My interview/video with Fred is now done and on YouTube...

 

Fabulous work again Graham. Thanks a lot for this one as for all the previous ones. Was looking forward to this very interview since I was wondering if it was him and Robert singing 'stop' and 'yeah, yeah, yeah' on the Mutt 45 as the Two Fellows (Fred and Skeets).

Now at least we got his answer saying that it wasn't him the Fred there so we take that. Hoping only we can rely on that since he didn't seem to think much of the Lo-Fi job done at Mutt and must think of it as a 'stain' on his otherwise perfect discography 'resumé'.

Edited December 25, 20231 yr by Tlscapital

Very good. Seems like the riots certainly took a bit of steam out of the momentum at the time.

Paul

Thank you once again for both a fascinating and factual piece on the superb Bridges/Knight/Eaton team.....Very much appreciated !

Great and informative interview. Fred mentioned Bill Craig a few times- here's a picture of Bill and Gwen Owens- 

 

Thanks, Yank... I did interview Bill Craig back then. At teh time he was still doing something in the music business and Don Mancha came while I was in his office.

7 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

... since he didn't seem to think much of the Lo-Fi job done at Mutt and must think of it as a 'stain' on his otherwise perfect discography 'resumé'.

You can hear the difference in audio on that Majestees' recording - it does actually sound like they are in a garage.

I'd assumed Fred and Skeets was him and maybe Bobby Eaton. Probably others did, too. 

I had some technical issues with this video and ended up getting a new laptop so that I could convert the file OK. It seems those two bits of actual 60's video of the group that I incorporated caused the problem.

BTW, you have my name mixed up - it's Graham.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

5 hours ago, Our Kid said:

Very good. Seems like the riots certainly took a bit of steam out of the momentum at the time.

Paul

I don't think Detroit has ever really recovered from the riots in '67. I haven't been over for 20 years, but back then the core of the city was dead. 

Thanks again Graham.  This one's sound is a bit muddy, making it hard to understand Fred in spots.  But, it's still great to hear it.

According to what Fred said about "Baby Don't You Weep", that they recorded it "Downtown"(at Specialty) around the same time as Wilson Pickett's "Let Me Be your Boy" and he talked about Wilbur Golden, I still think they were both started out as Correc-Tone projects, but as told to me back during the '60s, Golden ran short of cash and allowed Bateman to shop the Bridges recording in New York, in lieu of Bateman's back salary owed him by Golden (because of the large amount of money he spent on building their recording studio and having had to pay back money he owed Ed Wingate.  Bridges mentioned that Bateman shopped it along with other recordings he was talking to Lloyd Price's Double- L (Bateman finally made a deal with them in '63).  So, it sounds to me that the Versatile pressing came out in spring 1962 (which is when i bought it), rather than late 1961, the period you state that Columbia's East Coast pressing plant indicate.  My memory tells me that Correc-Tone 501-503 and The Fred Bridges Versatile records came out around the same time in spring 1962. 

Hi, Robb

Fred's voice was fairly quiet, but I thought this interview sounded pretty clear - it's certainly much better than many others I have. 

I can understand you've labeled it a Correc-Tone recording, but it was cut at Special and I don't think Wilbert Golden funded that session. If that's the case, Golden's involvement is nonexistant and the commonality is just Robert Bateman. 

The first Correc-tone records were released in early '62 - I think I made a mistake on my Robert Batemenan interview (caption). I've a note of Pickett appearing at the 20 Grand (solo) in June 1961, so he must have left The Falcons by then.

Yes, Fred said Mr Hicks (and also maybe Fred) went to New York with that Gloreco 45, but couldn't get a deal.

Fred didn't want to go on the record about Mike Terry and Mr Terrell, but he told me Terrell locked Mike in the trunk (boot) of a car and was going to shoot him. He didn't know why.

 

3 hours ago, G F said:

You can hear the difference in audio on that Majestees' recording - it does actually sound like they are in a garage.

I'd assumed Fred and Skeets was him and maybe Bobby Eaton. Probably others did, too. 

I had some technical issues with this video and ended up getting a new laptop so that I could convert the file OK. It seems those two bits of actual 60's video of the group that I incorporated caused the problem.

BTW, you have my name mixed up - it's Graham.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

Hi Graham, sorry, instantly corrected your name there...  Merry Christmas to you, your kin and your videos 😉 

Indeed I like many others always thought they were him and Bobby indeed. At 29:30 after naming the Majesttees Fred names the Two Fellows and you ask him that's you ain't it ? To my surprise he  says NO !

Fred then keeps on saying the record was 'stop' (don't give your lovin' to anybody)' and you ask him again not you and ? He replies again NO ! After that you ask him you don't know who the they were ? Fred replies NO !

He seems rather categorical about that fact there. Taking his word for it. Although I still hear their singing on the flip 'yeah, yeah, yeah' but maybe that's their whole typical composition that's fooling my ears there....

Loving this; I'll have to finish listening through later but great work and the balance of visuals and your actual interview edited through works so well.

Actually watched it all through; too good to stop!

hi graham,  just got back from scotland . another great interview hope you have more --- have a great new year

Cheers... I'm now compiling a few interviews to tell The Mike Hanks Story.

2 hours ago, G F said:

Cheers... I'm now compiling a few interviews to tell The Mike Hanks Story.

hi graham,  with mike hanks  ---  i take it youve got a lot more to add from when you did  SOULFUL DETROIT  way back ?

Another superb, factual interview Graham.  Again compulsive reading.

Great interview Graham, as mentioned Fred was as adamant with me about Fred and Skeets (Mutt ) not being him or any other B.O.S members. I've just checked my notes but no names given by Fred he just state two random guys he'd never met before.  I couple of other things which i thought maybe of interest Fred wrote "Baby Don't You Weep" with the working title of "i'm Coming Home" but was persauded to change it to "Baby Don't You Weep" by Ted Harris Sr the guy who administered Lou Beatty's publishing company Mums BMI. Fred also told me that he originally wrote the song "Candy" with James Shorter in mind, Shorter turned it down and as we know the B.O.S recorded it themselves. Fred also told me that that songwriter D.Quick Silver credited on some of the Aquarius releases was a pseudonym of Don Mancha's. Also Fred told me that he met Roy (Cortez) Butler from Eastpointe MI, through one of his (Fred) former girlfriends, he was a family relative of hers. Fred told me two of his favourite B.K.E productions/songs were "Candy" and Chuck Bernard's "Bessie Girl" so the last time i met him in a hotel in Birmingham (UK) he was touring with the then line up of the 'Four Tops' i gave him a copy of each he was chuffed to bits and spent the whole night showing them to all the Four Tops touring party even waking his wife up who had gone to bed early to show her. He actually bought me a pint of bitter as a thank you (my claim to fame LOL!) Joe Terrell was quite a notorious local character, he cut those Joy singles on 'The 21ST' (Also credited as '21st Century' before they dropped the Century due to a name clash with another group) of Which Willie Jones was the lead singer. we licensed the Joy 45's off Joe's Widow Hazel Terrell for a Soul Junction compilation a few years ago, a very lively woman (for her advancing years) to say the least she periodically rings me up from time to time trying to persaud me to release some of her Grandson's Hip Hop offerings !! Willie Jones later formed the group McArthur cutting "It's So Real" Brown Dog Records which Joe Terrell somehow credit's himself as the arranger on humm!

 

Dave Welding

Edited December 29, 20231 yr by Louise

8 hours ago, TOM CREEDEN said:

  ---  i take it youve got a lot more to add from when you did  SOULFUL DETROIT  way back ?

Maybe nothing really new to add, but it will include interviews with Mike's widow, Gracie, and likely Johnnie Mae Matthews, Louvaine Demps, Dee Edwards and Rudy Robinson, as well as some of the people I've done videos for already, like Melvin Davis - and various record samples. I sometimes wonder if Soulful Detroit will still be around in 10 years - hopefully these videos will stay on YouTube.

5 hours ago, Louise said:

.... Fred told me that he met Roy (Cortez) Butler from Eastpointe MI, through one of his (Fred) former girlfriends, he was a family relative of hers.

... Joe Terrell was quite a notorious local character, he cut those Joy singles on 'The 21ST' (Also credited as '21st Century' before they dropped the Century due to a name clash with another group) of Which Willie Jones was the lead singer. 

Hi, Dave

Roy may have been from Eastpointe, not Inkster, but I'm not sure what Eastpointe would have been like in the 60s - I think it could have been very white. 

As you prob' know, Willie Jones was singing with the Royal Jokers and also recorded a solo 45. I did an interview with him, but he couldn't recall who the two younger singers were with him in The 21st. Did you find out?

My interviews were done over 20 years ago and getting details without much Internet data was an issue, but I think Fred covered the main points. He mentioned that his wife sang for Diamond Jim, but I never got to find out what/if she recorded, as that interview was done at night and she was in bed.

 

 

 

Hi Graham 

RE: The 21ST members her's my CD Sleeve notes:

The 21ST or as they were briefly known The 21ST Century were a vocal quartet founded by former Royal Joker, Willie Cornelius Jones. Willie, the elder statesman of the group at the ripe old age of 33 years, was instrumental in mentoring his three younger charges. Firstly Kurt Jefferson Sr a former G.I. who for a period of time had been wheelchair bound due to the combat injuries he sustained while serving in Vietnam. Kurt or as he was fondly known as  ‘Fats’ due to his svelte like physique, was introduced to the group by his old neighborhood friend Dwight Cabean. Following Dwight’s approach to join The 21ST, Kurt curtailed his shift as a fork lift truck driver at Chryslers, grabbed his walking cane and walked out on his factory job forever. Willie, Kurt and Dwight, who was often jokingly referred to as “The Ladies Man” would also be joined by Rubin ‘Chico’ Davenport a former work colleague of Willie Jones at the Detroit Diesel Engine Plant.

Eventually the 21st signed on with the Joy label which was owned by the well connected business man Joe Terrell, who placed them under the musical direction of Andrew ‘Mike’ Terry whom he had employed to run his label. The 21ST would go on to record three excellent songs. Their first release being the Mike Terry, Mikki Farrow and James Semahaj penned “I Just Can’t Forget Your Name” backed with the Mike Terry and Don Mancha penned “The Sun Came Out” (Joy 672) recorded in 1972 at the GM studio’s with Mike Terry’s arrangements being interpreted by the musicians of the Detroit Symphony.

The popularity of this initial release would soon bring the group into conflict with a New York group of the same name. So to avoid any possible legal disputes the Joy group reverted to the abbreviated name of ‘The 21ST”. (N.B. On some of the initial 45’s pressing you can still see where the word century has been scored out with a black felt pen). “I Just Can’t Forget Your Name” was later issued again with a different flipside the Fred Bridges and Richard Knight penned “The Thought Of Me Losing You” again released on Joy 672. The name of the publishing company for Joy records was ‘Cangem’ a derivative of Candy and Gem the pet names Joe Terrell gave to his wife, Hazel.

Due in part to the popularity of their Joy recordings The 21ST would regularly tour the Canadian provinces of Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia often performing to French only speaking audiences who couldn’t understand a word they sang but really digged their exciting stage shows. They toured with a regular seven piece band, in a hired 12 seater camper van affectionately christened as ‘The Love Train”. This period of success would eventually come to end when the trappings of success began to turn some of the younger member’s heads, prompting Willie Jones to leave the group.  So during 1974 The 21ST finally disbanded with Rubin later marrying a Canadian girl and settling in Toronto. Dwight also married and moved down south signaling the end of both of their performing careers. While Kurt briefly sang with a group called the 5 Phases, before later joining the group ‘The Solid Solution’ who recorded the popular album “Loving You” on Silver Spoon Records in 1978.

 Willie Jones did return to Canada a a year later with a short lived ensemble by the name of ‘McArthur’. McArthur were an all male vocal quartet founded by Willie Jones

Following the disbandment of The 21ST during 1974 Willie vaguely remembers that the other group members of McArthur were Cheslawn Vickers at the time a serving Police Officer who timed his annual leave to coincide with the groups tours. A guy called Larry and a fourth member who Willie couldn’t recall his name. Willie again was the lead vocalist and elder statesman of the group then aged 35.

Willie’s new ensemble needed a name and they finally chose what they perceived to be a strong and instantly recognizable name when they became ‘McArthur’ in honor of the United States Supreme Commander of the Allied Pacific Forces during World War II, General Douglas McArthur. Through his previously made connections as part of  The 21ST, Willie returned to Canada  with his new ensemble ’McArthur’ securing two performing dates at The Arrows Club in Halifax, Nova Scotia. ‘McArthur’ finally broke up after a period of circa 18 months together with their lasting legacy being a solitary 45 single “It’s So Real/I’ll Never Trust Love Again” which gained a release on the New York based Mainstream subsidiary label, Brown Dog (BD9006) in 1975.

Both sides of the 45 were produced in Detroit by Clyde Clay and Charles ‘Teddy’ Johnson for Funhouse Associates, with Teddy Johnson being an old High School friend of Willie Jones.

The A-side “It’s So Real” was written by the late legendary baritone Saxophonist Andrew ‘Mike’ Terry and William Marvin Smith a respected bass guitarist and one time child protégé of Johnny Mae Mathews and Dave Hamilton. William had previously been a member of Lou Beatty’s La Beat labels house band, The LPT’s (La Beat Production Team) and was later briefly associated with the ill fated Lemon’s families Gold Records. Mike Terry had previously worked with Willie Jones during his time with the 21ST over at Joy Records as a songwriter and arranger but it is the former owner of Joy Records Joe Terrell who is credited as the arranger on McArthur’s ”It’s So Real” side ? The B-side had begun its life under the working title of “If I Live For A 100 Years” but was eventually released using the second part of the hook line “I’ll Never Trust Love Again” written by the songs co-producer Teddy Johnson and late former lead singer of the Falcon’s (Big Wheel) Carlis Sonny Munro. The String arrangements on both sides were provided by The Detroit Symphony. The result is two excellent mid 70’s soulful ballads that have of late been gaining some belated attention and has now become very sought after.

Words By: Dave Welding.

With acknowledgments to: Willie Jones & Kurt Jefferson.

 

 

 

 

Great stuff, Dave

Did Willie mention Joe Terrell and the incident with Mike Terry?

 

Yes but i kinda had to use a certain amount of poetic license with the sleeve notes there was some very dubious goings on back then which although mentioned to me were omitted from the published piece. I'll send you a PM 😉

Fred did mention that Ben Knight also sang on the 2 B.O.S Shock 45's due to Richard Knight being in the 'Pen', i did speak with Ben he too had been a one time member of The Royal Jokers and if memory serves me right was also a friend of the late Stanley Mitchell. I did have cause to speak with Ben a couple of years back but his phone number had been disconnected and when i asked around people realised they had seen him around for awhile, so maybe he had passed ?

Dave

 

 

Edited December 30, 20231 yr by Louise