Firstly let me apologise if this has been discussed before and I missed it

It has been suggested that this was Carl Carlton or Wyatt (Big Boy) Shepherd, but that's so far speculation, I believe.

Hate or love the song (I love the backing tune !!!), I have been digging around and can't find much info, both songs Jobete BMI

The JTP on the red label from 1965 (Different mix? of Angel Baby) is probably Jesse Thomas Productions and the Catalogue number refers to both The "Gold"  International Hits (INT) which has "The Heatwaves" on "Angel Baby" side and "The Raidettes" on the flip (again I know nothing !!!) and the "Red" International Hits (music is by Jesses And The James Boys ?)

I can't find anything on the labels, Jesse Thomas, or if the Gold label or Red label is related to Scorpio And His People (that's another story !!! perhaps for another thread, I have added an image to see)

 

 

Edited February 14, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Better Image

According to Keith Rylatt's "Groovesville USA", The Sheppard Boy is .......

Jesse Thomas. 

23 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Great topic indeed Blackpoolsoul. I've got the JTP and the gold issue as well. Two of my cherished records.. I never knew about the Red International "That Universal Sound" issue, very interesting!  Do you happen to know what the flip side is to the Red International Hits "That Universal Sound" 45?

I would say that it seems back then some songwriting and arrangement credits were sometimes changing on different releases where other writers or producers were given credit for whatever reason that might be.. Would have loved to see this guy perform.

PS that JTP scan is my copy Cheers, Steven

 

 

Edited February 14, 20196 yr by djspproductions
left out few words

9 hours ago, the yank said:

According to Keith Rylatt's "Groovesville USA", The Sheppard Boy is .......

Jesse Thomas. 

That is fantastic info, thanks ( I was (probably stupidly) leaning towards Darrow Fletcher when he was about 12 as in "The Pain Just Gets A Little Deeper)......next obvious question is.....who is Jesse L. Thomas please

Edited February 14, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Updated

1 hour ago, djspproductions said:

 

Ooh can we have a better scan of both sides please and are they different mixes?  and I couldn't find the flip side of the other red one "Baby, I Need You" (here's hoping someone on here has one)

Edited February 14, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Updated

9 hours ago, the yank said:

According to Keith Rylatt's "Groovesville USA", The Sheppard Boy is .......

Jesse Thomas. 

If I had to take a guess I would lean towards Jesse Thomas. Everything about it suggests a vanity project 

On 14/02/2019 at 06:49, Blackpoolsoul said:

Ooh can we have a better scan of both sides please and are they different mixes?  and I couldn't find the flip side of the other red one "Baby, I Need You" (here's hoping someone on here has one)

baby i need you is very similar to angel baby but not half as good or as fast.

I don't have any information about Jesse Thomas, but there is another release on International Hits:

Jesse - Crying Tears Of Joy / I'm Gonna Take You (International Hits 1982)

Also, The Scorpio & His People record is definitely not related. 

4 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

I don't have any information about Jesse Thomas, but there is another release on International Hits:

Jesse - Crying Tears Of Joy / I'm Gonna Take You (International Hits 1982)

Also, The Scorpio & His People record is definitely not related. 

Great stuff, thanks

You don't happen to have scans of the Jesse - Crying Tears Of Joy / I'm Gonna Take You (International Hits 1982) please ?

The backing track to '' Angel Baby'' sounds like a slowed down version of  Marvin's  '' You're A Wonderful One'' , to my ears .

11 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

You don't happen to have scans of the Jesse - Crying Tears Of Joy / I'm Gonna Take You (International Hits 1982) please ?

 

On 13/02/2019 at 22:25, the yank said:

According to Keith Rylatt's "Groovesville USA", The Sheppard Boy is .......

Jesse Thomas. 

Can you post the article please, please

12 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Can you post the article please, please

quick recap 

 

On 13/02/2019 at 23:52, chalky said:

If I had to take a guess I would lean towards Jesse Thomas. Everything about it suggests a vanity project 

But why would Jobete Music already reaching a very high point of prestige and money-earning potential, publish some poor-quality songs written by a songwriter-wannabee, with not all that much singing talent (based on Motown's 1964-65 standards?  Why would they publish songs from an unsigned writer and singer on a "vanity project"?

11 hours ago, RobbK said:

But why would Jobete Music already reaching a very high point of prestige and money-earning potential, publish some poor-quality songs written by a songwriter-wannabee, with not all that much singing talent (based on Motown's 1964-65 standards?  Why would they publish songs from an unsigned writer and singer on a "vanity project"?

Jobete probably leased the song to Jesse, it makes the company money that wouldn’t otherwise be made Imguess.  Many jobete songs on small labels as you well know. 

18 hours ago, chalky said:

Jobete probably leased the song to Jesse, it makes the company money that wouldn’t otherwise be made Imguess.  Many jobete songs on small labels as you well know. 

I get your point.  But, I made my statement based on the fact that his songs are very simple, not good, at all, in my estimation, and grossly unlike virtually ALL Jobete Music songs I've ever heard from the period of 1965-66.  And they were WRITTEN  by him (Jesse Thomas).  He got them published by Jobete Music, sold them to Jobete, and leased them back so he could record them??? 

27 minutes ago, RobbK said:

I get your point.  But, I made my statement based on the fact that his songs are very simple, not good, at all, in my estimation, and grossly unlike virtually ALL Jobete Music songs I've ever heard from the period of 1965-66.  And they were WRITTEN  by him (Jesse Thomas).  He got them published by Jobete Music, sold them to Jobete, and leased them back so he could record them??? 

EMI bought the stuff, I wonder where it is, some dark and dank cellar somewhere ?

https://www.englandunderground.com/city/hammersmith-london/listing/the-offices-of-record-label-emi/

On 13/02/2019 at 22:25, the yank said:

According to Keith Rylatt's "Groovesville USA", The Sheppard Boy is .......

Jesse Thomas. 

I got Keiths number from Soulmine (nice guy) yesterday and phoned his wife and she took my number for him to return my call.

He has just phoned me (what a really nice man) and the info in his book was gained from another collector who suggested it was Jesse Thomas, but sadly there is no proof, just guess work

Edited February 23, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
updated

Just out of curiosity, what other song besides "My Angel Baby" was published by Jobete?

1 hour ago, the yank said:

Just out of curiosity, what other song besides "My Angel Baby" was published by Jobete?

I had thought I saw "Crying Tears Of Joy"  and "I'm Gonna Take You" with Jobete Music on them, but I remembered wrongly.  Seeing all 3 of those different-coloured 45s above, gave me the impression that ALL his songs were published by Jobete.  Now, I see that all 3 of those I remembered were "My Angel Baby", and "A Lonely Sheppard Boy" was "I.H. Music", and the credits on "I'm Gonna Take You" were unreadable, and so short, that they are a LOT more likely to read "I.H. Music", than "Jobete".

The yank, do you know if the song "I'm Gonna Take You" the same track as the gold issue's "Take You From Your Guy"?? or maybe just a title change...

2 hours ago, RobbK said:

I had thought I saw "Crying Tears Of Joy"  and "I'm Gonna Take You" with Jobete Music on them, but I remembered wrongly.  Seeing all 3 of those different-coloured 45s above, gave me the impression that ALL his songs were published by Jobete.  Now, I see that all 3 of those I remembered were "My Angel Baby", and "A Lonely Sheppard Boy" was "I.H. Music", and the credits on "I'm Gonna Take You" were unreadable, and so short, that they are a LOT more likely to read "I.H. Music", than "Jobete".

 

"Crying Tears Of Joy" - I.H. (BMI)

"I'm Gonna Take You" - I.H. / Brohun (BMI)

I can't say if there's a similarity between "I'm Gonna Take You" and "Take You From Your Guy" right now because my 45s are in storage for the next month or so, but I can say that both sides of the Jesse 45 are not good.

11 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

 

"Crying Tears Of Joy" - I.H. (BMI)

"I'm Gonna Take You" - I.H. / Brohun (BMI)

I can't say if there's a similarity between "I'm Gonna Take You" and "Take You From Your Guy" right now because my 45s are in storage for the next month or so, but I can say that both sides of the Jesse 45 are not good.

Same BMI but might not help

Edited February 24, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Added Image

In reference to the Jesses And The James Boys surely this cannot be connected ?

 

It's most likely this Jesse James - 

 

5 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

In reference to the Jesses And The James Boys surely this cannot be connected ?

 

That's Jesse James, pretty obvious really.

2 minutes ago, the yank said:

It's most likely this Jesse James - 

 

It is the Philly one

5 minutes ago, chalky said:

That's Jesse James, pretty obvious really.

I get that, but just wondered if they were doing the music (and I do know the group is Philly related and not Detroit) and it's coincidence that Jesse Thomas's name is there as well, the more we can rule out the more we can get to the bottom of it

Edited February 24, 20196 yr by Blackpoolsoul
Updated

11 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I get that, but just wondered if they were doing the music (and I do know the group is Philly related and not Detroit) and it's coincidence that Jesse Thomas's name is there as well, the more we can rule out the more we can get to the bottom of it

Where is Jesse Thomas's name?

 

12 minutes ago, chalky said:

Where is Jesse Thomas's name?

 

   I believe he is referring to Jesse and the James Boys not Jesse Thomas. If you look in the 1st post, the Gold label International Hits 

 calls the group the Heatwaves. But on the orange label, the group is known as the Jesse and the James Boys  which is the same name on 

the Buddah 45.

Edited February 24, 20196 yr by the yank

9 minutes ago, chalky said:

Where is Jesse Thomas's name?

 

Sorry I didn't make myself clear... Jesse Thomas is writer of Angle Baby Gold (International hits) and Red (JTP)......but Jesse And The James Boys is quoted as "Music by" on the other red label (International Hits)

Jesse and The James Boys is Jesse James (an East Coaster.  Jesse Thomas is likely to have been a local Detroiter, given that his label shows Detroit as the location, AND that the 2 music publishers we see on the labels, Jobete and Brohun, were both located in Detroit. 

Previously, I saw the "I.H." printed on the label of "I'm Gonna Take You" near the area where the music publisher would be, and I couldn't read the blurred printing below it.  So, I thought "I.H." was Thomas' other (his own) music publisher.  But BlackpoolSoul's posting a scan showing "Brohun Music" to show a connection, helped me figure out that the music publisher on "I'm Gonna Take You" 's label is "Brohun", which was the music publisher owned by the partnership of Joe Hunter and Fred Brown, who ran Kable, Mickay's, and Ring Records.  I.H., the abbreviation of the label's name, was located in front of the record's catalogue number.

Now, I'm even more shocked.  Thomas somehow got BOTH Motown AND Hunter/Brown to publish his weak "vanity" level songs, and somehow got the money or found a backer, to pay for their recording and pressing (at least a minimum run).  I can tell from the sound of his singing voice that Thomas is NOT Wyatt Shepherd, nor is he Carl Carlton. 

 

Edited February 25, 20196 yr by RobbK

On 23/02/2019 at 16:00, Nick Soule said:

 

"Crying Tears Of Joy" - I.H. (BMI)

"I'm Gonna Take You" - I.H. / Brohun (BMI)

I can't say if there's a similarity between "I'm Gonna Take You" and "Take You From Your Guy" right now because my 45s are in storage for the next month or so, but I can say that both sides of the Jesse 45 are not good.

 

Actually both sides are pretty charming imho

'My Angel Baby' is dreadful, but it does appear in the Jobete song catalog from 1967

8 hours ago, soulhawk said:

 

Actually both sides are pretty charming imho

'My Angel Baby' is dreadful, but it does appear in the Jobete song catalog from 1967

Who were the writers of "Crying Tears Of Joy" and "I'm Gonna Take You"?  Were Joe Hunter or Fred Brown involved in writing the BroHun song?

20 minutes ago, RobbK said:

Who were the writers of "Crying Tears Of Joy" and "I'm Gonna Take You"?  Were Joe Hunter or Fred Brown involved in writing the BroHun song?

Jesse Thomas on both sides. 

4 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

Jesse Thomas on both sides. 

I don't get why Jobete or Brohun wanted to publish them.  And I can't figure out what happened to make that happen.  Did Thomas first take them all to Jobete?  Then, when the song eventually bought by Brohun was rejected by Jobete, as were the 2  I.H. published songs, Thomas took the rejected songs to Brohun, who bought only the one?  Clearly, both Jobete and Brohun made no money on those 2 songs, other than the small fee they charged him to publish them.

maybe he was looking to get signed as an artist or songwriter? who knows

leafing through the Jobete catalog it's really diverse - soul, country, MOR pop, children's songs, you name it 

 

On 23/02/2019 at 16:00, Nick Soule said:

 

"Crying Tears Of Joy" - I.H. (BMI)

"I'm Gonna Take You" - I.H. / Brohun (BMI)

I can't say if there's a similarity between "I'm Gonna Take You" and "Take You From Your Guy" right now because my 45s are in storage for the next month or so, but I can say that both sides of the Jesse 45 are not good.

I was reminded to listen to this today (multiple years later), and Jesse's "I'm Gonna Take You" is the same song as The Sheppard Boy's "Take You From Your Guy". The only copyright info I can find for either version of the title doesn't list either Jobete or Brohun as a publisher.