Modernsoulsucks

Hey Boba I don't quite get the logic of that last post. Quantity on titles frequently turn up if you do a little digging or are lucky. The Danny Moore musta sold a few on release and others were stuck in a basement somewhere. Im not sure how many Dave and I ended up with. We had I'd estimate about 150 within a month. Im sure the pressing run went to more than that so lots of unaccounted for copies. Danny Moore was pretty rare over here and let me say that Dave told me that we were NOT the first to get to this guy. A USA "Northern" dealer had bought a few copies and sold them for big bucks. Now it may be that the guy with the 45s only had a couple when the other dealer got to him and may be that the dealer didn't think to ask if he had more elsewhere. But whatever, a few guys over here then paid a lot of money for this 45 but the source was the same. As Steve G said if you locate someone involved there's a good chance of turning up copies. I stumbled upon the Winfield Parker on P&L too. Winfield had left 5 copies in a shop in Baltimore [Roadhouse Oldies I think] and his phone number with the owner in case he sold them. It was at the time a rare modern soul 45 but Winfield had hundreds. In reply to Bearsy's question I think a lot of these 45s we pay hundreds for were around in large quantities but they disappear into collections and price does rise again. If you ask John Manship Im sure he had hundreds of Frank Dells he got from a guy in Charlotte [according to what the guy told us]. Dave Withers must have had about 150 Betty Lloyds at one time. I picked up 70 copies of that Freddie Empire and sold at £10 at the end to get rid but that's probably back up there again. I think Boba you can't really expect some of these 45s to be in the "shops" now but Im sure they were back in the 70's before guys like Anderson and Koppell started hoovering them up. I suppose "rare" doesn't actually mean in most cases only a handful pressed but difficult to locate. ROD

I have posted this before but short answer is Dave Withers and I. Got writer's name from scan of label. Massingale is an odd surname so checked Detroit phone book. Got guy's cousin or brother, forget exact relationship now. He had quite a few at first and got more in a week or so. ROD

Yes now you mention it. It's the little riff when Holman 45 starts. I guess there's only so many combination of notes you can use writing a tune and maybe it's just coincidence that your example and mine have a riff in common but can't help thinking that Northern 45s are extremely catchy and whose to say these writers/composers didn't get to hear things on the radio that stuck in their heads. Im not saying they copied but it was just there. Im certain I've got the odd 45 where you can hear bits of old standards such as Mary Wells "Dear Lover" ,the mid instr break is deffo something I recognise and Im sure another uses "Theme from a Summer Place" as the mid break. Can't remember which one though. Simon will recall "Summer Place" . He's probably still got the 70's disco version they used to play at the Mecca. It coulda been a re-working by Percy Faith. I quite liked it!! ROD

Obviously Mark my wedding tackle is secure as it would be hard to misplace such a large array. Im very very pleased with my haircut which is why I've agreed to babysit the Antichrist this Friday whilst you and Jackie have a night out. I think social workers term this small break "Respite". He does look a little cherub but then so did Charles Manson at his age. Make sure he's heavily sedated and all straps are secure please. Simon, Im sure the Saint had a productive time in France as his French is limited to "Voulez-vous couche avec moir ce soire" which he picked up from having the Nanette Workman modern soul version of Labelle 45. Im sure even he can understand "Non, Im washing my book tonight cos my cat died [in French of course!!]. It must be difficult for him. "Shall we have sex tonight,darling" and he whips out his Grapevine re-issue. Back on topic. Have either of you noticed the similarity in the two tracks I mentioned or have neither of you got any good 45s. ROD

Right I got the Remarkables today and have compared with Barbara English and whilst not quite as similar as I remember the catchy instr. intro at beginning of English 45 does seem to also be almost identical to parts of the Remarkables. Different writers,producers etc. Fishing was awful. Nothing bigger than a couple of ounces and I lost my wedding ring. My wife says that this does not mean we are now divorced so every cloud doesn't have a silver lining. Simon, I noticed Soulful Saint on "Mastermind" thread. Where was he when I needed a virgin. ROD

No Steve, it's "The love I saw..." credited to Smokey and Miracles in USA too. I have it in front of me. "I second that..." was released after "The love I saw.." and then "More love" in both countries. He was awful wasn't he. I'd have done better answering questions on modern soul but of course I would have "passed" on all of them just as a matter of principle. ROD

Im in a good mood cos I plan on going fishing tomorrow. Only fly in the ointment is that the wife says she may come. She usually just ridicules my efforts. I've explained to her that most fisherman have had the hook in the back of their shirt or their line wrapped around a tree. OK, at the exact same time does take some doing. And how was I to know that my Ralph Lauren glasses would end up in the lake and cost me £210 to replace. A mistake anybody could make. Frankly comments such as "That's not very big" and "It's only a tiddler" I can do without as I get enough of that in the bedroom. ROD

what about that LP Northern Soul 2007 Simon if you play it backwards besides the usual Black Mass incantations, you can clearly hear Levine say that at least he found a use for those tracks Take That turned down. I've just checked again and it is there, but unfortunately I've also raised Beelzebub who is demanding an offering. Cuppa tea and a hobnob will hopefully suffice. What about Barbara English "Sitting in the corner" and Remarkables "Easily misled". Got the latter arriving soon and will put on my anal retentive collector hat and see if there's any connection between the two. Im off. He wants a virgin. fat chance in Clitheroe!! ROD

"Simon like i told you on Saturday, modern soul is created by one bloke sitting at a computer and just adding different sounds as he goes along" So Bearsy has stumbled upon the awful truth. I did in fact track the guy down back in 1993. His name is Cyrus D. Smallpecker and he's a fat balding used car salesman from Ohio with as he said a finger on the pulse of what fat balding used car salesmen in the UK want to hear. As you'd expect he lived with his mother,had never had a girlfriend and had serious hygeine problems. His mother had tried to strangle him at birth but he'd hastily knocked up a tune and lulled her to sleep so he could make good his escape. When I met him he was in the final stages of quality control on his latest opus. This entailed borrowing his mother's handbag and if he was moved to dance around it, then he knew he had a winner. As I whipped out my AK-47, just one of two fearsome weapons I have upon my person, he managed to get to the decks and put a needle to the groove. When I woke up he was gone. In his haste he'd left his Frankenstein productions lying around. I of course set fire to them which explains the rarity of some modern 45s. ROD

I think Bob Mays had loads of these 3 titles at one time. He used to have a typed list in his place of stock on GW ,Wingate and Ric-Tic and he had or did have hundreds. In 79 most of those three had long gone. Think Martin Koppell got most. He did still have loads of Sunliners which is about £75 now. I bought 25 but had trouble selling so no doubt they ended up cheap in collections. Doesn't mean they were bootlegs. I have the regular issue of Tamiko Jones and it does have T1 scratched in and ZTSC matrix scratched in too. ROD

Can't see owt wrong with that. Bunch of bloody Philistines anyway American dealers. No attachment to the music other than dollar signs and now they're all long-time fans and experts. Pity there wasn't a jawbone of an ass lying around,Phil. ROD

Andy I didn't mean to criticise the running of Middleton at all but was trying to make the point that like the originator of this thread it can be just a small thing that can turn someone off a night. I guess in my case disappointment with Sam's spot. And Im sorry I can't be paying £12 admission for the wife. She'll expect it every year. ROD

So £275 it is then Mark. ROD

I've never even heard of Leon Bryant nor the De-Lite label!! Actually I don't remember going to the Clifton Hall. Is that Rotherham? Are you sure it was me? Happy is not an adjective used to describe me by that many people I know. ROD

Wish someone had offered me that option when I went to Middleton back last September and heard Sam's spot. Never been back since. For £24 for the two of us I wanna hear something a bit better than "house/garage" or whatever it's called plus mainly oldies that I used to pay a couple of quid to hear. Realise Im in a minority of one here so I hope the promoter doesn't take this criticism too seriously but it does illustrate that there's always some awkward bugger somewhere that you can't please ROD

Im just wondering if this thread is not an oversimplification to explain falling attendances. I would have thought there's many individual reasons why numbers maybe dropping although last time I went out, Burnley allnighter didn't seem to have that particular problem. I guess that would bear out what Mr.Dyson is saying that there will always be an audience for "upfront" sets, although I tend to see those nights as really just the continuation of what Northern was once all about. Choice is not a bad thing and I've no idea if there are more nights on now than ever before. Seemed to be an awful lot back when Black Echoes used to publish what was on. I suppose I am one of those who have stopped going now but it's nothing to do with too many venues. The music was always more appealing than the scene. Nowadays for two of us you're talking at least £50 at an allnighter with admission,petrol,drinks and I'd rather spend that money on 45s. I used to enjoy looking through the sales boxes but can't remember last time I actually bought anything when it's usually so much cheaper on Ebay. ROD

Isn't that London 70's issue completely different... and crap!! ROD

Classic motown record Very well-known Motown 45 I grant you but Classic I think not. 1969 and listening to Velvettes,Earl Van Dyke, Elgins,Contours,,Edwin Starr,Shorty Long,Kim Weston, etc at local soul do at the Moon in Duckinfield, never heard that. Local pub same time it was on the jukebox. Can't remember ever hearing it at the Torch, Mecca, Wigan or Stafford. I guess cos it wasn't considered to have the right ingredients, and I wasn't the only person with that opinion obviously, hence it's lack of exposure up till now. Had Mick been drinking? ROD

Dave,at your age the only thing you should run is a bath. I didn't really get the feeling that collectors were getting stick but the non-original colllectors were. As you say it's their choice and has no effect on what others do. I think maybe there's two things getting slightly confused on this thread. Those who have boots and in the case of Mr.Darcy's post those who wanna be famous which seems to have got equated with boots. Im sure there's plenty who wanna be famous who can afford the originals. Again it's nowt to do with the format, just the intention of those playing them. I see your point re. M&T and it's NOT been booted. So it must be the original guys who are to blame for that then!! It's bland pop and Im amazed that Mick's lapse gave an excuse for others to spin it. I wondered why I kept seeing it on Ebay as Northern Soul. It was everything we didn't like about the way Motown was going when I got into Northern. ROD

Hi Paul, just don't remember Alan Day or Martin Ellis subscribing to the Reithian philosophy to educate and inform!! ROD

I think Mr. Moore may well have his rosy-tinted Raybans on!!! First of all it is patently untrue that someone with a box comprising pressings etc who fancies dj-ing has less interest in the actual music. I seem to remember plenty of original collectors who were around and aren't anymore. So much for their passion and committment!! Also the djs and promoters of "yore" were not all in it with the purpose of expanding their knowledge base if my memories of the Torch are anything to go by. I think it was more to do with having a good time and what was happening in Philly didn't really come into it. History and legacy were extremely hazy and nebulous concepts in those days. You don't have to own a box full of pressings to be a follower. There are plenty of original only jocks who don't find their own records. Can I just say John Anderson here, or Dave Raistrick or John Manship. I've found a few in my time but only cos I was fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time. A fukcin monkey can do it!! I have no huge knowledge base or interest really beyond do I like the record. What is difficult is then getting some of these "I don't play boots or cheap 45s" brigade to actually buy and have faith in the new discoveries. Nearly had to force Richard to buy Flash McKinney off me a few years back. Im sure John Manship would have tales of being turned down on 45s that have gone on to be monstrous. No one is asking people with original collections to justify themselves but there's plenty of slagging off on here of guys playing boots. They just might be not as anal-retentive as us collectors and are quite happy spending their money on other things. I am not defending here guys who puposely set out to VC their way to fame but all those fans around the country who want to do a spot at their local night with their 45s that happen to be pressings. Finally, dropping Marvin and Tammi IMO is NOT NOT a good example in my book. Pop schmaltz. And that's imaginative - do me a favour!! "Hey Rod, play me something different or left-field" It ain't gonna feature in my top 30,000!! I would agree with Dave only in that Bettye Swann, Sharon Jones and Nicle whatever deserved to be broken on the dancefloor. It's nice to see Pete Smith being taken seriously at last. ROD PS I feel I am entitled to put my views across cos I know that "....in the groove..." is on one of those Motown thingys.

Des,I thought I'd agreed with you there, my point being that it was OK in the past but no excuse to bore your audience just because you've spent all your money on the same top tunes as others and then find yourself with no back-up to rely on when the same tunes are spun on whatever format. As I said "chasing and playing the same 45s". If I wanted to dj then I don't think going out and spending vast sums on say Lenny Curtis,Salvadores or whatever and then being caught out when someone else plays a boot or an original first is the best approach. If you can afford to amass a dj spot and classic collector oldies then fine but there is a difference in the two IMO, and if you wanna make it then you gotta be ahead of the game. ROD

And another thing, next time you're stood there with Mr.Boot waiting to go on, don't treat him with disdain or as a social outcast and slap on your rarest 45 to make a point. With all tact it should be possible to maybe spin something worth peanuts in relation to the £30 he's just spent on Salvadores boot to illustrate that there's more to rare soul than just a high price tag and follow my leader. ROD

No John always said he was black Simon. Tim started this "honky" stuff off when he belatedly reviewed it in Manifesto about 3 years after we all started playing it I found this in a shop in Asheville,NC around late 80's/early 90's and sold it to Richard for £8 as it kinda fitted in with that Parker's thing he had going. Think I had a couple more too around the time that someone in Manchester area must have got. it was reasonably popular I think so I was surprised to read it's a recent play. A nice Mint promo and I was wondering why there weren't more oddball promos knocking about until about 5 years later when I went back with Alex Jones and we found the secret room which must have been blocked off previously. ROD

Unaccustomed as I am to making pertinent points I do think some of you have got just a bit hung -up on this boot/VC thing. If you like the music but would rather not spend vast sums on the originals, I can see nothing wrong with that. I take Bearsy's point about the excitement of obtaining the original and I feel exactly the same way but he admits to buying boots early on in his development and now with hindsight he says it was an empty experience. Im sure Im not the only collector on here who also started off with a mixture of formats and I can remember buying the Eddie Parker boot back when it was massive at the Torch and it was extremely pleasurable to be able to play this at home. Still looking for a Mint original if anyone can help. I also buy those 45s issued here that don't have an original US release and get as much pleasure from those as I do some elusive want arriving. I do agree that this is a rare soul scene but I'd contend that it refers to the music and not the format. As for dj-ing. If someone gets their kicks from playing boots etc as long as they sound OK and the crowd enjoys it what does it matter. I do dj occasionally Simon and those who've had the misfortune to be there can testify that I take a lot of 45s with me. If I got asked for the Kitchen Sink I'd probably have it with me!! So, someone coming on and playing an hour of boots [say 30 45s] isn't going to affect me. I try to play 45s that aren't booted anyway. I also take the point made by whoever about repitition during a night as regards Joanne Courcy but can remember in the early days when you'd hear loads of 45s like Sweet Things, Glories,Younghearts,Tempos etc played a few times a night but we didn't mind. Obviously 30-odd years on there's more tracks to go at and there's no excuse if you are boring your audience. I hope Im not wrong but I didn't think Joanne had been booted/issued. So the problem,if there is one, is not the easy availibility of boots but unimaginative djs who with all the wealth of stuff available are just chasing and playing the same 45s. However I would qualify that by saying if I'd just got a Courcy I might spin it too but I would make sure I'd not heard it on the night being hammered. So, a pretty chilled outlook there I think. What I can't fukcing stand , and Im thinking of a dj round here albeit a few years ago, who played a set comprising a mish-mash of Y2k R&B, House, old R&B, 70's, and odd 60's that were obviously all easily available, popular with their respective fan base and he'd just gone out and bought the popular tunes and thrown them altogether. It was horrendous and he went down rather well, which shows how much I know about the art of keeping the floor happy. ROD