Or am I exaggerating?

There are two white promos on Ebay right now.

Or am I exaggerating?

There are two white promos on Ebay right now.

Also John Manship has a red one, but i think it is probably a coincidence.

I'd be far more concerned about the Sensations / Demanding Man, finishing tonight, for no other reason than where it is coming from (Think how rare the royal Esquires is ... )

Cheers

Mick Holdsworth

https://northern-soul-records.com

https://motownsound.co.uk

Sensations I was so surprised to see a 1966 tag on the record, I thought it was a crossover thing from 1969 73 Doh.

Sensations I was so surprised to see a 1966 tag on the record, I thought it was a crossover thing from 1969 73 Doh.

I think that refers to the inception of the label rather than the release of this particular number.

Just as Mar-V-lus has 1963 on it's label for most of the releases.

I think that refers to the inception of the label rather than the release of this particular number.

Just as Mar-V-lus has 1963 on it's label for most of the releases.

I think Tony is absolutely correct regarding this point. The particular copy of The Sensations for auction is about the cleanest copy of the record I've seen, so probably worth the bucks to those wishing to upgrade to a minter. A great record into the bargain: group Northern gets no better than this double-sider in my opinion.

Something has occured to me about Way Out releases which exist on several variants of the label such as Bobby Wade I'm In Love With You and Jesse Fisher's You're Not Loving A Beginner: conventional wisdom has it that the first issue of these is on the red and white logo (as per Demanding Man), and that the other releases (grey in the case of Bobby Wade, magenta and yellow in the instance of Jesse Fisher) are later issues, carrying lesser pricetags. I wonder if this is really the case.

My theory is that the ones on the red and white logo could very well be be later pressings on remaindered blanks of the "c.1966" stock. If you think about it any record label would press on the latest, 'hip and happening' variant of its label design first, then, when stocks of this are exhausted and a 45 demands another pressing run, on its older blanks if they happen to be lying around.

Something to think about next time a red and white Jesse Fisher is offered at a price premium above the multicoloured label version.

Edited November 26, 200816 yr by garethx

any ideas on the date of this track then, so I am not fare off the mark.

I think Tony is absolutely correct regarding this point. The particular copy of The Sensations for auction is about the cleanest copy of the record I've seen, so probably worth the bucks to those wishing to upgrade to a minter. A great record into the bargain: group Northern gets no better than this double-sider in my opinion.

Something has occured to me about Way Out releases which exist on several variants of the label such as Bobby Wade I'm In Love With You and Jesse Fisher's You're Not Loving A Beginner: conventional wisdom has it that the first issue of these is on the red and white logo (as per Demanding Man), and that the other releases (grey in the case of Bobby Wade, magenta and yellow in the instance of Jesse Fisher) are later issues, carrying lesser pricetags. I wonder if this is really the case.

My theory is that the ones on the red and white logo could very well be be later pressings on remaindered blanks of the "c.1966" stock. If you think about it any record label would press on the latest, 'hip and happening' variant of its label design first, then, when stocks of this are exhausted and a 45 demands another pressing run, on its older blanks if they happen to be lying around.

Something to think about next time a red and white Jesse Fisher is offered at a price premium above the multicoloured label version.

I don't think that the red/white releases are later pressings. There was a very good article about Way Out in Shades of Soul. The later, multi-coloured releases were nationally distributed (by MGM I recall?) and since most of the earlier releases did quite well, the label owners had the funds to invest in re-designed multicoloured printed labels. quite simple to me...

any ideas on the date of this track then, so I am not fare off the mark.

1966. Here's the listing lifted from Dave Rimmer's site

2605 - Lou Ragland & Bandmasters - Never Let Me Go / Party At Lesters - 1964

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / I Know My Baby Loves Me - 1964

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / Last Heartbreak - 1964

2799/80 - The Springers - Last Heartbreak / Why - 1964

3359/60 - The Gaylords - Never Go Back To GA / Loose Beat - 196?

5564 - Joan Bias - I Don't Know What's Right Any More / Crazy Over You - 196?

5696 - The Springers - You Can Laugh / It's Been A Long Time - 1965

1966 - Verna & Bob - More Soul / I'm In Love With You - 1965

W01 - Norman Scott - Baby Don't Go / Ain't That A Heartache - 1966

1047 - The Sensations - Get On Up Mama / I Won't Be Hurt - 1966

5945 - Laura Green - Don Deopo / Come Have A Drink With Me - 1966

2001 - Bobby Wade - Four Walls And One Window / Can't You Hear Me Calling - 1966

2003 - The Harmonics - Which Way / Harmonics On The Warpath - 1966

2005 - The Sensations - Gonna Step Aside / Demanding Man - 1966

2006 - Volcanic Eruption - I've Got Something Going For Me / Red Robin - 1966

? - Ben Iverson & The Hornets - Love Me / Fool's Rush In - 1967

4957 - Lester Johnson & The Hornets - Wedding Day / Jamaica Farewell - 1967

5947 - The Sensations - Too Shy / Please Baby, Please - 1967

5696 - The Springers - It's Been A Long Time / You Can Laugh - 1967

2669 - The Springers - I Know My Baby Loves Me So / I Know Why - 1967

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / Last Heartbreak - 1967

1000 - The Sensations - Gotta Find Myself Another Girl / Lonely World - 1968

1001 - The Soul Notes - Don't Make Me Beg / How Long Will It Last - 1968

1002 - Fred Towles - Too Much Monkey Business / Part 2 - 1968

1003 - The Sensations - Oh / I Guess That's Life - 1968

1004 - Fred Towles & The Jacksonians - Hook It To The Mule / Inst. - 1969

1005 - The Sensations - It's A New Day / Two Can Make It - 1969

1006 - The Soul Notes - How Long Will It Last / I Got Everything I Need - 1969

1051 - The Soul Notes - How Long Will It Last / Don't Make Me Bag - 1969

011 - The Boss Singers - My God On High / So Many Years - 1970

101 - Ruby Carter & The Exceptional Three - Unlucky Girl / What About Me - 1971

103 - Bobby Wade - I'm In Love With You / Down Here On The Ground - 1971

104 - Jesse Fisher - You're Not Loving A Beginner / Waiting - 1971

105 - Embryo Infinity Rebirth - Let Me Tell You A Story / Walls - 1971

106 - Jesse Fisher - Why / Little John - 1971

984 - Jesse Fuller - Super Funky / Part 2 - 1972

100 - Jesse Fuller - Mr.Super Nobody / Don't Cheat On Me - 1973

1966. Here's the listing lifted from Dave Rimmer's site

2605 - Lou Ragland & Bandmasters - Never Let Me Go / Party At Lesters - 1964

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / I Know My Baby Loves Me - 1964

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / Last Heartbreak - 1964

2799/80 - The Springers - Last Heartbreak / Why - 1964

3359/60 - The Gaylords - Never Go Back To GA / Loose Beat - 196?

5564 - Joan Bias - I Don't Know What's Right Any More / Crazy Over You - 196?

5696 - The Springers - You Can Laugh / It's Been A Long Tis Me Bag - 1969

011 - The Boss Singers - My God On High / So Many Years - 1970

101 - Ruby Carter & The Exceptional Three - Unlucky Girl / What About Me - 1971

103 - Bobby Wade - I'm In Love With You / Down Here On The Ground - 1971

104 - Jesse Fisher - You're Not Loving A Beginner / Waiting - 1971

105 - Embryo Infinity Rebirth - Let Me Tell You A Story / Walls - 1971

106 - Jesse Fisher - Why / Little John - 1971

984 - Jesse Fuller - Super Funky / Part 2 - 1972

100 - Jesse Fuller - Mr.Super Nobody / Don't Cheat On Me - 1973

volcanic eruption is 2002 not 2006

The multi-coloured labels 100 to 105 were MGM distributed 1968 /69.

the last multi in the series 106 seems not to be MGM dist. but carries the same design but in much poorer quality paper & print. I imagine Way Out retained the design and got a local printer to copy it for that release.

I personally can't see any milage in the theory Red & White being a second press...

Not as straightforward as this at all Benji. The Jesse Fisher YNLAB 45 is not distributed by MGM. While the multicolored issue is on an MGM-type blank the rest of the typesetting (i.e. the black type) is exactly the same as the red type on the 'early', red and white stock, and doesn't emanate from an MGM pressing facility.

The football star Jim Brown was the major financial backer of Way Out. He started filming The Dirty Dozen after the end of the 1965-1966 season for MGM. In order to finish the movie he refused to return from England to play for The Cleveland Browns in the 1966-67 season, effectively retiring from the sport. MGM distribution of Brown's Way Out logo was presumably a sweetener to the nascent film star and a way for the notoriously staid MGM to cash in on the soul music boom with a label fronted and guaranteed by one of the most visible and charismatic African Americans of that or any other time. Unfortunately for them Way Out couldn't unearth anything like a consistent hitmaker, probably a fault of distribution and radio-plugging shortcomings in an unfamiliar part of the market rather than a lack of quality in the actual product.

By 1969 Brown's film career was in decline as he never really replicated the success of his first film. MGM would have been keen to offload fripperies like the notoriously-difficult Brown's pet record label. The releases of this period are not MGM distributed: rather they feature the credit "BIG JIM RECORDS: A division of Way Out Ent." My contention is that in order to release Brown from his film contract part of the deal was offloading remaining physical assets like the magenta and yellow label blanks, of which there must have been a few, seeing as very few of the MGM-distributed releases of 67-69 sold in any great number.

The chaos of Brown's financial affairs might go some way to explaining the often erratic nature of the label's releases. At this time Brown was a notoriously profligate spender, gambler and high-roller. His financial affairs often lurched from feast to famine. Because of this the Way Out label continued in much the same manner, maybe explaining why some releases are plentiful, while others such as Demanding Man are decidedly scarce.

1966. Here's the listing lifted from Dave Rimmer's site

W01 - Norman Scott - Baby Don't Go / Ain't That A Heartache - 1966

the "Baby don't go" side on this is dated 1966, but the other side "Aint that a heartache" is dated 1973 (and it definitely sounds 70's), so i reckon the dates for this label are bit off

Many of these dates are incorrect, and the 'label numbers' quoted are in many cases the RCA pressing matrixes, which were assigned by the Indianapolis pressing plant, not Way Out.

Within the next few weeks I will provide a more complete Way Out/BOS discography with accurate dates and pressing variations, which I'd like to run by to see what I've missed. BOS was the Gospel offshoot of Way Out, and some of the 'missing' numbers were assigned to BOS releases.

Some of the 45s do have different pressings. Seems like the initial pressings were done at Boddie, and later by somewhere else (probably Archer in Detroit). I presume that many of you have figured out that Boddie 'numbered' their pressings using a 4 digit number with the first two digits being the year (70xx, 71xx, etc). This includes records on Boddie, Bounty, as well as the pressings for external clients (one of which would have been Way Out). Cataloging these numbered Boddies is probably the most arcane record documentation task there is. Cleveland had two very unusual small run custom pressing operations in the 60s and 70s, Boddie and PAMA. Good luck trying to find 'em!

In the case of Jesse Fishers "You're not loving a beginner", there is a Boddie press (white label) and an Archer press (red/yellow label). The EQs and mastering of the two versions is different. I prefer the red/yellow one.

I have a good hunch that the numbering series changed as different investors got involved.

More later -

George

1966. Here's the listing lifted from Dave Rimmer's site

2605 - Lou Ragland & Bandmasters - Never Let Me Go / Party At Lesters - 1964

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / I Know My Baby Loves Me - 1964

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / Last Heartbreak - 1964

2799/80 - The Springers - Last Heartbreak / Why - 1964

3359/60 - The Gaylords - Never Go Back To GA / Loose Beat - 196?

5564 - Joan Bias - I Don't Know What's Right Any More / Crazy Over You - 196?

5696 - The Springers - You Can Laugh / It's Been A Long Time - 1965

1966 - Verna & Bob - More Soul / I'm In Love With You - 1965

W01 - Norman Scott - Baby Don't Go / Ain't That A Heartache - 1966

1047 - The Sensations - Get On Up Mama / I Won't Be Hurt - 1966

5945 - Laura Green - Don Deopo / Come Have A Drink With Me - 1966

2001 - Bobby Wade - Four Walls And One Window / Can't You Hear Me Calling - 1966

2003 - The Harmonics - Which Way / Harmonics On The Warpath - 1966

2005 - The Sensations - Gonna Step Aside / Demanding Man - 1966

2006 - Volcanic Eruption - I've Got Something Going For Me / Red Robin - 1966

? - Ben Iverson & The Hornets - Love Me / Fool's Rush In - 1967

4957 - Lester Johnson & The Hornets - Wedding Day / Jamaica Farewell - 1967

5947 - The Sensations - Too Shy / Please Baby, Please - 1967

5696 - The Springers - It's Been A Long Time / You Can Laugh - 1967

2669 - The Springers - I Know My Baby Loves Me So / I Know Why - 1967

2699 - The Springers - I Know Why / Last Heartbreak - 1967

1000 - The Sensations - Gotta Find Myself Another Girl / Lonely World - 1968

1001 - The Soul Notes - Don't Make Me Beg / How Long Will It Last - 1968

1002 - Fred Towles - Too Much Monkey Business / Part 2 - 1968

1003 - The Sensations - Oh / I Guess That's Life - 1968

1004 - Fred Towles & The Jacksonians - Hook It To The Mule / Inst. - 1969

1005 - The Sensations - It's A New Day / Two Can Make It - 1969

1006 - The Soul Notes - How Long Will It Last / I Got Everything I Need - 1969

1051 - The Soul Notes - How Long Will It Last / Don't Make Me Bag - 1969

011 - The Boss Singers - My God On High / So Many Years - 1970

101 - Ruby Carter & The Exceptional Three - Unlucky Girl / What About Me - 1971

103 - Bobby Wade - I'm In Love With You / Down Here On The Ground - 1971

104 - Jesse Fisher - You're Not Loving A Beginner / Waiting - 1971

105 - Embryo Infinity Rebirth - Let Me Tell You A Story / Walls - 1971

106 - Jesse Fisher - Why / Little John - 1971

984 - Jesse Fuller - Super Funky / Part 2 - 1972

100 - Jesse Fuller - Mr.Super Nobody / Don't Cheat On Me - 1973

Fascinating stuff. I love "You're Not Loving A Beginner", but had never heard of the so-called "original" white label/red type release until it started to be listed many years after it's Mecca heyday (1975).

I'd be very interested to know which label Ian Levine was playing it on at that time!

Edited November 28, 200816 yr by mel brat

In the case of Jesse Fishers "You're not loving a beginner", there is a Boddie press (white label) and an Archer press (red/yellow label). The EQs and mastering of the two versions is different. I prefer the red/yellow one.

Sorry, I made a mistake. Norman Scott is the record that had the two pressings at Boddie (grey label) and at Archer(?) (red/yellow). Not sure where the two Jesse Fishers were pressed. Maybe Archer and ARP. They are still different masters as I mentioned. I don't have this all sorted out yet.

- George

Edited November 28, 200816 yr by George G

I think Tony is absolutely correct regarding this point. The particular copy of The Sensations for auction is about the cleanest copy of the record I've seen, so probably worth the bucks to those wishing to upgrade to a minter. A great record into the bargain: group Northern gets no better than this double-sider in my opinion.

Something has occured to me about Way Out releases which exist on several variants of the label such as Bobby Wade I'm In Love With You and Jesse Fisher's You're Not Loving A Beginner: conventional wisdom has it that the first issue of these is on the red and white logo (as per Demanding Man), and that the other releases (grey in the case of Bobby Wade, magenta and yellow in the instance of Jesse Fisher) are later issues, carrying lesser pricetags. I wonder if this is really the case.

My theory is that the ones on the red and white logo could very well be be later pressings on remaindered blanks of the "c.1966" stock. If you think about it any record label would press on the latest, 'hip and happening' variant of its label design first, then, when stocks of this are exhausted and a 45 demands another pressing run, on its older blanks if they happen to be lying around.

Something to think about next time a red and white Jesse Fisher is offered at a price premium above the multicoloured label version.

HELLO GARETH,think jesse fisher came out on the red and white label as well.......can't be positive though?

HELLO GARETH,think jesse fisher came out on the red and white label as well.......can't be positive though?

Agree with that, I've seen and bid on one on ebay but didn't get it.

Would be interesting to know if the takes are the same or different and are the label nos different?

volcanic eruption is 2002 not 2006

Bob,

All the copies of the VE record I've seen are numbered 2006 and dated 1970. Can you provide more details on this (scan is nice..)

thanks, George

Bob,

All the copies of the VE record I've seen are numbered 2006 and dated 1970. Can you provide more details on this (scan is nice..)

thanks, George

i pulled mine out and it did say 2006 on it. Dante's webpage must be wrong.

vaguely related, but supposedly verna and rob (or at least verna) was in the group in addition to lou ragland. Their daughter emailed me and I sent her an mp3 and she said she and her mom (verna) didn't recognize the track.