Robbk

And that demo was probably played as a guide for The Temptations' 1965 recording.

I would guess that the Eddie Holland Demo above IS a Motown Record Corp. Demo record. Is it on acetate or vinyl? It is a demo, rather than a Jobete Music Co. acetate made solely for proof of ownership of the song. It is a strange one, in that the song title is typed in red ink, like the Jobete Music proof of ownership acetates were. Usually, Motown Corp. acetates were typed all in black, as I remember, whether they were acetates or vinyl demos. The vinyl demos were usually labeled using a recording studio label. Earlier, Motown stamped "Hitsville Recording Studios" on the creme-coloured blank labels (as this one), and, later, they used printed studio labels. From what I remember, most of those from the time of this 1965 Eddie Holland demo used black typewriter ink for all info entries (no red for the songtitle - to avoid confusion as to whether or not it was a Jobete acetate. Maybe this was a slip up, OR Motown needed a demo acetate in such a hurry that they just used the 2nd Jobete acetate for an emergency Motown demo? I thought that "Love is What You Make It" was originally recorded in 1963. The fact that it has a March 1965 stamp on it leads me to believe that they were using it for a demo for another artist to record it, especially given that Eddie Holland's singing career was officially over by then. I wonder who recorded it in 1965?

Most, if not all, of those same records, I had in my own hands. They are Jobete Music acetates, which were just made soon after they were recorded, just to prove ownership of the publishing rights. The particular artists who sang them were not important, to prove publishing rights ownership. So, the artist name was never written on that type of acetate. Yes, the artists' names were added after 1980 (which was the last time I saw them at Motown). They started "disappearing" from Motown, and appearing on auction in the late '80s and early '90s. There were usually 2 Jobete Music acetates made for each song, from what I remember. From 1961-69 or so, the cloudy, creme-coloured label with red ribbon, typewriter typed song titles, were made for proof of Jobete Music ownership. In addition, there was or were often one or two, or even more, Motown Corp. acetates and one, two or more vinyl studio demo records pressed for each song. Motown acetates and demos usually (almost always) had the artist listed as well. Those virtually always used black type. Some Motown acetates were made months, and sometimes, years later. Also, many non-Motown (bootleg or personal) acetates and studio demos were made many, many years later, but are sometimes sold as "original Motown recordings, from the year of original recording". Beware of those.

Yes, Andy, I had just about ALL of those particular acetates in my hands at Motown in the mid and late 1970s, while working on "The From The Vaults Project".

As I recall, Berry was one of the "Quality Control Panel". I never heard of him "overruling" any of their decisions. But I would guess that he may have done that on a few Chris Clark or Diana Ross songs.

Unbelievably, given the plethora of excellent recordings that Motown left in the can from 1962-1970, that might even be a gross understatement. I find it quite impossible to even believe.

Right. The top one is the West Coast styrene pressing from Monarch, in L.A. The bottom one looks like a Midwest pressing from RCA (Indianapolis).

I'm from Chicago, and I can't answer that question. I'd like to see someone else on this forum lead us to such place, IF it exists. It's times like this when we realise just how valuable a resource Bob Abrahamian was.

They're all legit. I've seen several of all three, as far back as the late '60s. I got the blue one in 1965.

If we're going to use a 10-year period, I'd use 1963-1972.

1960s was more soulful. '70s had Disco and lots of new "plastic" instruments. '60s still had traditional Blues and plunky pianos, rather than "keyboards". the '70s music was far away from what i was used to from the '40s, '50s and '60s. Funk was "Soulful", but, I felt that a lot of the '70s Soul lacked individualism and deep feeling.

Jan Bradley or Major Lance Major Lance or Otis Leavill Major Lance or Gene Chandler Vera Lynn or The Checkers or The Robins Leadbelly or The Originals The Contours or William Weatherspoon The Monitors or The Temptations Gladys Knight & The Pips or Jimmy Ruffin Darrell Banks or Jackie Wilson Billy Butler & Enchanters or Major Lance

Marlena Shaw or Marvin & Tammi or Messengers Frank Wilson or Chris Clark Chris Clark or The Underdogs Brenda Holloway or Mickey McCullers The Marvelettes or Baby Washington The Marvelettes or The Velvelettes Emanuel Lasky or Silky Hargeaves The Two Friends or Tammi Terrell Brenda Holloway or Mary Wells Betty Everett or Ramona King, or Merry Clayton The Pirates (Temptations) or Nolan Strong & Diablos

Stevie Wonder or Darrell Banks Darrell Banks or Ike & Tina Turner Al Kent or Jackie Wilson Four Tops or The Magnificents Kim Weston or Alice Clark Cynthia & Imaginations or Thelma Lindsey

Ed Wingate had nothing to do with Shelby Singleton's Inspirations' release, so there was no connection from Polydor picking up that, to Polydor picking up Wingate's Golden World Holidays, and Ric Tic Edwin Starr and J.J. Barnes.

Wow! I feel important! Here, a "furriner", I, a non-Northern Soulie. represent the one-vote lead! I should have asked for bribes on which way to vote, before voting! I could have made some scratch!

Klopt! I agree 100 % with that statement. But, I still think that the advert drawing is the man in the photo.

I doubt there was a "gesture" of any kind made by the partnership of Ed Wingate (who had no reason to do Berry Gordy a favour) and Gene Redd, who had been "fired" instantly, without any warning, when Gordy shut down Jobete New York's office in mid 1964). I rather think that the ownership of publishing rights for "Baby That's a Groove" were very clear, because it had been sold to Jobete, and the publishing rights registered with BMI had been finalised BEFORE Gordy's shutting down NY Jobete Music, while the rights to "Goose Pimples"/"Touch Me, Hold Me, Kiss Me" were clouded and muddy, as the registration procedure may have still been in process. In 1968, AFTER Berry had now bought out Ric Tic, the last of Wingate's record companies, he may have had his brother, Robert (Jobete's director) research "Goose Pimples"/"Touch Me, Hold Me, Kiss Me" in house, and they found that Jobete had first registered that song under its working title, "Touch Me, Hold Me, Kiss Me", in early-mid 1964. So, they owned the rights to it. Jobete's people further discovered that James Crosby had been one of the writers, forgotten by Redd, or his person who sent the credits to the "Goose Pimples" printer. OR, most likely, they just added Crosby because his name was on the original credits listing. When he registered "Goose Pimples" with BMI in 1966, Redd may have been unaware that the registration of that song had been completed in 1964, under the title, "Touch Me, Hold Me, Kiss Me". He changed the title to "Goose Pimples" to publish it under Myto Music, so Motown's people might not be alerted, and claim it was their property.

Do you mean the three aforesaid records released (The Shiny Brothers, Paris and Sandy Wynns)? Come to think of it, I seem to remember also an instrumental (both sides) release, also produced by Al Capps, by an instrumental group (somebody and The........). It wasn't published by Jobete Music, nor HRB, but another L.A. Soul music publisher (perhaps Capps' own publishing co.?).

She had to use the "J" in her name to distinguish her from the famous Jazz singer and organ player, Shirley Scott from Philadelphia (who was very big in the 1950s and '60s. Redd's writers were based in New York, and their artists were all East Coasters (Roy Handy-NY, Prophets Wash. D.C.). So, I'd guess that the non-famous, Shirley J. Scott, was from The East Coast (NY-NJ Metro Area?). No facts here - Just some theories: Jobete Music may have bought that song in Berry Gordy's buyout of Ed Wingate's Golden World Records in 1966, or his 2nd Wingate buyout (Ric Tic) in 1968. OR, the song actually may have originally been written by Gene Redd, Rose Marie McCoy, and James Crosby for Jobete Music in 1964, when that trio worked in Redd's production group in Jobete's New York office, and Redd took that song with him to Ed Wingate's operation in 1966, when Wingate partnered up with Redd in his new Stephanye label, which was a Golden World subsidiary. Then, the printing of Wingate's "Myto" Music could have been a missprint, because the people getting the record info to the printer just thought it was a song written by Redd's group in 1966, while they were with Wingate. I think that may well have also happened with "That Was My Girl" by The Parliaments, written by George Clinton's crew, which sounds clearly like it was written by them in the New York office of Jobete Music in 1964, ostensibly for The Temptations. Clinton brought it with them to Golden World in late 1965. The ownership of both of those songs may have been uncertain, as those songs may have been tentatively bought from their producers, Gene Redd and George Clinton, by Jobete Music, but the transaction didn't go through in mid 1964, as Berry Gordy shut down the New York office, immediately, with no warning, when Raynoma pressed up lots of copies of Mary Wells' "My Guy", and sold them to East Coast Distributors to finance her office's operations after Berry had cut off the flow of operating cash to her. Jobete (Motown) DIDN'T buy all the songs written by their affiliated writers in New York's and L.A's Jobete Music office, as noted by considering all the Finesse Music (Hal Davis and Marc Gordon), Parlar Music (George Clinton), and Stephanye Music(Gene Redd) published songs that came from the same crews during that same period that they worked for Jobete. Motown may have later asserted their rights to "Goose Pimples",- possibly under it's original working title, which they may even have published under that name in 1964, and Redd may have changed the title to "Goose Pimples" to release it under Myto Music in 1966. Just some ideas on possible explanations.

Silky Hargreaves was a Black man. I saw a few photos of him years ago. I can't remember the source. Furthermore, I am an artist, and understand how difficult it is to make everything in a photo look the same in a drawing. To me, that advert drawing is an excellent portrayal of the man in the photo, and I have no doubt that they are one in the same person.

Yes that's Sax Kari. Hargreaves probably wasn't even alive when that earliest photo of Kari was taken.

Not on "Lucky To Be Loved By You" - unreleased Thelma cut. I always thought he was Black and saw pictures that said the person was him, and it was an Afro-American. He didn't sound "White" to me, on D-Town and Wheelsville USA, or Dearborn, at least, from what I remember.

No, not Bateman's publisher when he worked for Motown, but, Bateman's personal publishing company for his whole career AFTER leaving Motown. "Brianbert" was the production team name for Brian Holland and Robert Bateman (also their team name even after Freddie Gorman was added). In early 1962, businessman and Numbers Runner, Wilbur Golden, planned to start up a record company and recording studio. He recruited several Motown production people, including Brian and Eddie Holland. They told Robert Bateman to quit Motown, and come along with them to Golden's new Correc-Tone Records. Bateman quit Motown, and signed with Golden. But then, he found out that The Holland Brothers had been enticed by Berry to stay with Motown, by buying each a new Cadillac, and giving them a high raise in salary. Bateman, not knowing that Brian wasn't coming, had already set up Brianbert Music for them, as a pair. He just ended up changing the ownership only to himself, deciding that it would be a bit of an insult to Brian, for having "stabbed him in the back". The bad feeling lasted only a short time. But Bateman keptr that publisher for the rest of his life. Popcorn Wylie also came to Correc-Tone. The Supremes moonlighted there, singing backgrounds. William Weatherspoon was a writer there, as was Janie Bradford (under the pen name of "Nikki Todd". There have been rumours that James Velvet was Bateman's ex-fellow Satintone (lead singer), James Ellis.

Yes, that's the one. As to the timing, it's hard to tell. In the late 60s, I heard that Doc Records was owned by a doctor or dentist who lived in L.A. but used a Philadelphia Area address for the label. Now we know why. Helen R. Blumberg ran her non-profit Corporation there, which was dedicated to providing dental care to disadvantaged children. Maybe she provided some funding for the L.A. dentist's record company, based on his promise to produce some records promoting dental care. The dentist hired L.A. producer/songwriter, Al Capps, who produced both Pop and Soul music, as his producer/A&R man. Capps was currently working for Jobete Music's L.A. office in 1964, when Doc started,, - thus, the connection to Doc's getting to lease the Paris and Sandy Wynns records from Hal Davis and Marc Gordon. The latter pair's Finesse Productions had the rights to release those cuts on any personal label or lease them to someone else, because Motown didn't schedule them for release within 6 months of Jobete's buying their rights and publishing the songs. The fact that the dentist's hiree, Al Capps wrote "The Brush", leads me to believe that The surf group, The Shiny Brothers' version was first, in mid 1964, and The Smiley Brothers' version, produced by Bob Finiz, Helen Blumberg's hiree, in Philadelphia, came later, in late 1964, or early 1965. It does sound a little like early '65. I KNOW that Smiley Brothers' lead singer's voice so well. I'd bet they were a well-known Philadelphia group (not The Dreamlovers, but one of that level of stardom). I'd love to hear the Shiny Brothers' "Surf version", in The Jan & Dean style. They sound verylike one of the main L.A. Surf groups (maybe The Fantastic Baggys or The Ripchords (Bruce(Johnston & Terry (Melcher)). They weren't good enough to be Jan & Dean or The Beach Boys.