Excerpt from an article in the New York Blade

"Shapiro ties in two disparate strains of music that together became the prototype of the disco sound: Motown and Northern Soul, which originated in the hardscrabble coal counties of Northern England (and influenced the Beatles). "

I totally agree that disco influenced the Beatles but at odds to see the connection between disco, motown and northern. Throwing it over to the forum - can someone assist...

I would say that all dance records were released to be played in a Disco and as such are Disco records, Soulies seem to forget that and have a real bad time with the term Disco, All the records we love and hold dear, were all made to be danced to and sell to make the artists money, and be played in a disco. We tend to pick the ones that diddnt make it, for What ever reason, Lack of exposure, poor management, etc, etc,

I would arguee that there is most defently a link with Motown Northern & Disco

and up to the presant day, It is all dance music and each decade seems too adapt it to its own taste and the technolagy available at the time. Disco Has a liniage go back to the slaves, gospal,Jass R&B, Soul, Funk, Disco, To the presant day R&B

Hip Hop / Rap. We just seem to aprechate the 60s 70s bit and call it Northern.

I first started hearing things like Dr. Love, Talk Of The Grapevine, Fortune Teller etc in 1970. I distinctly recall that they were known as Disco records - the term Northern Soul didn't really catch on till probably '73 (I'll stand corrected if my memory is playing tricks).

The first "proper" disco record that I heard - as I understand the genre - was Gloria Gaynor's Never Can Say Goodbye. There may have been others before, but the energy propelled by those splashy hi hats seemed really fresh and exciting (at least it did for a week or so!)

Plently of "Disco" records were "Northern" plays. A friend who has no interest in Northern but a big interest in Disco laughs when I tell him that records like Nine Times, Don't Leave Me This Way, On The Real Side, Centre City, The Carstairs, Salsoul Stuff ect were played as Northern, because to him they are just Disco records. And of course the 60's diehards would agree with that but for different reasons. To me the connections are very clear. Whether a 60's fan can hear the connection is a different story and quite reasonable in my eyes. Personally I love it all.

of course there's a connection, it's all the same thing in a way, just a refinement/progression of the drum beats.... james jamerson played on Rock The Boat, I'm sure there's heaps more connections, I'm just not good at remembering musicians' names

ps how are motown and northern 'disparate strains of music' - that's bullshit. stupid lazy music journalism

As for the Northern Soul/Beatles comment, I suspect he means that the Mop Tops were partly influenced by early 60's R n B records, which is true of course. But the Beatles stole from everywhere including Little Richard, The Everlys, C & W, and probably Edmondo Ross! Made it their own though didn't they?

"Shapiro ties in two disparate strains of music that together became the prototype of the disco sound: Motown and Northern Soul, which originated in the hardscrabble coal counties of Northern England (and influenced the Beatles). "

link

It reads as if Motown and Northern Soul were English-made music

As a Northern Soul youth in the mid 70's. I had an anti-disco league badge.

I saw disco as being largely a popular music culture, and Northern Soul being the exact oposite. An underground scene that rejected mainstream popularity that disco sought.

It reads as if Motown and Northern Soul were English-made music 

link

Northern Soul Is

It is the term used to describe the music we dance too It embraces music from differant genre, Records have and are still played from Rock to Pop , Disco to Funk, The majority being uptempo Soul music

I have greet trouble tring to explaine this to normal people. Car'nt belive ime doing on a soul site

ps how are motown and northern 'disparate strains of music' - that's bullshit. stupid lazy music journalism 

link

Agreed- the two cannot be seperated.

I saw disco as being largely a popular music culture, and Northern Soul being the exact opposite. An underground scene that rejected mainstream popularity that disco sought.

link

Disco was and continued to be an undersground scene. It was a Black scene (something 'Northern Soul" NEVER has been !) and a Gay scene, often at the same time. If you count Saturday Night Fever and the BeeGees as Disco then yes it was mainstream and popular. But ask the mainstream about Katmandu, John Davis, Tony Rallo,Cerrone,First Choice, Vince Monatana, Sylvester, Crown Heights Affair ect.

Excerpt from an article in the New York Blade

"Shapiro ties in two disparate strains of music that together became the prototype of the disco sound: Motown and Northern Soul, which originated in the hardscrabble coal counties of Northern England (and influenced the Beatles). "

I totally agree that disco influenced the Beatles  but at odds to see the connection between disco, motown and northern.    Throwing it over to the forum - can someone assist...

link

I assume that this a review of Pete Shapiro's new book on the history of disco where he does indeed go into a fair amount of depth about Motown's influence on disco (the Temptations particularly) and - a bit more clutching at straws here - Northern's influence (particularly that of Ian Levine who appears throughout the book). Pointing out the importance of places like Blackpool Mecca or Wigan in the 70s are fine but what influence did this have on what was basically New York gay/black/hispanic nightlife? - not much! Still it's a good book on the subject. I rated it 8/10.

The closest i ever came to the experience of places like New York's Studio 54 was the Balli Hai room at the Birmingham Locarno alldayers. Every now and again as a break from the northern in the main room me and my mates (all of us 14 years old) would step just inside the doorway and watch in awe the black guys smooching with white ladies to exotic latin sounds (in New York it was probably other guys, but this was Brum remember). I agree with the person earlier that disco was certainly an underground scene with it's own set of rules and lifestyle that equalled the exclusivity of northern.

I found this great site about westcoast clubs in the US in the late 70s and early 80s and when you read it you might think they were describing northern nights, music, drugs, dancing, all part of the scene. They even thought the lighting was important and DJs and lighting engineers were a team.

www.hyperactivemedia.com/5am/

Matt

. Pointing out the importance of places like Blackpool Mecca or Wigan in the 70s are fine but what influence did this have on what was basically New York gay/black/hispanic nightlife? - not much! Still it's a good book on the subject. I rated it 8/10.

link

The influence of Northern records is clear in nearly every one of Levine's Disco cuts, many of which were huge CLUB tracks in the States. Add in things that Sousann was doing (early Shalamar, The Simon Orchestra, Arpeggio etc) plus all the other influences- Gamble and Huff's sixties background (and therefore 'Northern' faves) all the other Philly guys like Baker, Harris, Young for instance, Stan Watson, James Carmicheal, Barry White, Fatback Band, Van McCoy- the list of artists connected with the records on the Northern scene that went on to have Disco influence is a long one. I'd like to read the book.

I would say that all dance records were released to be played in a Disco and as such are Disco records, Soulies seem to forget that and have a real bad time with the term Disco, All the records we love and hold dear, were all made to be danced to and sell to make the artists money, and be played in a disco. We tend to pick the ones that diddnt make it, for What ever reason, Lack of exposure, poor management, etc, etc,

I would arguee that there is most defently a link with Motown Northern & Disco

and up to the presant day, It is all dance music and each decade seems too adapt it to its own taste and the technolagy available at the time. Disco Has a liniage go back to the slaves, gospal,Jass R&B, Soul, Funk, Disco, To the presant day R&B

Hip Hop / Rap. We just seem to aprechate the 60s 70s bit and call it Northern.

link

I would say that all dance records were released to be played in a Disco and as such are Disco records, Soulies seem to forget that and have a real bad time with the term Disco, All the records we love and hold dear, were all made to be danced to and sell to make the artists money, and be played in a disco. We tend to pick the ones that diddnt make it, for What ever reason, Lack of exposure, poor management, etc, etc,

I would arguee that there is most defently a link with Motown Northern & Disco

and up to the presant day, It is all dance music and each decade seems too adapt it to its own taste and the technolagy available at the time. Disco Has a liniage go back to the slaves, gospal,Jass R&B, Soul, Funk, Disco, To the presant day R&B

Hip Hop / Rap. We just seem to aprechate the 60s 70s bit and call it Northern.

link

Didnt have discos in the mid 60's used to go to "Clubs"

King MOJO club

Twisted Wheel club

The link was made when some bright spark came up with the name Discoteque

and they started naming new clubs Discoteques so America was brought to

the UK once again.

But the music came first.

Another example Ronnie Scotts Club

The 100 Club

Mayfair RAF Club

Soul RnB Motown where the fore front of the music in the Uk that was taken to the masses

Cavern Club

list is endless add a few

bui must admit to not reading the review

Doug

Edited July 13, 200519 yr by MAKEMVINYL

Yer - I can totally see the link - we've already touched on this in other posts.

One clue from the artists angle is artists like Archie Bell & the Drells "Tighten Up" - with this group becoming a mainstay in the Disco sound.

Alot of Northern, Disco & now House share the same 'sto,mmp' effect & mid tempo which allows for dancing for alot of hours.

I've found alot of the original Northern Soul ppl recongnised Disco & hooked onto it straight away.

some even consider some of Tavarress's musi9c as Northern - contentious to some I know.

Take Gwen McCrae's "Keep The Fire Burning" the beat / rpesentation is Funk / Disco - but the sentiment & feel of the music could have been in 60's soul.

"I never knew what disco was" - Gwen McCrae.

Gwen's label TK records in miami became attached to this 'disco' label - but as someone rightly said the term 'disco' refers to the popularity of these venues & their discotech events.

'Allniter' is attached to the northern scene - but if we started talking of 'allniter' music the music would be a wide spectrum as disco is.

Disco can emcompass soul, reggae, funk, blues, latin, soca, gay elements - all of these areas - but it is not owned by one....

Can you deny the soulpower of tracks linked to disco like:

"Funky Nassau" - The Begining Of The end"

"Soul City Walk", "Don't Let Love Get You Down" -Archie Bells & the drells

"Ain't No Mountain High Enough" - Diana Ross - or Jocelyn Brown's version.

"Backstabbers" - The Ojays

"Standing In Line" - ESG

"Over & Over" - Sylvester

"Spreadlove" - Al Hudson & the Partners - (Check the wkd Soulful House cover of this by Lenny Fontanna of this with Kenny Bobien on vocals & Grant Green on guitar).

"Valdez In The Country" / "Nature Boy" / "The World Is A Ghetto" - George Benson.

"Message In Our Music" - The O'jays - (& the emotio in that record is up there with any 60's / northern track - it screaches out! ).

"People & The World" - Roy Ayres

"Rejoice" / "Best Of my Love" - The Emotions

"I'm Every Woman" - Chaka Khan

& from the Saturday Nite Fever film I really dig:

"Disco Inferno" & "Salsation"

Note - the break from Salsation has been sampled many times & trevor Nelson was using it as the theme music to his radio show.

Yer - disco was popular & universal -as House (son of Disco) is now.

& Many of the above i list didn'tgo anywhere near the top 20 on release.

Here's another of my faves:

"Free Love" - Jean Carn - that album only sold 1000 copies & was then deleted when it was first released.

I still DJ many of these & the wider soul music spectrum love these as classics.

for me it's whether I like the music - not the side psychology of thinking I'm the only one in the world to know or own a record - if you've got something good - why not share it? - each to their own.

many or few records sold on it's own does not make a record good or bad for me - it's all about the music(IMO)

Each to their own - luv the music & soul not the labels we attach (IMO).

Edited July 14, 200519 yr by funky4u

I mentioned on a previous thread that way back "then" Chubby Checker was "At The Discotheque".

I don't think "At The Place That Plays Rare Uptempo Sixties Soul" was ever considered as an aternative title.

Good post Mr funky4u. Some excellent tunse mentioned.

BTW, it doesn't sound like Kenny Bobien singing on Lenny Fontana's "Spread Love" to me.

Edited July 14, 200519 yr by daved

I mentioned on a previous thread that way back "then" Chubby Checker was "At The Discotheque".

I don't think "At The Place That Plays Rare Uptempo Sixties Soul" was ever considered as an aternative title.

link

and then there was the "Capitol Discotheque '66 Series" beloved of UK collectors.

Here's another take on the name:

The very origin of disco was during the French resistance during World War Two. Basically an illicit form, it was a music - jazz - that the Nazis in wartime Paris had banned because it related to several things that they didn't want to deal with like Americans, Jewishness, blacks, so they banned it. So it became the official resistance music in clubs. Discotheques started out in this completely illicit environment, they weren't tolerated by the state, and they never lost that underground appeal.

MW: After the war, Paris clubs like the Whiskey A Go Go continued the festivity of the private record library, literally the translation of the French word, "discotheque". The spirit of the underground disco was marked by the size of the clubs (they were tiny with even smaller dance floors); the subversion (parties were announced via word of mouth); and even the privacy of the clubs was conveyed through the manner in which drinks were consumed, says Peter Braunstein.

PB: People didn't order drinks the way we do, like OK, I'll have a whiskey, OK, I'll have another whiskey. They'd buy an actual bottle of whiskey, it would have their name emblazoned on it, and then they would keep the whiskey in a locker at the bottom room with the midget dance floor. So you would then go back week after week and you'd still be working off this one whiskey bottle.

MW: By the early sixties, New York City had created its own versions of the Paris discotheques. They slowly grew bigger in size and by the end of the decade, the novelty had worn off, but the hedonism hadn't. As Peter Braunstein explains, the inherent hedonism of sixties disco culture was co-opted by a more creative group of revelers.

PB: This was the era of gay disco culture, underground discos. The most notorious one was right behind the Port Authority Bus Terminal, it was called the Sanctuary. Basically it was scandalous because it was a former church, a Lutheran church that was converted into a gay nightclub. As if that wasn't crazy enough for most people, you had the deejay who actually started to mix. And this club was notorious. You would have people outside at 4 am, piling out into the street.

MW: The glamour of late nights that the gay scene started then got mainstreamed by New York clubs like Studio 54. But some Americans hated it, and a few even went so far as to riot against disco.

PB: "Good Times" came out within a year of the infamous Kaminsky Park riots, the "disco sucks" demolition in which Chicago White Sox fans during an impromptu disco demolition rally between games went nuts and began tearing up the stadium, and they had to cancel the game and it caused a lot of damage. There was sort of a backlash against a lot of the demographics that disco represented, its core audience being gay men, a lot of blacks listened to disco, in fact it represented every other demographic except the traditional white male rock fans, and they were so afraid every time that disco would take up a couple more notches on the charts, they would see it as a personal attack as if their identity was being violated.

MW: Compare the sounds on the dance floor of 1979 with those at disco's roots during the French resistance, and there appears to be little in common. What they did share was a rhythm that moved the counterculture and would-be revolutionaries to while the hours away until they could emerge into the daylight, and act like everybody else.

- Marco Werman

original article offline, copyright Marco Werman

More at

https://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1392/P...Braunstein.html

Godz

Northern Soul Is 

It is the term used to describe the music we dance too It embraces music from differant genre, Records have and are still played from Rock to Pop , Disco to Funk, The majority being uptempo Soul music

I have greet trouble tring to explaine this to normal people. Car'nt belive ime doing on a soul site 

link

I meant the article read as if Motown and the assorted records we call Northern were produced here, rather than the US (of course there's the odd British thing) - would be misleading/ confusing to a reader who didn't know about it.. bad writing, that's all...

I know this may be off topic a little but here goes....

I was always under the impression that back in the 50's and early 60's people would dance to the sounds of a live band. It wasnt until later that DJ's were the form of entertainment. Can anyone confirm the first known DJ's in the UK?

I would be interested to hear about the early RnB clubs such as the Flamingo and places. Did DJ's play alongside the touring bands or did that come later? I know radio stations existed but were these DJ's playing the first imports in clubs?

Shane

Good post Mr funky4u. Some excellent tunse mentioned.

BTW, it doesn't sound like Kenny Bobien singing on Lenny Fontana's "Spread Love" to me.

link

You're right Dave it ain't Mr Bobien it's a geezer called DONALD PIKNEY. Just checked my copy.

Derek

I know this may be off topic a little but here goes....

I was always under the impression that back in the 50's and early 60's people would dance to the sounds of a live band. It wasnt until later that DJ's were the form of entertainment. Can anyone confirm the first known DJ's in the UK?

I would be interested to hear about the early RnB clubs such as the Flamingo and places. Did DJ's play alongside the touring bands or did that come later? I know radio stations existed but were these DJ's playing the first imports in clubs?

Shane

link

Some contend that Jimmy Saville was the first disc jockey in UK ballrooms. Ouch.

Some contend that Jimmy Saville was the first disc jockey in UK ballrooms. Ouch.

link

Jimmy Saville has a good claim on it.

Live bands played and there were smaller groups playing in between the headlining act so as they could go to the nearest pub for a pint.

Jazz fans were importing discs as far back as the twenties.

Clubs twigged after the success of midweek and lunchtime gigs that DJ's could pull a crowd. In the late sixties bands went heavy and clubs went disco. The Mecca ballrooms still had showbands playing live but they too eventually ended with DJ's.

Below is the scene when the Modern and Wigan fans declared a truce.

Again, Disco had such a bad rep due to what people at the time heard the media deem 'disco'.

Just like now if I tell people I like 'house' music -'Eeeewww, not that 2 Unlimited shit' (Extreme example but you get the drift).

Just like that bloke down the Labour Club who overhears you mention that you like Northern and thinks 'Love On A Mountain Top' and 'What' covers you.

Everything in the black music scene, since there has been a 'media', has been given a tag to allow people that don't understand it to somehow get a grip on what they are talking about.

I hope that people on this board understand that it all runs a little deeper.

I meant the article read as if Motown and the assorted records we call Northern were produced here, rather than the US (of course there's the odd British thing) - would be misleading/ confusing to a reader who didn't know about it.. bad writing, that's all... 

link

Like my spelling then

Not comfortable with the thought that (according to the author) the first Dj's came out of Nazi Germany

Found this link with a chronological path of the history of the Turntable (near bottom of page)

https://www.ilikemusic.com/index.php/make%20music/301

1906 THE FIRST EVER RADIO DJ: American Engineer, Reginald A Fessenden, was the first person to play a record over the airwaves.

Certain Dave Rimmer knew this fellow as a school child

Edited July 15, 200519 yr by Brett

Again, Disco had such a bad rep due to what people at the time heard the media deem 'disco'.

link

I'm guilty of this which was why i posted the original question. Until I read the replies to this thread, my understanding of the genre of "disco" was defined by sounds like:-

Anita Ward - Ring My Bell

Young Hearts Run Free - Candi Staton

Native New Yorker - Odyssey

I Feel Love - Donna Summer

...And all the stuff played when I was sitting on the waltzers at the shows (sic; fair in English)

-----------------------------

Ian Levine records aside, if disco covers tracks including those mentioned by Funky4U and other posters then yes.. I can see the connection now. CHeers

For those of you interested in the development of DJ-ing culture and the music genres associated with it... there's a book called "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life - The History Of The Disc Jockey" written by Bill Brewster and Frank Broughton that I highly recommend. It's not perfect, but it's a very good book spanning the years between the first turntable and right up until the early 2000s. Should be £7.99 in any good UK book store.

Hre's a VERY good site about disco:

https://www.jahsonic.com/Disco.html

And here's another one:

https://www.disco-disco.com/

Jimmy Saville has a good claim on it.

link

Did anyone see Jimmy Saville last night on that Jarvis Cocker programme?

Bob Casey ( a major influence on the New York music scene) made what I believe were the first double-deck turntables - back in 1955.

  I'm guilty of this which was why i posted the original question.  Until I read the replies to this thread, my understanding of the genre of "disco" was defined by sounds like:-

Anita Ward - Ring My Bell

Young Hearts Run Free - Candi Staton

Native New Yorker - Odyssey

I Feel Love - Donna Summer

...And all the stuff played when I was sitting on the waltzers at the shows (sic; fair in English)

-----------------------------

Ian Levine records aside, if disco covers tracks including those mentioned by Funky4U and other posters then yes.. I can see the connection now.  CHeers 

link

- I know the Ian Levine records you're talking about.

Incidently - I like allthe records you mention - i know "ring my bell" is a little tacky, kitch or camp.

But "Young Hearts, Run Free" & Native New Yorker I Luv.

But's just my taste.

Good post Mr funky4u. Some excellent tunse mentioned.

BTW, it doesn't sound like Kenny Bobien singing on Lenny Fontana's "Spread Love" to me.

link

Sorry - line's crossed - there is two different songs called "spread Love" - Kenny is on the latter version made by Louie Vega.

Grant Green is deff on the guitar on Lenny'sversion of the Partners cover

The meaning of terms such as 'Disco' seem to alter over time. Remeber the Casino was voted ahead of Studio 54 as the 'Best Disco' in the world.

Did anyone see Jimmy Saville last night on that Jarvis Cocker programme? 

Bob Casey ( a major influence on the New York music scene) made what I believe were the first double-deck turntables - back in 1955.

link

Good programme that Wasn't Jimmy the first in the UK to use two turntables? (by wiring two seperate ones together)... sure I read that somewhere, possibly 'Last Night A DJ Saved My Life'.

  I'm guilty of this which was why i posted the original question.  Until I read the replies to this thread, my understanding of the genre of "disco" was defined by sounds like:-

Anita Ward - Ring My Bell

Young Hearts Run Free - Candi Staton

Native New Yorker - Odyssey

I Feel Love - Donna Summer

link

This opens up a whole new set of questions. I love all of the records above and could never understand why some of them never got played at 'northern' events, especially Candi Staton and things like The Emotions - You Got the Best of My Love and Earth Wind and Fire - Boogie Wonderland. I could easily see myself on the floor to these 'disco' classics.

There seems to be an unnatural division sometimes that's not even down to the dancability of the music in a northern sense. Sometimes there is a bit of a blurring like when Edwin Starr's Contact is played or even Happy Radio. But even then these tunes still don't qualify as Crossover sounds like the Montclairs or the Moments etc..

Just a thought...

M.

Is'nt disco just another part of soul music EVOLUTION

^ ^ Yes for me it IS part of soul music.

& yes I agree "young Hearts Run Free" has more in common musically than alot of later recorded material that ppl consider Northern Soul.

What ever it is I like it.