Robbk

I have about 35 USA records, almost all Black artists (other than Mike Tomesetti). So, I don't have enough to find out which records were released out of sequence. But, I've worked enough with Motown, and my own Airwave Records, and researched enough on many R&B and Soul indie labels to know that if a record company label has 20+ issues, there is BOUND to be at least one or two instances when a record was assigned a catalogue number, and given a tentative release date, and that some problems came up later to delay that release, and release other issues before it. So, if you're asking if THAT release could potentially have come out in an order different from the assigned catalogue numbers, then I'd answer in a resounding YES. If you ask me if that record definitely was released out of order of the assigned USA catalogue numbers, then I'd have to say "I don't know". I don't have the official release dates of USA 854, 862, 863 and 864. And, unfortunately, I couldn't tell you where to go to find out that information. I would take Carole's word for the order that she remembers them being released (at least when the real effort and marketing push occurred). Artists are not often told about aborted releases that are cut off before any significant sales action occurs. So, there could have been an early, aborted release, and later pressings that came using the same label design, stampers, and even pressing numbers as the aborted run, so records from the 2 runs can't be distinguished. We know that in the cases of aborted releases, when the real, pushed release came later, as well as aborted releases, about which the artist was never informed, and when a later, real pushed release never occurred, the artist never knew their record was even pressed up, or had DJ copies, issued and distributed, or even a few sales of store-stockers from stores. So, Carole could be remembering correctly. But there could be 2 or 3 different possible scenarios, even assuming her memory is correct.

I never got "into Northern Soul". Rather it came to me. I was already a Soul fan and R&B and Soul record collector in Canada and, later, USA. People like Tim Ashibende, Simon Soussan, Nev Wherry, Bob "Larry" Wagner, Martin Koppel, Dave Moore, Rod Shard and Dave Withers were referred to me. My Dutch parents had long liked Jazz, Jazzy Big Band, City Blues, Country Blues, and early R&B, and I used to listen to their 78s (as radio in The Midwest of Canada was all hickey C&W music). We used to visit family in Chicago, regularly and they lived in South Chicago (half Black at the time-late '40s and early '50s), and my uncles had stores on The South Side (Ghetto). I learned to love their music. I started collecting R&B, Blues and Jazz music in 1953, and added Soul whenever you define Soul music as starting. To us, it was just the music that was played on the radio and at parties at the time. We moved to South Chicago in 1959, and my father bought a store on The South Side. So, I became a "Ghetto Child". So, I was an R&B, Blues, Gospel, and Jazz fan. And when R&B transitioned to "Soul" I was right there. I moved to L.A. for University in 1965, My parents followed me there in 1966, and my father bought a grocery store in The South L.A. Ghetto. I worked there while attending university, and also did part-time work for John Dolphin's 3 "Dolphin's of Hollywood" stores, and combed The Ghetto for good Soul Records (as I had previously done in Chicago, and on weekend trips to Detroit). After that, I moved to Holland in 1972 for part year (and I've been there for 4 to 9 months per year, ever since). I worked as a consultant for Motown from 1975-1980 on a few vault release projects, and was a partner in L.A.'s Airwave Records from 1980-85. So, after being contacted by Brit NS record dealers and DJs in the mid-to-late '70s, I was sending NS records to The UK. I started visiting there once or twice each year on my way between Holland and Canada and L.A. I attended some nighters and other do's, mainly in Lancashire. I used to visit John Anderson and Johnny Manship, and even look for records in London, Manchester, Newcastle and York. I'm a member of this forum, as I'm an historian and archivist of R&B and Soul music (especially concentrating on Detroit and Chicago productions). And this site is one of the few places to discuss with knowledgeable people, Soul music, record labels, pressing plants, recording studios and record companies, songwriters, music publishers, etc. I've learned a lot here, comparing notes with other fans and collectors, and sharing knowledge. This forum has brought me a lot of "pen friends" and a lot of pleasure and entertainment in my old age.

Thanks for mentioning his Columbus days. I finally found a website that had the entire history of The 4 Pharaohs correct, stating that Bobby Taylor was one of the original members starting in high school, and was with them their first 2 years, from mid 1957-mid 1959. So, he was on their first 6 recorded songs on Esta and Ransom and the re-issue on Paradise. It's terrible how much misinformation exists on The internet, listing the four original members without Bobby, and mentioning he was from Baltimore and sang there and DC, and with groups in New York, but never mentioning that he lived in Ohio, and went to high school there, and that he sang with The 4 Pharaohs.

I still have some doubts about Ronnie and Bobby Taylor's period with The 4 Pharaohs - at the very least, doubting that they ever recorded with them. Esteemed music journalist and R&B group chronicler, Marv Goldberg, interviewed former lead singer, Morris Wade, and chronicled the group's history, without ever mentioning The Taylor Brothers. He listed Morris Wade, Ronald Wilson, George Smith, and Robert Lowery as the original members on all Esta, Ransome, Ranson and Nanc recordings, and also talked about their gigging days during 1961-63, between their last recordings for Howard Ransom(Esta/Ransom/Ranson) and Syd Nathan(Federal) in Ohio, and their visit to L.A. to record for Ransom again, as The Egyptian Kings in 1963 (for Nanc Records). He talked about George Smith leaving the group and Harold Smith, being added as Pharaoh, as well as Paul Moore and Leo Blakely singing in the group after 1963. But never mentioned the Taylors. I know that Bobby sang with a few New York R&B groups before moving west. He may have sung for some months with The 4 Pharaohs during 1962. But that's likely all. I really doubt that he recorded with them.

And, sadly, that's one of the main reasons that Berry Gordy never got Jackie to sign with Motown.

I've always liked Robert Bateman's Correc-Tone' recorded version better. Although Bateman did good jobs also with both Luther Ingram and Wilson Pickett. The former sounds more like a Motown recording than the other two. I assume that he had the Ingram version recorded in New York, probably using Richard T's band. It sounds like Bridges' version was recorded in Correc-Tone's studio, with the usual Motown session players. The vocals are all good.

I thought I remember seeing "They Say" on a Nosnibor discography. But, maybe that was this same issue, and the discographer just assumed it was a Nosnibor release? I would guess these "personal" pressings made at Rite would have been smaller runs, and therefore, would be significantly rarer (and thus, more valuable - IF they are good quality songs and singing (which I would guess is true - given that the early efforts by artists are often that person's more inspired, and so, 'better' to a lot of listeners). I usually like the early work of most artists best.

Yes, The Bobby Byrd who formed The Flames in 1949, who later became The Hollywood Flames. Interesting that James Brown's backing group, with the OTHER Bobby Byrd, was called The famous FLAMES. Enough coincidence to cause some confusion. But, it was total coincidence, as one group was in L.A. and one in Georgia, and both Bobby Byrds' names were never prominent nor in the public's view at the same time. The Hollywood Flames were gone by late 1966, and Byrd had been out of the group for a few years, before Brown allowed HIS Bobby Byrd to "come out a bit from under his own shadow".

A little more confusion for US Soul collectors who were baseball fans: There was a baseball player named Lou Johnson (nicknamed "Sweet Lou" - for his sweet swing with the bat? - or was it his sweet singing voice?). He played for The Chicago Cubs and Los Angeles Dodgers in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Because Lee Maye and a couple other baseball players were also professional singers, Sweet Lou was also often confused with Big Top's Lou Johnson. Lee Maye would record and take singing gigs mostly during the baseball offseason. But during rare 3-day breaks between games, he'd sometimes leave the team to do some music recording (With a group, or solo). I saw a recording of baseball's Sweet Lou Johnson singing, one time, so I know he could sing. I don't think he ever went pro, however.

Wasn't Lou Johnson from The Greater New York/New Jersey/Connecticut Area? As far as I remember, L.V.Johnson was a Chicago artist. They certainly were 2 different people. Lou Johnson of Big Top, Big Hill and Hilltop Records was much older than L.V. (5+ years).

And then, it can be changed back to something incorrect (just as "facts" can in Wikipedia)! The "Information Age" is not 100 % a good thing.

What's going to happen when all of us who lived during that time will be gone. Who will be able to correct these ridiculous errors? If such errors are made only 50 years later, how much of a realistic idea do we have about what really happened in ancient Sumeria? In 100 years, "Ancient Alien Theory" will be accepted history, and Erich Von Däniken will be a revered expert historian!!!

They are right. Top photo: Frank Wilson on piano, other man is Hal Davis. Middle photo: Marc Gordon on left, Hal Davis on right of Marvin.

Thanks. Nice to see a music thread to which I can contribute, for a change. Sadly, 95% of my notifications of action on these fora in the last several weeks has been for the "Show Your Great Photos" thread. I guess a large portion of our regular posters are enjoying their holidays. As I dwell in 5 homes in 5 different countries every year, roaming from place to place like a Gypsy, I don't take holiday vacation trips. So, I poke my head in here almost every day, after arriving at my next house or flat. That's because, in each case, I'm home again, and get back into my normal routine after the usual 2 days of welcoming parties from my family and friends in each place.

Yes, Bobby Relf sang lead for several groups in the early 1950s, many for John Dolphin's labels (Recorded in Hollywood, Lucky, Cash, Money) as well as Leon Rene's Class, Dot, and a bunch of L.A. labels. If I remember correctly, he went to Fremont High School with several other singers, where many of the big early South Central artists lived. The other big schools for talent were Manual Arts and Jordan H.S. Bobby was a sweet singer in the early '50s (a lot of ballads sung in the Jesse Belvin style). He started as lead of his first group, The Laurels. He also later sang with The Crescendoes, the Upfronts, Valentino and the Lovers (Donna Records) The Hollywood Flames and Bobby Day and the Satellites. He also sang solo as Bobby Valentino, and Bobby Garrett. Throughout the 1950s, members of many of the L.A. R&B recording and appearing groups were virtually interchangeable. Singers like Gaynel Hodge, Jesse Belvin, Bobby Day, Bobby Relf and many others could end up recording stray songs with other groups because that group had a singer missing, and they were at the same recording studio that day. Also, competition for jobs at venues was keen, so many singers were regular members of two, and sometimes even 3 groups at the same time, while also accepting solo gigs and also getting background singing work in the studios as much as possible.

This is all quite puzzling. Sometimes companies had small staff, just working on the fly, with one arm not knowing what the other was doing. There were lots of ad-hoc actions and people not really knowing what they were doing. Imperial had Lew Chudd and only a few workers handling all of Imperials duties before they were bought out by Liberty Records. Just like Tamla(Motown), Chess, VJ, Modern, Aladdin, Specialty, etc. they were single entrepeneur, or family-owned business with a handful of workers handling all the various duties. And most were highly unorganised. No surprise that so many errors were made and there was so much inconsistency in policies and actions, and how the labels and company representations were.

I'm not with my US 45s now, so I can't check. I know I have some with the X, from within the range of about 5400-5900 series. The Xs appeared both on designated DJ issues as well as on full-coloured store stockers. I don't remember the Xs appearing on both sides, so I always assumed that the X stood for the "hit" or "play" side, as the small marking (diamond) seemed to indicate the NON-hit side on US Decca/Coral/Brunswick 45s. But I never had that explained to my satisfaction. So, I'll be curious to find out the real answer.

They are both original, from different pressing plants. I think that the top one is the Chicago (Midwest) pressing, and the bottom was pressed in L.A. (West Coast).

What if they sang "The Same Thing"? Nice to see the young'uns listening to an accomplished group singing real music, for a change.

Louvain did not remember any additional details about Jean Banks more than I did, and unfortunately, Banks' Grandson, Christian Parkman, never answered my message.

Sorry! I'm even losing long term memory now. It's quite a bit longer than the drive I used to take from the Chicago south suburbs to Detroit 2 Saturdays a month, which was over 3.7 hours. I don't know why I remembered Terre Haute be so much farther north than it really is. It's actually in the southern half of Indiana. But, it's still reasonably close to both Chicago and Detroit for truck deliveries. Americans think nothing of driving 350 miles.

The "C" probably stands for Chicago, as records pressed at Terre Haute were Mastered at Columbia's Chicago studio, given that the "T" for Terre Haute was also present on the record.

It WAS a good seller. But, both the gray and pink pressings have a ZTSC code, indicating they were pressed in Columbia's Terre Haute, Indiana plant, which is pretty darn close to both Detroit AND Chicago (I'd guess less than 2 hours by truck). The particular deal that Don Davis had with Columbia, and their quality of pressing and mastering probably meant more to Revilot (Don & LeBaron) than the small shipping cost. On the other hand, knowing what I know about how fast styrene wears, I might have chosen ARP and gone local. On the OTHER hand, the styrene was probably cheaper, and may have saved them money there. That's a question for Don or LeBaron. But, sadly, one they can't answer. What do you mean by "Columbia press more locally?" They didn't have a plant in Detroit. They were close to both Detroit and Chicago, and had a New York plant. Seems to me they were pretty well located to compete with RCA. What other major had better pressing locations?

None of them were pressed in Detroit. They were all pressed at Columbia's Terre Haute, Indiana plant. Yes, it makes sense that the gray ones were first. I only saw the pink ones in Chicago and L.A. So, maybe the grays were distributed only in Detroit, and the pinks elsewhere.

Maybe Columbia Terre Haute ran out of pink paper near the end of the first print run? I've seen enough of the gray ones to indicate that they don't represent a small, test run. Running out of a certain coloured paper and using another random colour has been mentioned by pressing plant personnel as the reason for that several times.