Do you have the CD compilation called "Vagabond King - The Sixties Sides"?

It includes a booklet with 6 sides of text about the band's career. There might be something in there of interest.

It mentions the early Decca album referred to by Tony which it says was "Caribbean-orientated". Also an E.P. on Decca.

MB

P.S.

Tony - Just realised that "Vagabond King" was actually one of your compilations. Sorry I hadn't noticed that before.

I was no huge fan of JJ first time round. But this CD really turned me on to the quality of the man.

Thanks for that!!!

MB

By sheer coincidence I found JJ and the V's LP on Atco over the weekend...superb LP it is too (Come softly to me' - Atco SD 33-222).

The sleeve note states, 'When they finally cracked through one sizzling, roaring night at the Birdcage Club in the city of Portsmouth, after two rough, hard years on the road there was no stopping them'.

It also mentions that Doris Troy, Madeline Bell and Goldie (?) helped out on vocals on the LP.

Now, should I file it or sell it?!

My modish sister used to play a JJ&TV album of hers on MFP called 'Come To Me Softly'.

Would ATCO have licensed this to them? Are we talking about the same LP?

As a 15 year old Soul fan learning the ropes, some of the tracks on the album appealed to me,

but most of my pals sniffed at it as being 'commercial shite'. We used to be quite narrow minded

in those days. :-)

My modish sister used to play a JJ&TV album of hers on MFP called 'Come To Me Softly'.

Would ATCO have licensed this to them? Are we talking about the same LP?

They are Pye UK recordings licensed out to Atco US...and MFP...'Production and Supervision: Jimmy James & Peter Meaden'.

When I first went there in 1963 loads of Chuck Berry records were played,

No great surprise there, as Guy Stevens was one of the biggest Chuck Berry fans that ever lived and, prior to DJ'ing and being head of A & R for Sue, actually ran Chuck's UK fan club.

My pal Brian Peters was the Scene DJ after Guy, and before James Hamilton (who he taught to DJ) and he's always confirmed what Geoff says about the musical diversity. I remember being stunned to find out from Brian that Eddie Cochran's "Weekend" was a big Scene tune - and I even played it at 6Ts in West Hampstead once, 'in tribute'!

Like Geoff, Brian has a really good recall of the Scene's big tunes. Two more that he's always mentioned to me that aren't in Geoff's list are "Do You Know How To Twist" and "Poppin' The Whip", both by Hank Ballard and the Midnighters. He's probably mentioned loads more in the near 40 years that I've known him, but it's a hot day and I'm trying not to overtax the old grey matter...

Dave, Goldie would have been Goldie of & The Gingerbreads fame.

Brian reckoned Tony Washington's UK Sue released 'Show Me How To Milk A Cow' was one of the biggest records there; complete with very obvious dance actions.

I spoke to a 66 mod yesterday who said he was so in awe of the Scene and it's seniority in the Mod world that he wouldn't have dreamed of going down there, he stuck to Tiles and other places.

Just remembered I had a nice Jimmy James EP on Piccadilly featuring This Heart Of Mine, pic below, value anyone?

Just remembered I had a nice Jimmy James EP on Piccadilly featuring This Heart Of Mine, pic below, value anyone?

I got £25 for my copy on Ebore a couple of years ago Pete, can't really think why I sold it...wish I hadn't now

Lenny

Brian reckoned Tony Washington's UK Sue released 'Show Me How To Milk A Cow' was one of the biggest records there; complete with very obvious dance actions.

When you see him next ask him if he remembers the dance that was done to Sam The Sham's Woolly Bully? I certainly couldn't do it now. I remember the dance to Show Me How To Milk A Cow.

I do wonder where my life's gone sometimes. I can remember all this stuff, yet when I walked into work today I couldn't remember something from last Thursday, lol.

Like Geoff, Brian has a really good recall of the Scene's big tunes. Two more that he's always mentioned to me that aren't in Geoff's list are "Do You Know How To Twist" and "Poppin' The Whip", both by Hank Ballard and the Midnighters. He's probably mentioned loads more in the near 40 years that I've known him, but it's a hot day and I'm trying not to overtax the old grey matter...

I don't remember either of those, but I can't remember a lot of what I heard on Saturday night either. Current releases weren't played for that long, of course there was a stream of good releases, plus imports. Often heard records well before their British release.

If you see Brian ask him if he can remember any other ones, I'd be interested. Once in a blue moon I hear something that I haven't heard since those days, think the last one was Billy Young's The Sloopy.

Suppose that's similar to ex Casino people hearing a forgotten record from there.

Dave, Goldie would have been Goldie of & The Gingerbreads fame.

I assumed (dangerous I know!) that it was indeed Ms.Ravan, rather than the infamous Drum'n'bass dogg!

Thanks for the confirmation.

JIMMY JAMES

I know if Peter Meaden was alive today he would probably be off his head on the latest designer drugs dancing to the newest funky beats, dressed in up to the minute clothing ! No time for this retro thing baby ! IMVHO!

Edited July 29, 200816 yr by mossy

Not too disimalar to Andrew Loog OLdham's rants on the back of the early Stones LPs. Now didn't Meaden work with Oldham and the Stones at some point? Maybe he is another one to try and contact. I also think Meaden worked with Georgie Fame as his PR guy.

Sunnysoul

I'm wondering if you or your associate have got hold of a book called "Anyway Anyhow Anywhere - The Complete Chronicle of the Who - 1958-1978".

It has over 300 BIG pages of info and pictures.

I just found time to pull out my copy to see exactly what it says in there about Meaden. Assuming the authors are right - which I am sure they are - Meaden never was legally the Who's manager. Their manager from February 1964 was a guy named Helmut Gorden who in turn paid Meaden a wage of £50 a week "to put the group together" and act as their publicist.

Of course Meaden went about it with such enthusiasm that the group considered him more as their manager than Gorden.

Nevertheless legally it was Gorden who was ousted by Lambert and Stamp.

Initially Meaden would not accept that his services were no longer required and kept turning up at rehearsals until Lambert gave him a one-off payment of £250 to stay away.

It seems that there was no ongoing animosity between Meaden and the group. Several years later Meaden brokered the deal whereby the Steve Gibbons Band was signed to Daltrey's record label, Goldhawke. And Meaden acted as their "co-manager".

There's some more interesting stuff in here. A nice picture of a master tape label with "Mr Meaden" typed on it but crossed through and "Gorden" hand-written in it's place.

Etc. etc. etc.

MB

P.S. Apparently Meaden tried to talk Guy Steven's into releasing the High Numbers' (Who's) Miracles cover "Gotta Dance To Keep From Crying" on the U.K. Sue label. I guess that never happened.

here is a rare handwritten page by Pete Meaden about Jimmy James and the Vagabonds, probably a press release or working on some liner notes for a record .

you might also find some interesting bits and pieces on Pete Meaden on our site

https://jackthatcatwasclean.blogspot.com/

stay hip and cool .

Thierry

I just came across this Pete Meaden pic I had never seen before with Pete Townshend. It has to be late 70s not long before his tragic death.