Jump to content

The Trouble With Soul Source


BrianB

Recommended Posts

Picture this. We are at Wigan Casino on the last ever night. The biggest record on the scene in the late 70s early 80s is We Can Make It by the Mello Souls on Soul, a very popular Motown label. It is unissued in the States, only 2 known copies exist, and it has been re-released in the UK. It is played all the time, and someone pays £15k for an original US copy. At the end of the last night at Wigan, the record is played again and again.

Let's now come back to the present, and we have someone on Soul Source requesting a mint copy of Do I Love You by Frank Wilson. Now whether this is a tad na¯ve or not, surprise, surprise, the request has been met by the usual comments of "I wouldn't have a copy given" (Only costs £15 grand. That's what I call a purist!!!), and the record receives a lot of disparaging comments.

But what if he had been asking for the Mello Souls record as described in the Wigan Casino example above?

The Mello Souls is a brilliant record, rare as well. If this had been played to death at Wigan, been sold for £15k, had a legend built up around it, and then used in a TV advert, would some of the people on here who rave about it, and hold it up as a shining example of us still finding records to equal the discoveries of the 70s, be saying, "I wouldn't have a copy given". I think they would.

Why wouldn't they want a copy given? Simply because it is popular.

Also the comments, (that seem to have been lost from the Brighouse Events thread), following Roccia's spot at Brighouse are ridiculous. He played a brilliant, if familiar spot, but some of the comments such as "if anyone else had have done this spot it would have been boring" but in an effort to wind up or condescend to anyone else who might have the temerity to play these, the comment carries on to say that only because it is Roccia, it wasn't boring! (Apologies as I have had to paraphrase, as the actual comments seem to have been lost).

The point I am trying to make is that tremendous records are criticised on here by the so-called purists, just because they are popular.

I, and others on here have said this so many times before, quality lasts for ever. Like it or not, we no longer discover the Frank Wilson's, Dobie Gray's etc, in the same vast quantities and with the same regularity. Some of the new discoveries eulogized over now would not have been played at The Torch, Wheel, Mecca or Stafford, and probably not the Casino in its worst hour. We want them to be good, we even want them to be great, but in a lot of cases they aren't.

Roccia's spot was brilliant. It contained records that were expensive, but in most cases can be bought by most people with a few bob. So it was constructively criticised on SS because it was apparently judged to be not rare enough.

The scene has always been like this. People not liking or dancing to records any more simply because they have been overplayed, re-released or booted.

Why can't we appreciate records for what they are, not for how much they cost, how many times they have been played, or what label they are on?

What do you think? Its what's in the grooves that counts!

Link to comment
Social source share

  • Replies 131
  • Views 6.9k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Most active in this topic

Most active in this topic

Some good points, but and it is a big but, I don't think anyone dislikes a record because it is popular rather they go off a record because it gets over exposed. Frank Wilson is over exposed the Mello Souls isn't. This brings the point about boots into sharp relief. I dare say if there were as many different issues, legitimate or otherwise, of the Mellow Souls as there is of Frank Wilson many of us would be tired of that too. It doesn't stop being a great record we just get tired of hearing it so often.

There aren't any soul records I'd rather not own than own so I'll have any you or anyone else is giving away. whistling.gif

Link to comment
Social source share


Guest martinsbox

Frank Wilson (Eddie Foster) - Do I over-play you (Indeed I do), was a great record in the seventies and indeed filled the floor then! Over the years, it has EMIed, booted and re-issued on UK Tamla Motown (I bought a copy on TM for 75p when it came out), so every Tom, Dick or Harry could play it, reducing the ultra rare 45 down to pennies in value. There is no eliteism in putting over-played sounds down . . . over-played sounds require a good rest and give other records a chance!! Yes, in twenty or so years give it another spin.

Martin

Link to comment
Social source share

Also the comments, (that seem to have been lost from the Brighouse Events thread), following Roccia's spot at Brighouse are ridiculous. He played a brilliant, if familiar spot, but some of the comments such as "if anyone else had have done this spot it would have been boring" but in an effort to wind up or condescend to anyone else who might have the temerity to play these, the comment carries on to say that only because it is Roccia, it wasn't boring! (Apologies as I have had to paraphrase, as the actual comments seem to have been lost).

Erm, that was me who wrote that.

I don't see what was wrong with it, even Roccia himself said the do was totally oldies based. I've met & spoken to Roccia & also have read his comments on here & i know his passion for the scene & the music & that is why i said those comments & i still stand by them that if that set had been played by someone with less passion it would have been dull.

I've seen plenty of people play those sort of sets out at dos including tunes such as the over hyped Frank Wilson & i'm sorry but it is boring.

Simon

Link to comment
Social source share

As a Northern record, Frank Wilson is a hundred times better than the Mellow Soul, imagine if you'd never heard either of them before and play them one after the other

Thing is Pete we can't ever do that can we. Hear them both again for the first time I mean. I loved FW I even did the whole down on one knee proposal with it playing in the background but I know I'd rather hear the Mellow Souls now if on a night out.

Link to comment
Social source share

Also the comments, (that seem to have been lost from the Brighouse Events thread), following Roccia's spot at Brighouse are ridiculous. He played a brilliant, if familiar spot, but some of the comments such as "if anyone else had have done this spot it would have been boring" but in an effort to wind up or condescend to anyone else who might have the temerity to play these, the comment carries on to say that only because it is Roccia, it wasn't boring! (Apologies as I have had to paraphrase, as the actual comments seem to have been lost).

One other thing, i certainly never write anything to wind anyone up or to be condescending, that's not my style at all.

Simon

Link to comment
Social source share

Thing is Pete we can't ever do that can we. Hear them both again for the first time I mean. I loved FW I even did the whole down on one knee proposal with it playing in the background but I know I'd rather hear the Mellow Souls now if on a night out.

So would I, but nobody in their right mind could say it's a better record

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest martinsbox

Mello Souls is a better record

Everything is always a matter of personal opinion. This is not a Nanny site, so at least we can all view our own opinions. At a venue, you can still view your opinions by either dancing or not!! Remember Soul music is a passion, you either like a sound or hate it . . . probably!!

Martin

Link to comment
Social source share

What About all them Shrine re-issue records being put up for sale on ebay, The Cautions - No other way, is im my opinion a bloody great record but will it be played out at soul events anyone goes too, or have the boot DJs not got enough balls to play it for fear of hanging by the soul police.

And what about The Mello Souls if that got booted too, where would a Dj have the balls to play it out if it was booted and would anyone go to a venue that encouraged that, if you wouldnt go to them type of venues it or they wouldnt be overplayed or would they.

what do you lot think on that little view of mine,

Link to comment
Social source share

Everything is always a matter of personal opinion. This is not a Nanny site, so at least we can all view our own opinions. At a venue, you can still view your opinions by either dancing or not!! Remember Soul music is a passion, you either like a sound or hate it . . . probably!!

Martin

thats your opinion laugh.gif

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest martinsbox

What About all them Shrine re-issue records being put up for sale on ebay, The Cautions - No other way, is im my opinion a bloody great record but will it be played out at soul events anyone goes too, or have the boot DJs not got enough balls to play it for fear of hanging by the soul police.

And what about The Mello Souls if that got booted too, where would a Dj have the balls to play it out if it was booted and would anyone go to a venue that encouraged that, if you wouldnt go to them type of venues it or they wouldnt be overplayed or would they.

what do you lot think on that little view of mine,

Had a copy of The Cautions - No other way on original Shrine and sold it . . . didn't do a great deal for me then, and not a lot now!!

Martin

Edited by martinsbox
Link to comment
Social source share

What About all them Shrine re-issue records being put up for sale on ebay, The Cautions - No other way, is im my opinion a bloody great record but will it be played out at soul events anyone goes too, or have the boot DJs not got enough balls to play it for fear of hanging by the soul police.

And what about The Mello Souls if that got booted too, where would a Dj have the balls to play it out if it was booted and would anyone go to a venue that encouraged that, if you wouldnt go to them type of venues it or they wouldnt be overplayed or would they.

what do you lot think on that little view of mine,

I know off two people who play this off a 'carver'

Link to comment
Social source share

What About all them Shrine re-issue records being put up for sale on ebay, The Cautions - No other way, is im my opinion a bloody great record but will it be played out at soul events anyone goes too, or have the boot DJs not got enough balls to play it for fear of hanging by the soul police.

And what about The Mello Souls if that got booted too, where would a Dj have the balls to play it out if it was booted and would anyone go to a venue that encouraged that, if you wouldnt go to them type of venues it or they wouldnt be overplayed or would they.

what do you lot think on that little view of mine,

What was the question again?? unsure.gif

Link to comment
Social source share

Had a copy of The Cautions - No other way on original Shrine and sold it . . . didn't do a great deal for me then, and not a lot now!!

Martin

thats your opinion again Martin :wicked:

seriously though, why buy a record thats quite pricey if it dont do it for you, its like marrying a women you dont fancy ohmy.gif

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest martinsbox

thats your opinion again Martin :wicked:

seriously though, why buy a record thats quite pricey if it dont do it for you, its like marrying a women you dont fancy ohmy.gif

If it only cost $10? Pardon, what's your question??

Martin

Link to comment
Social source share

If it only cost $10? Pardon, what's your question??

Martin

You swine you never told me that though did you :wicked:

not a question but more of a dilema or something else that i cant describe in words and meaning type of thingy huh.gif

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest martinsbox

You swine you never told me that though did you :shades:

not a question but more of a dilema or something else that i cant describe in words and meaning type of thingy :wicked:

Much the same as Timmie Williams for $10, isn't it, amongst other's of the same ilk!!!! whistling.gif

Martin

Edited by martinsbox
Link to comment
Social source share

Much the same as Timmie Williams for $10, isn't it, amogst other's of the same ilk!!!! whistling.gif

Martin

now your showing off :shades:

Ive got a Frank Wilson on tmg i got for a tenner :wicked:

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest martinsbox

now your showing off :shades:

Ive got a Frank Wilson on tmg i got for a tenner whistling.gif

No mate, honest, I've just been very, very lucky!

Martin

p.s. wait til Cynthia Brown takes off in a big way . . . another $10 record!!! :wicked:

11406 refosoul

Edited by martinsbox
Link to comment
Social source share

No mate, honest, I've just been very, very lucky!

Martin

p.s. wait til Cynthia Brown takes off in a big way . . . another $10 record!!! :shades:

Long may it continue too :wicked:

fancy doubling your money $20 + p&p whistling.gif

Link to comment
Social source share

Im not really sure Rowly but its going off topic quick like every other thread on Soul Source does biggrin.gif

It's a shame as Bob's is an interesting point of view & one i've encountered & been accused of in the past but unfortunately Bob like others get the wrong end of the stick.

They assume because you're saying something is overplayed that you don't like it when in reality all you're saying is please give these records a rest & play something with a bit more imagination.

Simon

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest martinsbox

Long may it continue too :wicked:

fancy doubling your money $20 + p&p whistling.gif

I hope my luck carries on for a while. It's not been too bad in the last 10 or so years! I still manage to pick up a few tunes at around the $10 to $15 mark, but they are getting harder and harder.

As for doubling my money . . . . I'll leave that to your imagination mate. I've NEVER seen another copy of this for sale, or EVEN mentioned . . . how RARE is that? Does Frank Wilson come to mind??

Martin

Link to comment
Social source share

I hope my luck carries on for a while. It's not been too bad in the last 10 or so years! I still manage to pick up a few tunes at around the $10 to $15 mark, but they are getting harder and harder.

As for doubling my money . . . . I'll leave that to your imagination mate. I've NEVER seen another copy of this for sale, or EVEN mentioned . . . how RARE is that? Does Frank Wilson come to mind??

Martin

Lost track of this but are you on about Timmie Williams "Competition"? Mick Smith got one out of a box at a record fair in Holland for something like 5 quid 18 months ago. Bastard.

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest martinsbox

Lost track of this but are you on about Timmie Williams "Competition"? Mick Smith got one out of a box at a record fair in Holland for something like 5 quid 18 months ago. Bastard.

When I got my copy, I paid $10, about £7.50 at the time. . . and it took five weeks to arrive, was I fretting or what!!!

Martin

p.s. Mick got his cheap then, lucky bastard!!

Link to comment
Social source share

It's a shame as Bob's is an interesting point of view & one i've encountered & been accused of in the past but unfortunately Bob like others get the wrong end of the stick.

They assume because you're saying something is overplayed that you don't like it when in reality all you're saying is please give these records a rest & play something with a bit more imagination.

Simon

It is a shame Simon but i was actually trying to carry it on with a different angle on it with a tune thats just been booted and a great tune in his original post that has not yet been booted like he says.

And yes i agree Simon, Why play an "overplayed" when there are soo many more "underplayed" great tunes out there, some venues insist on FW being played and some dont even dare try too.

Some venues insist on hearing new tunes as thats what thier punters want and some venues punters go there because they know what they are getting and want to hear what they know.

I think the original point is why do some mock FW, when there are many more who still love it,

Merry go round time again. horses for courses maybe.

Link to comment
Social source share

As a Northern record, Frank Wilson is a hundred times better than the Mellow Soul, imagine if you'd never heard either of them before and play them one after the other

I can honestly say it would be the Mello Souls for me. It's one of the best if not the best Northern Soul dancer for me. Frank Wilson has never evoked the same reaction or "wow" factor that the Mello Souls has, even upon first hearing. Don't get me wrong it's top notch northern but just doesn't hold the same appeal as the Mello Souls. Now if you'd said Judy Street..... whistling.gif . I also rate Butch's Diane Lewis far more highly than Frank Wilson, a close second IMHO behind Mello Souls.

Link to comment
Social source share

I think Frank Wilson is a great record. Maybe over exposure has taken the sheen off it down the years, but a great record all the same. I think maybe because it was and still is big with the scootering fraternity that also has detracted from it's rare soul specialness. But again that would come back to the original point about purists. Imagine if you were press ganged into a drum & base night and after three hours solid d&b Frank Wilson came on..? Purists can be be wrong about things sometimes. They're still humans.

I remember a guy on here slagging the Mello Souls for sounding Al Jolson-ish in places and he's got a point, but it's a blinder imo. One of the best. Just goes to show it takes different strokes to move the world.

Link to comment
Social source share

Dont think its anything to do with being a purist, i would agree that along with many other Soul records Frank Wilson is a great record...problem is because of its popularity and price etc. it has attracted media attention adverts etc. and has now crossed over to the mainstream....i went to see the Velvelettes at Bedford end of last year, during the evening the djs played it no less than three bloody! times along side many other pop style (Baby Love) Motown records...dont get me wrong i expected to hear this kind of music i went purely to see the Velvelettes...but if ever a Northern record has crossed over then surely this one has....hence it losing credibility some what, with the scene...which is a shame sad.gif

Link to comment
Social source share

Guest barnsey

As a Northern record, Frank Wilson is a hundred times better than the Mellow Soul, imagine if you'd never heard either of them before and play them one after the other

mellow souls hands down .one records like being sucked into a hurricane the others like running twenty miles on a tread mill.both tunes have had massive exposure fw has know substance to me like eating candy floss.just my opinion

Edited by barnsey
Link to comment
Social source share

Guest Scarborosoul

At the end of the day if its overplayed etc if "the" Frank Wilson came up for sale it would be bought! Would KB sell??? and who knows where the other 2 or 3 are if they exist? I love the Mello Souls but would it attract the same attention?

Edited by Scarborosoul
Link to comment
Social source share

Guest Trevski

Mello Souls everytime!

FW, IMHO, and I STRESS, MHO, has, for me, come to represent everything that is backward, negative, unprogressive,narrowminded etc about the scene. Good record, well produced, that intro is great, but hearing it out means your gonna hear all the same old-same old as well, cos that's the type of venue that plays FW thesedays.

Link to comment
Social source share

At the end of the day if its overplayed etc if "the" Frank Wilson came up for sale it would be bought! Would KB sell??? and who knows where the other 2 or 3 are if they exist? I love the Mello Souls but would it attract the same attention?

I think the Mello Souls would fetch just as much if it came up for sale. It's just as rare at the end of the day, if not rarer.

Link to comment
Social source share

FW technically can be defined (under lab conditions) as a good record, great arrangement, in time and in tune, everything polished off nicely, ta very muchlike.

The Mello Souls is at times slightly out of tune, some times chaotic; a crash bang wallop affair that does have hint of Al Jolson.

But for sheer power, drama and passionate soul the Mello Souls with its all its foibles slaps FW polished tush any day. boxing.gif

Edited by Byrney
Link to comment
Social source share

As someone who doesn't actually go out much any more, and had not heard the Mello Souls, are we talking about the cover up "Hey Girl"? If so it isn't a bad record, and I'm sure it sounds better played out that as a refosoul clip, but IMHO it certainly ain't as good as the record we are also discussing, which I am sick of hearing but still is also IMHO a great "Northern Soul" record. The mello souls is only "fantastic" because it is rare & has a mystique because of it.

Paul

Link to comment
Social source share

FW technically can be defined (under lab conditions) as a good record, great arrangement, in time and in tune, everything polished off nicely, ta very muchlike.

The Mello Souls is at times slightly out of tune, some times chaotic; a crash bang wallop affair that does have hint of Al Jolson.

But for sheer power, drama and passionate soul the Mello Souls with its all its foibles slaps FW polished tush any day. boxing.gif

I agree with that... it may sound like someone banging some railings with a stick but the Mello Souls intro still gets me everytime....

Link to comment
Social source share

Oops! I stand corrected, and yes that is a better record than the C/U I first listened too. and I do like it. But without listening to it out a few times, I reserve judgement. By the way, when Frank was big, I had started my break from the allnighter scene, so I didn't really know it at Wigan etc.

Paul

Link to comment
Social source share

Get involved with Soul Source

Add your comments now

Join Soul Source

A free & easy soul music affair!

Join Soul Source now!

Log in to Soul Source

Jump right back in!

Log in now!



×
×
  • Create New...