Robbk

A kids' garage band from rural Wisconsin! I'd guess it would be Jim Kirchstein' Cuca/Night Owl operation, except that he pressed up his own demos, and they didn't look like that. He was involved in TV and radio commercials, and probably film, too. But this is most likely someone else. The names on the "Demo Record" don't ring a bell, at all. I think we're at a dead end unless someone else joins the thread or thinks of a good way to search for clues.

Are the music publishers on the non re-make songs listed. Nation was owned by Sebons Foster and their house publisher was Sebons Music. The Devotions' record on Nation had the publisher: "Chatt Lee Music" These singers don't Sound to me like The Chicago-based Devotions. In any case, I doubt that these songs were sung by The Chicago group. These are much rawer singers, off key a lot and the non-re-make songs are not very well-written, and not arranged very tightly like The Nation Devotions. Also, The Chicago group recorded in 1965. These cuts were done in '69 or '70, and don't sound like Chicago recordings. Detroit's Devotions were a female group. So we can rule them out. These are also not the New York Doo-Wop group from The 1950s. Maybe these are The Philly Devotions, before they made it big in The '70s? Except the latter had a falsetto main lead singer, and everything I heard by them sounded heavily like The Sound of Philadelphia, with heavy strings (like The Stylistics and Delfonics). I think there were a few more Devotions groups, but as I remember NONE of them sounded like this group.

There is a lot of incorrect information on The Internet. A lot of people think that Jimmy "Preacher" Ellis was the Jimmy Ellis in The Trammps. But several people say those people are mistaken, just because The preacher had a record out on "Tramp Records". I remember him very well. He was born in 1934 in Arkansas, an his family moved to Seattle where he spent his childhood. He moved to L.A. to boost his singing career. He had a rough, bluesy style of Soul singing, and was featured in regular work in a lot of different venues there, and cut a lot of records with small, indie Soul labels (a lot of one-shots and 2 record stints. he kept bouncing from label to label. I heard that the James Ellis who recorded for Salem was a local Chicagoan. He was likely several years younger than The Preacher. I think that the Jimmy Ellis who was a member of The Trammps was NOT The Preacher. I think he was the Jimmy Ellis who was born in North Carolina. Weren't The Trammps an East-Coast group, working out of Philadelphia? They were too late for me to know anything about them. But I'd bet the farm that Jimmy Preacher Ellis was not in that group. I think he was still a solo act, gigging in the Soul clubs in L.A. during the '70s. I'd bet that Jimmy Ellis of The Trammps, who was born in 1937, was the James Ellis born in North Carolina. Let's also not forget James Ellis, lead singer of The Satintones (who led on "My Beloved" and "Angel"). He was, of course, based out of Detroit. It was a very common name. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few more who were also Soul singers during the 1960s (when Half the Black population was singing in clubs and getting records made (at least demos)).

(1) That was an LP including 10 cuts from 1964, and the rest from earlier. I'm sure that Marr was not working for King in 1968, after Syd Nathan had passed away. I don't think Gene Redd, Sr. was working for King, anymore in 1968. I believe that was an LP Redd had planned to issue in 1964, but it got aborted. More than likely, IF Redd, Sr. had written the sleeve notes, they were written in 1964. If they were written in 1968, King's project manager for that LP issue could have hired either Redd, Sr. OR Redd, Jr. to write them, as a friendly gesture, or because they each knew and had previously worked with Marr. (2) I have no doubt that at least some of Motown's Funk Brothers played on the background instrumentals behind the organ playing of Marr, and Sax playing of Stitt. The entire group of Funk Brothers at Motown at any time, almost never moonlighted at the same time at Golden World or anywhere else. The Funk Brothers rarely all moonlighted the same night, jumped in a truck or bus, and drove to a rival recording studio and made up all the players on a rival Soul record company's session, like they did when they drove to Chicago to play on Jackie Wilson's "Higher and Higher". Generally, at Golden World for Ed Wingate, the players on any one session were a mixture of a few moonlighting Funk Brothers, and a few ex-Motown musicians, and/or current free-lancers who still play on some Motown sessions, but weren't Motown employees on regular salary (but rather, were paid by the session), and any others were regular Detroit session players who would later record sporadically for Motown and most of the other Detroit Soul labels. In this case, the background musician tracks behind both Marr and Stitt sound exactly the same. So, it seems that Marr's organ part and Stitt's sax part were recorded alone, and were tracked over the Wingate players' tracks.

AI told me that it was NOT Clarence (Gene) Redd, Sr. that brought Hank Marr and Sonny Stitt to Ed Wingate's Detroit record company, as he was still working as A&R Man for King Records; but rather, it was his son, Gene Redd, Jr. who arranged that deal, as HE was the one who worked with Soul Music at that time, and already had the connection with Wingate. So it seems that Redd, Jr. met Hank Marr at King/Federal, through his father's having been Marr's producer. Redd Sr. had been a Trumpet and Vibes player with Cootie Williams' Band starting in the early 1940s, and Earl Bostic's band in the late 1940s and beginning of the 1950s (who had recorded for King Records). He became a chief Jazz and R&B producer and A&R Man for KIng/Federal/DeLuxe Records in the early 1950s. Redd Jr. must have met Stitt through Hank Marr, as I don't recall Stitt having ever recorded for King. But this is not absolutely certain, as the AI program has made guesses using perfect mathematical logic and ALL the "evidence" available on The Internet, to infer the best logical conclusion, and IF it deems that the amount of that "evidence" is overwhelming that the odds are extremely in favour of the logical conclusion being "true", it will come to a conclusion that is actually only an educated guess. I gave AI the leading information about Gene Redd, Sr. and Gene Redd, Jr, to guide them towards finding out the answer to my question of which of those 2 men brought Hank Marr and Sonny Stitt to Ed Wingate's Detroit record company, and so, got their answer couched by my question's lead. They inferred that it had to be Redd, Jr., because Wingate produced Soul Music in 1965-66, and Redd, Sr. was stillb A&R Man at King at that time (which may or not have been true (but THAT "fact" might also been inferred, because the information of when Redd, Sr, stopped working for King might not have been easily available on The Internet. I have caught AI being wrong several times when it had to take a best guess based on what it considered enough (overwhelming) evidence to come to that logical conclusion. The only way we can know for sure is to see official documentation, or testimony from someone who was involved, or present at the time, or was told by someone involved, and that is also corroborated by another person told the same.

Jimmy "Okera" Hightower was a Detroiter, who had been a member of Detroit's Combinations, who had recorded for Reverend James Hendrix's Carrie Records, and Combination, Inc. on Detroit's Stacey and Solid Rock Records, and as a solo artist, Johnnie Mae Matthews' Bon Records and Armen Boladian's Westbound Records in Detroit. But his voice sounds distinctively different from New York's Bobby Moore's voice (who seems to have been The Appointments' main lead singer, on all but one song, whose lead seems to have been a Gospel lead singer, whose voice sounds like a different J. Hightower, Gospel singer, James Hightower, whose voice sounds almost exactly the same as The Appointments' lead on the secular, Gospel-style song, "Sweet Daddy". Listen to Jimmy "Okera" 's singing on his Bon and Westbound songs back-to back with The Appointments' "Sweet Daddy". I think we can rule him out, and it appears that The Appointments were a N.Y. Metro group, featuring Bobby Moore, which may,or may not have also had James Hightower as a member, or Redd just tossed a Gospel Specials' cut on the flip of his Dart Records' Appointments release..

I wonder about that "secular" Gospel cut on one side of the Dart record - whether or not that side's songwriter, and perhaps lead singer on that cut, was actually James Hightower of The Gospel Specials. The 2 sides seem to have no connection (as if Redd just threw a recording of The Gospel Specials (wanting to try out making a secular record) on the flip because he didn't have another Appointments' cut to use there. I also wonder if The Appointments weren't just a morphed version of The Fourmosts, containing other members of that group besides Moore?

Moore was the main writer on The Appointments' De-Lite record, too. And it sounds like the group's lead singer on those songs is also that same person. Here is the "A" side, "I Saw You There":

As pointed out to me by Blackpoolsoul, R&B Historian, Marv Goldberg's discography and history of Bobby Moore and The Four Mosts mention Moore's connection with The Fiestas, produced by Gene Redd for Old Town Records. The article only goes up to 1966. And that is why The Appointments aren't in his article or discography. Marv and I were good friends from the early 1960s onward. We were both big fans of US Blues, Jazz and R&B from the mid 1930s through the beginning of the '60s, back in the day. But, isn't it obvious, now, that the B. Moore who wrote almost all The Appointments' songs (He wrote their De-Lite songs, too) and their group's main lead singer that has the same voice as New York's Bobby Moore, and The Four Mosts (Fourmost, Formost, Fourmosts)'s lead singer, and their groups long association with Gene Redd at Old Town, Redd/Red Coach, Dart, and De-Lite Records must be the Same Bobby Moore as in Gene Redd's Appointments. Those similarities are too much to be a coincidence. I am convinced that New York's and The Fiestas' and Four Mosts' Bobby Moore was the lead singer, main songwriter, and creative leader of The Appointments.

The instrumentals don't sound like Detroit recordings to me. They sound more like Redd's normal New York recordings, as far as the individual players and arrangements, and acoustics of the recording rooms. And the sound of the Redd Coach and Dart recordings (from 1969 and 1970), sound just like those years, which were after Redd left Detroit for good. I never saw any reference to him recording in Detroit after 1966. Also, in 1969 and 1970, Redd had production and distribution deals with Chess in Chicago. He did record some of his productions in Chicago (Like Tommy & Cleve). But, The Appointments cuts sound like New York to me. I believe most, if not all his Redd Coach cuts were made in New York. And weren't his De-Lite cuts made there, too?

Here's Bobby Moore leading The Fourmost singing "You GotTo Live For Yourself" from the late '60s on Fantasy Records. Moore sounds VERY like the lead on The 1969 Appointments record on Redd Coach (written by B. Moore): It was probably the last recording he made before hooking up with Redd, Jr.

Here's the flip side of the Dart record, written by B. Moore and Gene Redd, Jr.. This lead also sounds like New York's Bobby Moore - a similar voice to him on the Kay-O and Red Bird, and Redd Coach records. So, I think it's a good bet that Bobby Moore was a group member and the usual lead of The Appointments. Furthermore, BMI has no record of Redd writing these songs. I think Moore and Hightower gave up half the writer residual rights to Redd for his recording their group and songs and getting them distributed nationally by Chess Records. And, despite Redd's having his publishing company, Stephanye Music listed as the publisher on the Redd Coach record, the songs were listed under Chevis Music (Chess' publisher). So, he gave that up to get them distributed nationally.

Also compare James Hightower's lead on "God's Loving Power" first recorded in the late 1960s, or re- recorded in the early '70s, to the lead on The Appointments' very Gospel-sounding "Sweet Daddy' on Dart Records in 1969: I have the feeling Hightower was the songwriter on The Appointments' Sweet Daddy", and maybe his Gospel group was Redd's 2nd Appointments group, or Hightower was a 2nd lead singer for Redd's group, especially when they recorded secular songs in The Gospel style.

I keep playing Bobby Moore's Kay-O record back-to back with The Appointments' "Keep Me", and I'm convinced that Moore was the lead singer of Gene Redd's Redd Coach Appointments group. The two voices have the same familial tone, albeit The Kay-O Moore is singing at a slightly higher register in The Jobete song. Listen and compare them: I also played Moore's Red Bird "It Was a Lie", which is sung in a closer register to "Keep Me", back to Back many times. I'm even more convinced that Moore was The lead singer of Redd's Red Coach Appointments: Play them back to back and compare.

I always thought they were a New York/New Jersey Metro Area group. I thought I had seen a late '60s venue advert with them on the bill. They sang "Keep Away" on Gene Redd's Redd Coach Records #732. They also had a record out on Dart Records. Maybe B. Moore was New York's Bobby Moore, who sang that Jobete Music song, "I Carefully Checked Your Heart" on Kay-O Records, and "It Was a Lie" on Red Bird. Maybe he was one of their group members - even the lead on this record? They also sang "Sweet Daddy" on Dart Records, which I believe Redd leased to, or at least had distributed by Chess. I think "J. Hightower" was James Hightower, the Gospel singer. Maybe HE was the other lead singer of the group. This lead sounds like him leading his Gospel group, The Gospel Specials. This lead sounds deeper and has a very different tone from that of the lead on The Redd Coach record. THAT lead sounds like he COULD possibly be New York's Bobby Moore. The lead on "Keep Away" sounds very much like Bobby Moore, the lead of The Fourmosts, and could be the "B. Moore" who co-wrote "Keep Away" with Redd.

Both Jam and Art were owned by Johnnie Mae Matthews, and local/regional Detroit labels. Yes, ATCO was the national release, however, it didn't have a lot of sales. Jam was issued first, then, I believe the ATCO national release came next. And, If I remember correctly, the Art Records release was a re-issue, some years later. I don't remember seeing it until the early 1970s.

Rod: The tape of "(He's Got) Honey Love" that I sent you was The Velvelettes' version, with Cal Gill on lead. I'm sure it wasn't The Sandra Tilley lead Velvelettes' version, or the Martha and The Vandellas' version. I think that it's more likely that the higher-pitched version was Cal Gill's lead version, because that was the one circulating among Soulies, probably from carvers made from your copy of the tape. I don't remember outside people even knowing about the Sandra Tilley lead version, as the 10 inch acetate that it was on hadn't yet been sold on auction back in the early '80s. What The OP describes is probably Cal's version, sped up a bit. I doubt that she actually sang it while holding her nostrils closed. It would have sounded too nasal and unnatural, and we wouldn't have liked it. Do you recall which DJ's played it? Maybe you can ask them if they sped it up. Although, I don't think speeding it up would have helped make it a better dance beat. It was already set at a pretty good tempo.

Just as I suspected. It must have been one of The Velvelettes' versions, sped up a bit. Maybe Sandra Tilley on lead? Cal Gill's voice is more recognisable.

These 2 groups look familiar, but I can't place them at the moment. But I would guess those are 1950s groups, I'd characterize as R&B groups, rather than "Soul groups". But, I'm sure they lasted into the early, and, perhaps the middle 1960s. This group IS The Volumes!

I've never seen nor heard of any Supremes' version of that. I only know of The Vandellas and Velvelettes' version. Maybe it sounded high enough to be Diane Ross because it was recorded at a sightly higher speed (done by a US Supremes'/Ross fan, or an NS fan/DJ)??? Or, maybe it was just an unreleased Supremes' version that only was released on Digital 1966 or 1967(perhaps never issued on anything because its production was only partial (never finished), or was deemed not a good enough take? I don't recall ever labelling that song being sung by The Supremes. I know Diane Ross' voice very well, I don't like her singing at all. I can't stand her shrill voice. I'd remember hearing a Supremes' version of that song.

Thanks. I remember having seen that record several times in the past. I just listened to both sides on You Tube and both sides sound, to me, not at all like Detroit recordings. I don't hear any Detroit players, or the tell-tale acoustic sounds of the mid-to-late 1960s Detroit usual moist-used recording studios. We have no way of knowing for sure, but my best guess is that Raynoma and Gino got a production deal with Crazy Horse in 1968, and Raynoma and Gino went out To LA to join Eddie to record them. There's no real evidence that Eddie and Ray's masters were cut in Detroit as late as 1968. But, we know that Miss Ray returned to Detroit in late 1966. But, I haven't heard or read that Eddie did any recording in Detroit. I guess it's also possible that they brought Gino to DC to record him in '66, and only got the masters deal with newly-founded Crazy Horse in 1968? Maybe Eddie Joined Raynoma in Detroit in '68 and produced it. It's also possible that Eddie joined the pair in Detroit and recorded those two cuts there. But, I just don't believe that it was a Detroit production, based on the sound of Gino's 2 cuts. No way to know, unless we find some evidence.

I agree that it would have been extremely unlikely that Frances Nero would have broken her Motown contract to go to D.C. to record with Eddie and Raynoma. And, I knew Gino was with Golden World in 1965-'66. Does anyone know where in Detroit they'd have recorded Frances and Gino in 1967 or 1968? (United Sound, Sidra, Magic City? - And know who else would have been involved (arranger, financier, etc.) Mike Terry, Ollie McLaughlin, Pied Piper, Dave Hamilton, Don Davis? Was Crazy Horse Records a currently operating Soul music label in the late 1960s, or just a re-issue or bootleg label that released previously unissued master tapes of defunct labels or independent producers?

I should have answered these questions months ago. (1) Not just God, but there are still many people around that remember well who was playing and singing what in The Black Community's nightclubs between 1955 and 1963. The best of the clubs had the bigger stars in each genre of The Black Community's singers of all genres, musicians (bands) of all genres at various times. You can find out from venue advertising posters from those times, and club adverts on radio record charts, and listening to radio show recorded checks. Of course many of the smaller, local neighbourhood clubs specialised in artists from a smaller variety of genres. There were clubs that specialised in Jazz, and Pop artists (orchestras/bands and featured single artists, and clubs that specialised in City Blues and Bluesey-Jazz/R&B, you got to hear Gospel in Church, but the Gospel singers who wished to moonlight in the secular music market sang in the neighbourhood clubs that featured local and lesser nationally-known artists, who featured music from the various different genres. Of course many of the nightclubs also featured comedians and other types of entertainers, too. (2) You can figure out what types of artists and what songs were sung or played in the clubs by having a vast knowledge of what records by Black artists were out during those times, and which ones charted. What we don't know about today would still be represented by the records that still exist today, including demos of records that were never sold commercially, or only sold in the few hundreds, locally. Of course those sources wouldn't be perfect, because there were some artists who never had charted hits, but still were popular, and always got work in the local clubs, like Billy Watkins in L.A. , Gino Washington, in Detroit, who although he did have one big hit, he lasted on the nightclub circuit for many more years than that hit would warrant, Billy MacGregor in Chicago, etc. But for most of them, the rare R&B and Soul collector has several records by them, and they are well known. So, I don't think you'd be missing many of the songs that would have been played and sung in the clubs IF you'd become an expert on the records produced by Black artists between 1955 and 1963, as much as the expert Soulies know from the 1965-1974 period. (3) You can find out how some of them sounded and how they looked from watching 1950s and early '60 films that included scenes in such Ghetto nightclubs. In addition to national popular films, there were also still some music-themed films made by Black producers made especially for Black audiences being made in the early 1950s, and they would give you an idea of what style music was still being played in them. You could also listen to recorded radio programs recording shows on club dates. Otherwise, I can't help you with this one, because, even if you hear the studio recording of the song on a commercial record, the artist playing or singing the song does it in a more raw, spontaneous, less polished version, that is very different from what was produced in the studio. As for me, especially for R&B Group Harmony and highly orchestrated Soul, I very often like the polished studio version better, but not always (especially Blues, Jazz, and Gospel music, I found the live versions often better).

I'd guess that Rojac's Jack Taylor is an East Coast person, and Detroit Sound and Tay's Taylor was a Detroiter. But I've been wrong, before, using that logic and no proof. So, I guess it remains an interesting question until definitive proof, either way, comes to light.

I'm sorry, my octogenarian memory tricked me into remembering Chance's Curtom-Distributed record on the Thomas label, as being on it's parent label, Curtom.