Soul Britannia

[Guest soul_hull]

over and out

[Scallybob]

Soul music has so little to offer that twenty minutes in we're on Bowie and punk.

That God for all that shite-kept me following proper music.

[Eddie Hubbard]

over and out

Forgot to tape this , is it repeated over w/ end ? Best ,Eddie

[Guest Rowly]

on again @ 12.20AM - BBC4

[Guest]

If any of you guys tape this and convert it to digital I would love to get a copy. I am a broke American with no cabletv, but I've got a wicked downloading habit! Thanks

[Mandy]

First ten minutes was OK .. the rest was crap IMO

[nubes]

Just watched Soul Britannia...the programme touched on the Nothern scene very briefly..what has really got to me is once again is how the scene has been misrepresented Jazzie B claimed the scene was a racist one...he reckoned that he didn't feel that he would be welcomed and that there was not a black face to be seen at Northern soul clubs....I personally don't know where he tried to go and when, but from my own experiences as a female black soulie on the scene in 30 years... i have never come across this...in fact i felt more at ease in the Northern soul clubs than i have ever done in some of the reggae clubs..wouldn't it be great if for once programmes like these which sought to enlighten people actually give a more balanced account...Delx

[Guest Karen Heath]

Just watched Soul Britannia...the programme touched on the Nothern scene very briefly..what has really got to me is once again is how the scene has been misrepresented Jazzie B claimed the scene was a racist one...he reckoned that he didn't feel that he would be welcomed and that there was not a black face to be seen at Northern soul clubs....I personally don't know where he tried to go and when, but from my own experiences as a female black soulie on the scene in 30 years... i have never come across this...in fact i felt more at ease in the Northern soul clubs than i have ever done in some of the reggae clubs..wouldn't it be great if for once programmes like these which sought to enlighten people actually give a more balanced account...Delx

Did he actually say that? I was watching but was blathering on relating a story about Jazzie B so I missed half of what he said! Did he not mean clubs in general?

[nubes]

Did he actually say that? I was watching but was blathering on relating a story about Jazzie B so I missed half of what he said! Did he not mean clubs in general?

I just watched the clip over Karen....there's no mistaking his implication darling...ooh i am steaming....Delxx

[Pete S]

Jazzie B "I used to go to all those parties up North and therewasn't a single black face there and I decided I didn't want any part of this, down South was more of a melting pot". Bye bye.

[Guest Matt Male]

Average White Band, Bowie, The Clash, Simply Red, Culture Club? Is that what is meant by 'across the board'?

What a load of crap.

The only thing that meant anything to me was the appreciation of American artists like Edwin Starr that thousands of British kids love their music.

Jazzie B... you're just a pop singer.

[Guest Karen Heath]

Jazzie B "I used to go to all those parties up North and therewasn't a single black face there and I decided I didn't want any part of this, down South was more of a melting pot". Bye bye.

That's not the same thing is it? Bye bye!

[Guest Karen Heath]

P.S Don't tell anyone but I went to see Culture Club at the time and they were fab.

But they shouldn't be on a soul programme nor should half the other lot!

[Guest mel brat]

Just watched Soul Britannia...wouldn't it be great if for once programmes like these which sought to enlighten people actually give a more balanced account...Delx

Sadly, it would appear that my initial misgivings regarding the motivation behind this series are being realised.

[Spaghetti Weston]

Forgot to tape this , is it repeated over w/ end ? Best ,Eddie

just watched it eddie,what a pile of pants it had hardly anything to do with soul music :angry: black music yes but deffinately not soul :angry: dissapointed

[Guest Adrian]

I'll never understand Imagination.

3 e's whats that all about

[Eddie Hubbard]

on again @ 12.20AM - BBC4

Cheers , just recorded it , not sure if I want to see it now tho' after all the comments .Why do they always make such a pigs ear of any representation of the Soul scene ? Best ,Eddie

[Guest]

I paid for this!!,cant wait for the thousand repete`s then they`ll have it signed in B S L fukcin`waister`s.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Jazzie B "I used to go to all those parties up North and therewasn't a single black face there and I decided I didn't want any part of this, down South was more of a melting pot". Bye bye.

Jazzie B should have tried being a 'pale face' at one of his early parties . I've felt more at home being white at reggae dances in the early 70s. He's just a dickhead who lucked into having musical partners (the white Simon Law and Neil 'Nellee' Hooper) who could write a decent tune. Soul II Soul fell off the chart map as soon as Law and Hooper moved on, which shows you the breadth of old Jazzie's contribution to their music.

Never have I seen such a sharp decline in quality between programmes in a series as there was between the first two here. Having said that, it still 'did what it said on the tin' in that it's called "Soul Britannia", not "Northern Soul Britannia". It's just a shame that it did it so badly second time around.

TONE

Edited February 10, 2007 by TONY ROUNCE

[Steve G]

The missus was watching a re re re run of an old Frost - what a good idea I didn't push to turn it over. Row and sulks avoided.

[Guest espo]

Dissapointed in the second one----it seemed to be more about race issues and pop rather than soul music.

As for Jazzie B-s comments--Where exactly did he go---in the mid 70s at least 40% of the regular nighter goers from my area were coloured.Admittedley the northern scene was predominantly white but maybe thats a reflection of the white to coloured ratio of the country at that time.

Anyway the second one was S***E nuff said

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

As for Jazzie B-s comments--Where exactly did he go

I'm guessing that he went absolutely nowhere at all, in respect of Northern do's - just another example of Zelig-ism by someone who thinks that by saying something on TV or radio, or even in print, it automatically becomes true.

Another great example of this is Norman Jay's somewhat laughable sleeve note on the Salsoul CD reissue of Eddie Holman's "Night To Remember" CD. Can't remember it word for word, but he talks of going to a do up North in the 70s and being astounded that 'here was a scene playing exactly the same kind of records as I'd been playing at my own dances in London", or something like that.

I have never met anyone, black or white, who knew Norman Jay in the 70s, and neither do I recall hearing about or finding out about Norm's alternative Northern scene - which, living in London and collecting both Soul and Reggae records back then (still do, as it goes) I surely would have done at least once. Not can I find any reference to such things in back issues of Echoes or Blues And Soul..

The correct technical term for this is "Dutch Elms Disease"

TONE

PS - incidentally, if Norman or anyone else who 'attended' happens to read this and can provide proof that his dances did exist, in the form of flyers or something, I will happily apologise without reservation...

[Guest Scarborosoul]

Jazzie B what a TW@T How the hell can you be into soul and be racist???? Parties what fecking parties???? No blacks ffs where was Vernon lol. Mick Hucknell once claimed he had been to the Casino, Bollox!!! And what the F**** was Pete Townsend burbelling about????? he sounded like he had had too many green and clears!!! I couldnt go to Lowton so i stopped up and watched this shyte once again Mr Levine was involved ffs the guy has been off the scene for years why didnt they interview someone with a bit of nounce. CRAP CRAP CRAP it will give anyone not into the scene a totally wrong impression of what we are about!

[Guest Simon]

I'm gonna go against the tide & say i quite enjoyed it, not to be pedantic i just did.

Maybe it's because i have an eclectic taste but there were a lot of groups & artists in there that i like, agreed it was probablly more of a pop music prog than a total Soul one but still found it interesting/enjoyable.

I agree about some people re-writing history who weren't there but i've heard these kind of peeps bullsh*t for so long that i take it with a pinch of salt.

My fave bit of the programme was seeing that Skinhead's lovely green/olive harrington at the start, haven't seeen one that colour for a long time, i want one!

Simon

[Guest Byrney]

Just watched Soul Britannia...the programme touched on the Nothern scene very briefly..what has really got to me is once again is how the scene has been misrepresented Jazzie B claimed the scene was a racist one...he reckoned that he didn't feel that he would be welcomed and that there was not a black face to be seen at Northern soul clubs....I personally don't know where he tried to go and when, but from my own experiences as a female black soulie on the scene in 30 years... i have never come across this...in fact i felt more at ease in the Northern soul clubs than i have ever done in some of the reggae clubs..wouldn't it be great if for once programmes like these which sought to enlighten people actually give a more balanced account...Delx

Bang on Del. Got the feeling he never really tried it - but I guess Wigan in the 70s wasnt London enough for awld Jazzy. Never been my experience especially as being part of the notts crowd, a good few of the team are black.

Re Northern Soul you'll never get a ballanced view with a media that deals in stereotypes as conduit to communicating a message in a short space of time, interesting juxtaposition with the Stafford Clip of the chap buying chips as an opener to what was happening in the north- its what we do oop past Watford Duck

[Scallybob]

I was listening to Five Live yesterday and Stuart Marconie was on plugging his new book. It essentially says that people in the south sneer at people in the north despite never having been there.

When Trevor Nelson did that bit years ago I was ready to kick the telly in. Steve Davis (snooker player) once mocked Robbie Lawson on a Radio 2 programme allegedly about Northern with a sarky "I suppose you had to be there". Quite. Did they actually interview anyone who'd been there? Answers on a postcard to "No They Didn't Competition, London".

These whoppers know nothing of this scene and were never on it but the BBC seem to think they are qualified to comment. Levine should stick to talking about the Mecca. Why don't they find the real people for these things? The ones who carry the torch for a forgotten genre of music that would all be in landfill by now but for the likes of Manship, Anderson, Searling et al? For Christ's sake it's not hard to go to Lowton or Prestwich or Brighouse or Annesley or to find Sam or Ginger. Perhaps Marconie's right, they are scared they can't get a decent latte north of Hendon.

As ever, it's London's opinion of their little insular world.

[Guest Karen Heath]

Jazzie B...the new Robert Elms!

[Guest Karen Heath]

He's just a dickhead who lucked into having musical partners (the white Simon Law and Neil 'Nellee' Hooper) who could write a decent tune.

TONE

Hi Tone

I used to know Simon Law (have lost touch with him over the last few years) with his long ginger dreadlocks!

Did you know him too? He was a really lovely, modest and unassuming guy.

[manus]

Just watched Soul Britannia...the programme touched on the Nothern scene very briefly..what has really got to me is once again is how the scene has been misrepresented Jazzie B claimed the scene was a racist one...he reckoned that he didn't feel that he would be welcomed and that there was not a black face to be seen at Northern soul clubs....I personally don't know where he tried to go and when, but from my own experiences as a female black soulie on the scene in 30 years... i have never come across this...in fact i felt more at ease in the Northern soul clubs than i have ever done in some of the reggae clubs..wouldn't it be great if for once programmes like these which sought to enlighten people actually give a more balanced account...Delx

I felt really angry at Jazzie's B's comments too as I can't recall any door policies based on colour or anything else and if anyone had of tried it they would have been very quickly run of the scene. Colour was not an issue it was all about the music.

Have to agree with Tony Rounce as the quality decline between the first show and the second was really marked. The light shining in the eyes of Eric Burdon and Chris Farlowe as they talked about the music they loved was a joy to behold and I'm sure was an emotion instantly recognisable to all Soul fans and helped to make the first show really enjoyable.

The second show was very messy and seemed to have an agenda we heard Jazzie B's negative comments on the Northern scene and alleged prejudice

and then the "This England" footage was shown and surprise , surprise it only used footage of white dancers. Very selective that.

I did like the footage of mixed groups dancing to ska and reggae and the three skinheads walking across the terraces really took me back. That was the Gallowgate end at St James Park and the three blokes were fairly well known at the time. The smallest one at the back was Colin "Proudy" Proud

who came to a few rare Soul do's in the seventies.

All in all though a real let down after the promise of the first show

All the best

Manus

[Guest mel brat]

As ever, it's London's opinion of their little insular world.

What was it I was saying before...? I forget...

[Guest Matt Male]

In some ways this programme has done us a favour.

We debate on here all the time about whether the term 'northern soul' is still relevent, well i think this programme proved it is. When you tell someone you're into Northern Soul (and obviously in the eyes of those producers as well) they instantly think rare black and black influenced American music of the 60s, 70s, 80s etc... If you say you're into 'soul' thesedays you'll be taken as liking M People, Simply Red, even Soul 2 Soul :angry: .

Thanks BBC.

Edited February 10, 2007 by Matt Male

[Guest Ranger]

That's not the same thing is it? Bye bye!

As the piece on Northren Soul comes to an end the segment runs....

Voiceover ' Northern Soul was black music driving a white scene, their new black neighbours were not welcome'

Jazzie B 'There ain't a black person there. I remember trying to go up north and be involved in these kinds of parties but you just really wasn't welcome........ as I think about it now it's a good thing I didn't get into them clubs'

The voiceover then goes onto say that Northern Soul reflected the fragmentations and divisions in society over a clip of an Enoch Powell speech.

It was a cheap way of changing the subject and introducing the subject of racism to show what black UK based musicians were up against and I deeply resent it's implications.

[Scallybob]

It doesn't help when Levine perpetuates the myth that everyone on the scene worked in dead-end jobs in "dismal" northern towns.

I live in Wigan, it's not dismal (well it is today but where isn't when it's raining!) and I've always had a decent job. I don't care what colour anybody is. No that's not true-I don't like my tunes being substandard white covers of proper records. But Paul Anka's OK.

Northern Soul was developed in the youth clubs playing Motown, Bobby Hebb, Phillip Mitchell and the like and was our rebellion against Smashie and Nicey telling us to buy pap. The fact that the London-based music industry never bothered to try and understand it (not enough money in it, see) means it's still just patronised as thick northern blokes in baggy pants.

Radio 1 refused to play Tavares-It Only Takes a Minute but played paedophile Jonathan King's version. I rest my case.

[Guest]

First ten minutes was OK .. the rest was crap IMO

It was total pants!What the hell has Bowie and Dexys midnight runners to do with soul music!Who was the researcher for this programme?Do they know anything about soul music.Thursday night they played a soul britannia later show with live acts.It was pretty good.

[Pete S]

It was total pants!What the hell has Bowie and Dexys midnight runners to do with soul music!Who was the researcher for this programme?Do they know anything about soul music.Thursday night they played a soul britannia later show with live acts.It was pretty good.

I think they used the example of Bowie doing a soul album to illustrate how it got fans to move from one kind of music (Bowie fans into glam rock) and listen to another (Bowie doing soul then yhinking it's good and discovering proper soul artists) I've always been a massive Bowie fan but I can't stand the Young Americans album. It is a soul album, it was recorded at Sigma Sound in Philly using the best black and latin musicians and singers, and his voice is superb but the songs are substandard. A track that never made the album, It's Gonna be Me, is one of the most intense white soul tracks you'll ever hear. And why they used a ropey version of John I'm Only Dancing Again, no idea. As for Dexys, again, they produced their own brand of soul, if you ever see that video of the tour they did called The projected Passion Review you'll find it hard not to think they have soul but they are not a soul group. They were used as an example of how soul music infurenced them.

[Guest mel brat]

Never have I seen such a sharp decline in quality between programmes in a series as there was between the first two here...

TONE

"....Our old mate Mel Brat's being a bit quiet today, innneeee? "

Hello Tony?, Mel Brat here.... How's the humble pie?

[Bearsoul]

JAZZ-E-B FOR BULLSHIT.....I REMEMBER PLENTY OF BLACK GUYS AND GALS AT WIGAN . I USED TO GET ON THE TRAIN AT SHREWSBURY AND THERE WE'RE PLENTY OF BLACK SOUL-HEADS ON ALREADY, FROM LONDON,RUGBY,COVENTRY AND WOLVERHAMPTON...NOT FORGETTING BIRMINGHAM. I REMEMBER A GIRL FROM COVENTRY WHO ALWAYS HAD A TAPE OF WHAT SEARLING HAD PLAYED THE WEEK BEFORE SO IF I'D MISSED A WEEK SHE USED TO PLAY THEM TO ME, THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I HEARD 'COUNTRY GIRL' WISH I COULD REMEMBER HER NAME, DON'T KNOW WHAT JAZZE-B CALLS NORTHERN PARTIES...PERHAPS HE MEANS WATFORD !

CHRIS M

[Guest mel brat]

If you say you're into 'soul' thesedays you'll be taken as liking M People, Simply Red, even Soul 2 Soul :angry: .

As early as 1977 the late Dave Godin was predicting how it was very likely that even the term "Soul" would be taken from us, through popular misuse. This is one of the reasons I suggested that Soul fans demand some input into the writing of our own "history" in my earlier posts on this BBC series...

[Guest]

David Bowie..oh dear, oh dear, oh dear..

[Guest mooma]

I seem to remember watching this some years ago!! anyone else remember it??

How can that daft idiot "JAZZY B" say there were no black folk at the venues??? MY best mate at the time was black a girl called Val!! He dont know what he's on about or is a total MORON in what he says!!

I have been on the scene for over 40 years and have met lots of different folk all of which are of many different cultures!!!

and YES the second show was a load of CRAP!! soz for my outburst but he got my goat!!!

sue

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

"....Our old mate Mel Brat's being a bit quiet today, innneeee? "

Hello Tony?, Mel Brat here.... How's the humble pie?

[/quote

...Wasn't any left after the way you'd been shovelling it in followiing the first show

I still think that more than a few people on here need to remember that this is not advertised as, nor meant to be, a history of Northern Soul, but rather a history of the evolution of the indigenous version of american black music. (I'm not having a pop at you here, by the way).

Having said that, the irredeemable codswallop that made up most of last night's show was, well, irredeemable.

Be warned that the last instalment is directed by Don 'I invented reggae and punk so I probably invented British Soul, too' Letts. You may want to set your timer for the latest Midsomer Murders repeat now...

TONE

PS to whoever it was that pooh-pooh'd Hucnall's claim to have gone to the Casino - A few reliable Mancs I know have said in the past that they do remember him going, let's face it with that hair he'd be hard to miss, too...

Edited February 10, 2007 by TONY ROUNCE

[Pete S]

Tone - I have Mick Hucknall on video saying the words "I never actually went to a Wigan allnighter but I knew a lot of people who did" - from the Whistle Test n.s. feature 1988.

[Guest soul_hull]

Just watched Soul Britannia...the programme touched on the Nothern scene very briefly..what has really got to me is once again is how the scene has been misrepresented Jazzie B claimed the scene was a racist one...he reckoned that he didn't feel that he would be welcomed and that there was not a black face to be seen at Northern soul clubs....I personally don't know where he tried to go and when, but from my own experiences as a female black soulie on the scene in 30 years... i have never come across this...in fact i felt more at ease in the Northern soul clubs than i have ever done in some of the reggae clubs..wouldn't it be great if for once programmes like these which sought to enlighten people actually give a more balanced account...Delx

jazzie b's comments were a disgrace. in fact, the footage they used while he was talking was the old stuff from the casino, but the the usual black guy that you see - edited out!

jazzie b was saying that as a black guy that he didn't feel welcome in a club full of white northerners - what did he expect? everyone to start talking patois and growing dreads? (sorry for stereotyping). this was north england in the 1970s, there simply weren't a great deal of black people around, and those that were had no problems at soul do's.

the whole issue of northern soul was dismissed at Jazzie's comment about it being 'non-black' and unwelcoming - and from there on the show focused on london and reggae. to be quite honest - the show angered me - it should have been reggae britannia.

oh yeah, and Soul II soul are fooking shyte as well.

up yours 'jazzie b'.

[Simon M]

Just zoomed through this.. Initial reaction for me was "Dear me Stuart Cosgrove and his mate Ceasar could have spanked this " ....

sorry to anyone involved but a poor effort

Simon

Edited February 10, 2007 by Simon M

[Godzilla]

At the risk of being torn to shreds by the baying mob... ...

I thought that there were some really good bits. Particularly enjoyed seeing the footage of Cymande.

I agree that ol' Jazzy was talking pants though. Most black kids I knew in the 70s just thought Northern Soul said nothing to them. That was certainly the case with the black kids I went to school with anyway. On the whole they were more interested in reggae and to a lesser extent funk. A lot of my school chums were influenced by their older brothers and sisters and they wanted music that was a bit more political and representive of their culture, so it was more a case of choice than being excluded.

Godz

[Guest 71TRSC]

The BBC points of view message board link is below. I suggest if you feel strongly about it you register and if enough people vent their spleen they might realise they have made a mistake. I wouldnt mention if you havent got a tv license though...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview/F1951566

[Guest Dr Bob Jones]

Well, well, and well. It seems after a fairly inviting episode 1, the beeb in their unwise wisdom decided to degrade Soul in the UK by making meaningless association with 'faces' of UK popular music. Why , oh why don't these producers do their research properly. Never has the UK Soul scene been so misrepresented than in Episode 2. Made by people who literally haven't got a clue! Complete ignorance not to ask the right questions to the right people.

Btw you can leave comments on the Soul Brittania/BBC web site about this- I suggest we get rid of all our pent up anger on there by going to :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/soulbritannia/

Bottom right hand corner- click on comments- they need their arses kicked that's for sure.

Regards

Dr Bob Jones

'I was there'

[Pete S]

Well, well, and well. It seems after a fairly inviting episode 1, the beeb in their unwise wisdom decided to degrade Soul in the UK by making meaningless association with 'faces' of UK popular music. Why , oh why don't these producers do their research properly. Never has the UK Soul scene been so misrepresented than in Episode 2. Made by people who literally haven't got a clue! Complete ignorance not to ask the right questions to the right people.

Btw you can leave comments on the Soul Brittania/BBC web site about this- I suggest we get rid of all our pent up anger on there by going to :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/soulbritannia/

Bottom right hand corner- click on comments- they need their arses kicked that's for sure.

Regards

Dr Bob Jones

'I was there'

Unfortunately they are going to be picking and choosing which comments show up on their website

[Guest Matt Male]

George Michael next week....

[Cunnie]

Sadly i missed the 1st episode so i can't comment on it.

As for last nights episode IMO it was poorly researched & was obviously aimed at a mainstream audience with the inclusion of the likes of Bowie, Hucknell, Rolands, Boy George etc.

Think that a previous comment by Tony Rounce hit the nail on the head, the programme was called Soul Britannia & not Northern Soul Britannia.

As for Jazzy B's comments, were they directed at the Northern Soul scene or at Northern England in general? Also willing to bet that Jazzy gave a lengthy interview & the BBC chose to use his comments as they were controversial.

Just had a quick look on the Link given by Bob Jones & noticed that there is a link to this site so the BBC obviously know that we exist so if they plan anything in the future perhaps they might ask us 1st.

Sure there are enough people on this site with media influences who could put them right in a constructive way regarding the current Northern & Modern Soul scene for any future programs.

Over to you Pete, Tony, Dr Bob etc.